Place for Dummies to Hang

[Jbonez]

 

[SeaMaiden]

thats why states have the right to secede. its that whole checks and balances thing. the threat of and the potential loss of revenue is a means to keep the fed in check. with so many scoffing at the mere mention of secession you are plainly telling the federal gov't "keep screwing us over, we'll just keep taking it."

What about going at the root of the problem, instead of taking a 'cut and run' stance? What about engendering change, instead of thinking that the grass might be greener? Sure, it takes energy, commitment, and worst of all, participation beyond signing a petition, but it can be done.

and to those that are critical of people who don't vote... consider for a second that by voting you are reinforcing the status quo and giving credibility to the two party farce. the notion of voting for the lesser of 2 evils is in plain a vote for evil. if you didnt vote or voted 3rd party you would be making a much louder statement about the depth of your discontent.

Oh, ya think? People who don't vote are allowing others to make the decisions for them. In other words, they're allowing those who will be 'bothered' to vote to decide who gains what office and what measures pass. It's not just about parties, we have other issues we vote on.

look at the numbers of the recent election. obama was reelected with less votes than in 2008, first time ever thats happened. there is a number of ways to spin this but one is that people are fed up with the faux 2 party system and see voting is an exercise in futility because red/blue doesnt matter. the policies are largely driven by the same narrow interests.

There are those who discuss this issue with me who say just that, and there are others who say that they simply don't care.

i cant help but notice some peoples posts read like they are patting themselves on the back the whole time. politics is your bag? gee golly whiz. take a number.

I can't help but see that you just can't seem to help yourself when it comes to sniping. Do you need help getting your panties dug out? It would be nice to simply have a discussion without the sniping.

I do believe the federal govt has been over reaching lately. To me the solution means taking away the ability of business to buy govt. No special tax preferences to be bought goes a long way to achieving this. We just had a major setback in this regard with citizens united vs. FEC. To me, this goes against everything a conservative should be about (not implying that I am a conservative, but the people who passed this claim to be). I am going to agree unabashedly with justice Steven's dissent:

"At bottom, the Court's opinion is thus a rejection of the common sense of the American people, who have recognized a need to prevent corporations from undermining self government since the founding, and who have fought against the distinctive corrupting potential of corporate electioneering since the days of Theodore Roosevelt. It is a strange time to repudiate that common sense. While American democracy is imperfect, few outside the majority of this Court would have thought its flaws included a dearth of corporate money in politics."

This needs to be the first thing to go IMO.

Absolutely agreed. We have another issue that goes to the heart of this as well, and that is the ability of corporations to get 'their' people placed into appointed positions of power, decision-making positions.

And then we have what Eisenhower coined the 'military industrial complex,' which very well may have laid the groundwork for where we find ourselves today. Well, that and how those Americans who can be bothered to vote do so.

To answer your questions...

1. of course lobbying has had an effect.
2. Nail in the coffin, I don't know about that. I guess I'm not as pessimistic about that as you are.

I believe we are capable of reform, but not with the current divided mentality. We would need a movement for truth and reason. A 3rd party that could take the reasonable people from both parties and leave the outliers that seem to be the vocal minorities at this time. Do I see that coming anytime soon? No, that's a pipe dream, but so is secession IMO. It would be interesting to see a truly libertarian society set up the size of oh, a state. It'd be the first experiment of its kind as far as I know.

As a life-long Libertarian who ran for a seat under the Libertarian ticket, I can say that, in my opinion, certain ideological aspects of my party simply no longer hold true for me. For example, the whole privatization thing. 20 years ago we used to talk in terms of privatizing police, emergency response (fire, medical, disaster, etc), education and other government-provided services because the thinking was that the private sector will do a better job than the government. Well, now we've seen privatization in action, mostly in 'criminal justice'; i.e. jails and prisons, but also within the military sphere (military industrial complex, baby!). And has it gone well? No, they've become strong lobbies, who petition the government to smooth the way to more business.

This stuff has to be pulled apart, and it begins with incumbents, in my opinion. How do incumbents become incumbent...?

People want "strong leaders". It's a design flaw in human beings, frankly. Very few are capable of thinking for themselves. Fewer still are comfortable with the responsibility that comes with the ability to think for themselves.

