Premium nutrients - Real deal or hype???

[MrBungle]

The way I look at it you can spend a fair amount of money for ingredients and figure out how to make your own nutrients, or you can spend a fair amount of money and figure out how to use what someone else made, and tested, and marketed....

No guarantees either way unless you spend time figuring out how the plants react to what you are giving them... dialing it in as folks like to say

Its about how resourceful the grower is willing to be... Some like to expand their horizons... and for some folks it hurts to think

 

[Only Ornamental]

...and for some folks it hurts to think

Well said. Why can't stupidity hurt instead?

 

[rshackleferd]

I know a little about since i have been making my own for a good while now. Best way to know what your buying is look at the percentages for each element the plant uses. There is a cheap way and a good way to make your own. Either you can give your plants the minimum amount it needs or make sure there is a little extra without locking out other elements which is the best way to go. This is where the diyer and a good nute company come in and "dial" in the perfect ratio. Here is a list of vital elements via compounds your plant needs;

Nitrogen N
Phosphorus P
Potassium K
Magnesium Mg
Calcium Ca
Sulfur S
Iron Fe
Manganese
Boron B
Zinc Zn
Copper Cu
Molybdenum Mo

 

[Orrie]

'inert' or 'other ingredients' = hype

There is no way to know for sure what is causing the plant to react when the formula is not known.


Mix and match your own nutrient line sounds good as long as one can be assured of a pure unadulterated product from the start.

Premium Nutrients? buyer beware is an understatement IMO

 

[Drewsif]

Botanicare and GH mame buds that taste like Botanicare and GH. Pretty sure vegamatrix doesn't leave a chemical taste signature

 

[chomsky]

Pretty close to done with these girls... DNA Chocolope, These were grown in Canna Coco Full line.... I also use mammoth P microbes. The nugs are insanely heavy and dense.

 

[Only Ornamental]

@chomsky: Your post doesn't answer the initial question. See, your buds could be insane because premium nutrients are truly the real deal... but maybe you just chose the genetics wisely, use the overlord's grow equipment, or you're simply a good grower?
Even if you only got such good results when growing with Canna Coco and Mammoth doesn't necessarily mean that those products are above and beyond a basic nutrient mix. It could be as simple as your skills, your grow-room, your genetics, and your fertilisers being in harmony.

 

[chomsky]

@chomsky: Your post doesn't answer the initial question. See, your buds could be insane because premium nutrients are truly the real deal... but maybe you just chose the genetics wisely, use the overlord's grow equipment, or you're simply a good grower?
Even if you only got such good results when growing with Canna Coco and Mammoth doesn't necessarily mean that those products are above and beyond a basic nutrient mix. It could be as simple as your skills, your grow-room, your genetics, and your fertilisers being in harmony.

I wasn't posting the pics to prove anything. Just showing what I did with Canna I agree completely all the other variables play a major role. I spend a ton of time and effort keeping it all tight that being said my take on this whole nutrient thing is it really doesn't matter much. A good grower can do good with Lucas Canna or amended soil and rain water. I think the best thing to do is have fun growing and dial in what ever your pleasure is the best you can. I'd rather spend less on nutrients but in the big picture it's worth it for me. I like growing with Canna.

 

[Old Toker]

Why can't stupidity hurt instead?

If you ever read the Darwin Awards.....you will see that it often does.
https://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2016-04.html

 

[mittensmitten]

triple diesel with H & G

 

[Rondon]

I think Canna makes really good clean products. I use their coco coir as the base for my growing medium. Canna has designed a system for the grower which gives good results.

They supply the grower with all the advantages needed. Growing in their coco you start off right away with a nice clean charged coir. Their nutrient solutions are tailored to meet the coco's needs. Canna doesn't want it's users adding perlite because you reduce the cec exchange and the coir's ability to release potassium at a set rate. The Cannazym helps correct over watering most often by beginners and their weak root system. Next is the Boost. It has some sugars and amino acids in it which are good for the plants. The main active ingredient is triacontanol. Triacontanol can be found on ebay cheap. These products offer the grower a good system. Tria has been tested on plants since the late 70's. Only in the cannabis industry is this a new and unheard of product.

The HYPE. Canna or other high priced nutes somehow use special plant "Chelates" with such purity that is not found in other fertilizers.

The Truth. Micro-nutrients have been chelated for over 60 years. A chelate is like a force field around micro-nutrients. It does two things. Keeps the micro in suspension when in the stock solution and it allows the plant to take the nutrients up easily. A company bragging about their "chelates" is like a company bragging they put fast acting nitrogen in their fertilizer to make the plant green. If you didn't put chelates in fertilizer bottles you would end up with a pile of muck in your solution jugs. Canna and House and Garden both use "Dissolvine" chelated micro-nutrients. Check them out. Anybody can buy them.
https://www.akzonobel.com/dissolvin...olvine Product Guide EN 2015_tcm108-37894.pdf

Canna and House and Garden both use Yara as their source for calcium and nitrogen. Anybody can buy those too.
https://www.yara.us/agriculture/products/

Does Canna or any other high cost fertlizer contain special "chelates" only they have access to? NO.
Do people really believe Canna doesn't over hype it's products...............I guess everybody is laughing at this.
Does Canna or any other expensive nute give quality above all other fertilizers? NO.

Growers that impress me can go into the grow store and grab any fertilizer brand off the shelf and make it work through understanding plant nutrition.

The author of post #5/6 in this thread had it right. He's in the advanced section talking about what is in nutrient solutions at the "slownickel lounge". How the chemicals in those work. Ratios you should run. Looking at soil tests. And here we are on this thread unable to get beyond a label on a bottle.

8 pages in and NOT ONE PERSON ever said Canna didn't work. They simply said it was "HYPE". Here's the definition for "hype".
NOUN

mass noun
informal
1Extravagant or intensive publicity or promotion.
‘his first album hit the stores amid a storm of hype’
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.1count noun A deception carried out for the sake of publicity.
‘is his comeback a hype?’
More example sentences
VERB

[WITH OBJECT]
informal
Promote or publicize (a product or idea) intensively, often exaggerating its benefits.
‘an industry quick to hype its products’
‘they were hyping up a new anti-poverty idea’

Sounds like Canna's advertising too me.


The truth is Canna works no better or worse than other brands. Does Canna hype it's products beyond it's abilities? YES

Just drop the mic and walk walk away. Truthbomb!!!

 

[Rondon]

FWIW... I have "met Canna" at the Spannabis show many times and friend has visited their research facility. Lots of nice people with PhDs, no hype, no bullshit products. If you have to pay "premium prices" it is simply because it is imported.

I also use GHE, because it is really good, anything good enough for NASA to use on a space station is probably good enough for me.

Recently I had a good chat with Growth Technology's R&D guy, really interesting conversation that reinforced my trust in GT as well. He told me specifically that "All the nutrient brands on the market are within 5% of each other". He also told me that "his" new Coco nutrient would definitely out perform Canna and GHE and came up with the one reason that I would believe... It is all the normal nutes, plus some Organic magic stuff (inc Humic) that boosts it up a (significant) bit.

There are also differences between the compounds used by each manufacturer to achieve the same result, some compounds are more expensive than others, different manufacturers prioritise profit over excellence. I remember reading that good nutrient brands use real piss, lower quality nutrients use fake chemical "piss" for N.

Is his name Carl Barry? If so..I met him myself. He made the rounds in America a long time ago. Kinda like Harley Smith is to (was) HDI...Dr. Barry is to Growth Technology. Hes got a book on Hydroponic Nutrient Solutions. Good read if you can find it. The ultimate book but dated for making up your own hydroponic fertilizer is Hydroponic Food Production. By Dr. Howard Resh. Chock full of info. I stole it from my local library decades ago when I was 17. Anyways Barry came up with the one part Ionic as well as the classic Clonex. Amongst others. Smart guy. Knows his shit.

 

[Rondon]

The next "big thing" ( its nothing new) will be..and mark my words...Amino Acid micro nutrient chelation. Watch!!!

 

[Rondon]

Growth Technologies makes Ionic correct??? I trust what you have to say Chaos you always give good advice. Is that the brand thr r&d guy says out performs Canna? Ionic is a premium nute but is much more affordable than Canna. Seems interesting. I'm still leaning to Jacks for my next run but want to look at Ionic too. Hmmmm I guess my goal (like most of us) is a great easy nute that's affordable. I want to find what works really well and stick with it!!!

Ionic is really good stuff. I used it for a very long time. Back when SGS was the only store in Michigan. It came in white bottles and they touted it as containing nickel...lol. Its damn good but it might as well be a 2 part as it calls for 4 tsp (20 ml. ) to hit 1.2 - 1.4 EC. Thats alot of water in a jug. And I have a guaranteed minimum analysis of both the regular Ionic Grow and Bloom and Ionic for Soil somewhere in my notes...its w/v % as well. HDI American versions. Calcium is low. Real low. It has to be. Its a one part.

 

[DocTim420]

The next "big thing" ( its nothing new) will be..and mark my words...Amino Acid micro nutrient chelation. Watch!!!