Most want others to make the decisions. It's less work and gives them an easy out if and when things don't pan out. People love a scapegoat. It soothes their ego and affords them the ability to bullshit themselves to a point that they not only do they not feel responsible, they don't even feel bad about it happening.

Many people do not want responsibility, period. Which is why they are so quick to relent on matters of personal freedom. It comes with an inherent level of responsibility, the sooner they are free of that burden the better. If you're not one of those people it's maddening to live in the world with them because so much of your day to day existence is subject to the conditions in which they have accepted, in some cases even asked for, yet you want nothing to do with.

As Voltaire said, the tyranny of many would be that of a body which invaded the rights of other bodies.

While I understand, but disagree with your ideas about voting, I absolutely agree with this statement. It's what I've been saying for a long, long time. It's about taking some responsibility.

Another corollary here is jury duty. I know very few people who actually report for duty when they're called. And when they do, they do what they can to get out of it. Here in California we're not reimbursed well for our time (I won't get into why that is here, yet), but in other states I understand folks get a halfway decent per diem. Yet they still don't want to be involved. So, how, exactly, will our judicial system work, let alone well, if We the People don't want to participate? Participation takes effort, energy, and thought, so I see that there is unwillingness, but still, our system won't work and doesn't work if "we" don't work with it.

 

[flubnutz]

i like how those folks in the middle east that finally got to vote, people walking miles and waiting hours, huge pain in the ass, and no way were they gonna miss the opportunity to cast their vote. it was very cool.

 

[iampolluted]

People want "strong leaders". It's a design flaw in human beings, frankly. Very few are capable of thinking for themselves. Fewer still are comfortable with the responsibility that comes with the ability to think for themselves.

Most want others to make the decisions. It's less work and gives them an easy out if and when things don't pan out. People love a scapegoat. It soothes their ego and affords them the ability to bullshit themselves to a point that they not only do they not feel responsible, they don't even feel bad about it happening.

Many people do not want responsibility, period. Which is why they are so quick to relent on matters of personal freedom. It comes with an inherent level of responsibility, the sooner they are free of that burden the better. If you're not one of those people it's maddening to live in the world with them because so much of your day to day existence is subject to the conditions in which they have accepted, in some cases even asked for, yet you want nothing to do with.

As Voltaire said, the tyranny of many would be that of a body which invaded the rights of other bodies.

it's all your fault ras....lol

 

[HOPS5K]

voting with my cannabis card I call it.

 

[macumba]

i feel like a sponge when i come to this thread

 

[unspoken]

Im sure the religious community would find you to be the same no?

I could have a polite conversation with anyone anytime on any topic, but religion and politics nearly always nets a heated and sometimes disgusting debate, not because I cannot accept my oppositions views, rather I find their views to be logically incoherent and are thus inferior to my own. Maybe thats a problem on my end, but I seriously doubt it, if I weigh in to point out a flaw, it has an inordinate amount of thinking that went into it, whereas I hear alot of things being said merely because they have been said in the past.. People cannot think for themselves.

I don't think so. I live in an area that is overwhelmingly religious. I seem to be able to express my views on religion without it turning into a fight or coming off as overtly hostile or negative. To me that's the difference in being cynical versus being skeptical. My response that you were responding to was admittedly semantic. Just a thought.

 

[unspoken]

Lobbying has had the single largest effect on the direction government has taken in the last 25-30 years. Granted, economic policies in place prior to the rise of lobbying have also contributed significantly to our current problems, they have gone hand in hand with business' ability to stack the odds in their favor to create one of the most fundamentally flawed societies in modern times.

Problem is, there is no appetite amongst either party to actually tackle that problem. Both benefit from it. There is no desire for any meaningful reform. And yet to stay on the current path is clearly unsustainable. So what is the solution? Kick the can and hope you're not the one on duty when SHTF.

And I'm glad to see someone else recognize the nonsense about not voting, kudos Buddy Holly. This is something I've been dealing with lately amongst certain friends. The notion that if you don't vote you can't complain is complete and utter bullshit. If you vote you can't complain!