Yep, and you are 100% correct about the "nothing new" part. Grow More has produced their "Fuego" line for a few decacdes now. Not too long ago they started marketing "Mendocino Fuego" to Cannabis growers.

https://www.amazon.com/Grow-More-Growmore-Mendocino-Quarts/dp/B00RWWXYAM/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

AMINO ACIDS

L-Amino Acid Bio-Fertilizers • 100% Organic and Natural Fuego

Amino acids are linked together by peptide bonds (co-NH) forming a polypeptide chain, which is the building block of protein.

In addition to this role amino acids when freed of the bond serve as precursors to many important small molecular compounds, including nucleotides*, porphyrins, parts of lipid molecules, several co-enzymes and other Biomolecules.

*Nucleotides-Ester of Nucleoside and phosphoric acid, structural unit of nucleic acid contains sugar, purine and pyrimidine.

As an alternative energy source, amino acids can be degraded in ways that regenerate ATP from Adenosine Diphosphate=ADP or Adenosine Monophosphate=AMP.


Unique Process L-Amino Acid

The unique process Grow More employs in manufacturing Fuego amino acids insures the highest activity. Grow More uses the process of enzyme hydrolysis to precisely cleave the peptide bonds of proteins to release free L-amino acids. The alternative method employed or short cut method uses the acid hydrolysis process, which results in the non-selective break of peptide bonds along with larger protein pieces and polypeptides, this results in incomplete and partial release of L-amino acids. Acid hydrolysis also partially destroys the indole ring of tryptophan, and causes the loss of ammonia from glutamic and asparagine.

This may seem insignificant until one considers that tryptophan biodegrades (by soil microbes) to Indole Acetic Acid, a root growth hormone; Adenine converts to cytokinin a phytohormone. Furthermore only the organic form of Nitrogen- Ammonia is incorporated into the key metabolic pathways of biosynthesis.

Finally acid hydrolysis converts many of the natural occurring amino acid compounds to the D-amino form, which is less active and desirable for use as bio-fertilizer. When plants are under stress due to the demands of increasing yields or environmental conditions such as disease, poor soil or drought, they are less able to absorb mineral nutrients.

Their ability to synthesize their own L-amino acids through thousands of chemical reactions is diminished. In these situations supplemental application of Fuego can significantly reduce the energy drawn on the plants metabolism by contributing a readily available source of L-amino acids.

FUEGO is offered inb several different products, which provide the following benefits:

- Enhanced Cell Division.
- Stimulate Chlorophyll Biosynthesis.
- Retard Plant Senescence
- Increase Yield and Quality

FUEGO PLUS AND BASE

Foliar formula made with L-amino acids micronutrients and enzymes is rapidly absorbed by the surfaces of leaves and translocated within the plant to enhance general vigor, photosynthesis capacity, increase plant tolerance to environmental pests and disease stress.

ANALYSIS

Total Organic Nitrogen - 6%
Amino Acid - 16%
Peptides - 16%
Total Organic Carbon - 16%
Density - 1.13
pH - 4.0

Directions:

Use 3 to 4 lbs. per acre (2 to 4 Kgs per hectare) three times during the growing season.

ww.growmore.com/products/type/amino-acids.html

(add 3rd "w" to make link read "www.")

 

[chomsky]

Something new for me to look into... cool...

 

[DocTim420]

Yep, sources for amino acids are rather varied...and it appears their chelating abilities are not always "equal".

 

[slownickel]

Yep, sources for amino acids are rather varied...and it appears their chelating abilities are not always "equal".

Actually amino chelates have been around a while. Advanced is amino chelates, made by Albion (oops top secret). There are oodles of amino chelates on the market.

The real future is petides, which are even smaller than amino acids.

Stay tuned!

 

[Only Ornamental]

...
The real future is petides, which are even smaller than amino acids.
...

Not really. Peptides are made of at least two amino acids . Small amino acid chains are called oligopeptides, larger ones polypeptides and even larger ones (usually such with a function) are termed proteins. Depending on composition, di-, tri-, tetra-, and pentapeptides (meaning 2, 3, 4, and 5 linked amino acids, respectively) can be more effective chelates than single amino acids or they can be completely useless. Furthermore, the longer the chain, the more expensive they become unless they are the product of protein hydrolysis and hence are composed of rather randomly assorted amino acids. Unfortunately, several of the amino acids with the best chelation properties are amongst the most infrequent ones.

 

[Easy7]

A real deal nutrient would be a 1 part bottle. No 3 bottles or 7 bottles needed. More likely a sludge than a liquid.