Care to expand on that a little? Would you guys want a laissez-faire economic environment for these new countries?

 

[maryj315]

whats it called when a guy is doing you in the ass and another is pissing in your mouth? .

Prison!!!!!!!

Mj

 

[Jbonez]

I don't think so. I live in an area that is overwhelmingly religious. I seem to be able to express my views on religion without it turning into a fight or coming off as overtly hostile or negative. To me that's the difference in being cynical versus being skeptical. My response that you were responding to was admittedly semantic. Just a thought.

Unfortunately you are not privy to the perception you create, you may think you are being skeptical.. That doesnt really mean anything..

And what is wrong with cynicism? Kind of our modus operandi no? lol

 

[whodare]

Definition of CYNICAL

having or showing the attitude or temper of a cynic: as

a : contemptuously distrustful of human nature and motives

b : based on or reflecting a belief that human conduct is motivated primarily by self-interest

I'm definitely a cynic, and I'm usually skeptical of what others say/claim.

 

[unspoken]

Definition of CYNICAL-
1
: captious, peevish
2
: having or showing the attitude or temper of a cynic: as
a : contemptuously distrustful of human nature and motives <those cynical men who say that democracy cannot be honest and efficient — F. D. Roosevelt>
b : based on or reflecting a belief that human conduct is motivated primarily by self-interest <a cynical ploy to win votes>

from merriam-webster. Like I said, it was pretty semantic. Definition 1 is how a lot of cynics are. I was just saying it's important to be cognizant of that.

 

[unspoken]

Unfortunately you are not privy to the perception you create, you may think you are being skeptical.. That doesnt really mean anything..

And what is wrong with cynicism? Kind of our modus operandi no? lol

Well I am in a relationship with someone (christian) who has no problem whatsoever erm..."making me privy to the perception I've created."

Of course we all have our triggers.

 

[Jbonez]

Well I am in a relationship with someone (christian) who has no problem whatsoever erm..."making me privy to the perception I've created."

Wins thread

Too funny...

I get that as well on my end.. Im a bit of an agnostic, or Id go so far to say Spinozan pantheist if I listen to my gut, atheism is just as narrow in its philosophy as theism.. So I choose both and neither at the same time..

 

[whodare]

Fact is,

We are 98% empty space, yet we perceive solid beings.


I think we live in the matrix lol


An I may be a little captious, not so peevish though lol

 

[Jbonez]

I think we live in the matrix lol

Haaaaave you seeeeen my avatar........ The matrix concept is a little more real than one can imagine.. In essence, you are correct..

 

[whodare]

It hurts my brain.


Do you believe in the concept of infinity?

 

[Jbonez]

It hurts my brain.


Do you believe in the concept of infinity?

Not really, as far as maths are concerned, that is a bad thing.

 

[whodare]

Interesting, I have trouble concreting my perspective of the universe....

I guess I'm always seeking something that can't be found, understood, or realized

But I come to infinity, and wonder, I mean, I know just because we can't see that far doesn't mean there isn't a limit, but the same could be said about infinity.

Are we going to hit a wall at some point, stop expanding as a universe, and even if that is the case, what about parrallel one, if they exist.

It's a real mind fuck trying to comprehend the vastness that is empty space.

 

[Jbonez]

Interesting, I have trouble concreting my perspective of the universe....

I guess I'm always seeking something that can't be found, understood, or realized

But I come to infinity, and wonder, I mean, I know just because we can't see that far doesn't mean there isn't a limit, but the same could be said about infinity.

Are we going to hit a wall at some point, stop expanding as a universe, and even if that is the case, what about parrallel one, if they exist.

It's a real mind fuck trying to comprehend the vastness that is empty space.

There is actually a mathematical paradox theory that states if you reach one edge of the universe, essentially you would come in from the other side.. Trying to remember what its called.. **lights bowl**

The universe in "theory" is finite, but with the expansion taking place after the cooling down of the universe began, it has theoretical physicists stumped...

My opinion is that the universe is nothing more than a fish bowl we cant escape.. For a reason, yet events as amazing as the black hole leaves more questions than answers, and the universe if full of them..

Then there is anti matter and all kinds of other shit we cant explain..