No-Till thread?

[Punisher 421]

With all the talk of sustainability and leaching I couldn't help but sign up for this one...

When are we going to transition to a 100% nature sourced soil mix? Is anybody running a mix that has zero purchased items or very very few?

I know that this isn't suitable for many, but I know that we have a group here that has available natural items and the knowledge to make it work for the masses.

My 8+ year "conventional organic" notill is going back into large beds for winter runs. Right now I am trying to dial a compost/leaf mold/soil/composted beech shell base with flax meal and wood ash as the only additions...

A notill step by step, detail by detail write up would be phenomenal. We all have nuances and details that get left in translation. Either that or you have to dig through hundreds of pages. Only way to stop the money making is make the information 100% available. From what amendments, where to get them, when to apply and why to apply. Soil requires most gardeners to learn a completely new realm to them and then gain the trial and error experience over years of practice. If the who,what,where,when and why are answered first thing, the information is more attainable.

Rambling...sorry!

Good morning,
GC

I totally agree that a complete, and thorough write up on no-till needs to be done as I have been reading no till threads for a week and still don't 100% know what it is I need, how much of each item, etc.... That would be sweet if someone reputable came up with that information and posted it somewhere for all to utilize.

 

[Team Microbe]

I'm hankering for one. Would like to discuss everything from cover crop selection to topdressings and pots/soil structure.. Any and all details really. FPEs and tea recipes... Come on guys. Tell me there are no till people out there. Be magnetized to meee!!!

Subbed

I love when people talk about being no till, then they talk about their new soil mixes.......

Outdoor no till and indoor no till are definitely different for obvious reasons, I consider amending your soil once initially, then never tilling again "indoor no tilling". Unless you want to bust through some concrete to keep things natural, I'm not sure you can get any closer than that!

plenty of growers practice no till here. check out my thread. link in sig

I just prefer to think of no till as a farming practice. I don't find the dogmatic militant #notillarmy IG fame approach very compelling.

it's all farming.

5 gallons are about as small as you can go. check out the old ROLS threads to see gascanistan's 5 gallon no tills for example.

I've been using 10s. my back can't handle anything bigger unfortunately.

I'd love to be in massive beds. more roots is more fruits.

the smaller the container the more the farmer needs to contribute to close the loop. larger containers are more forgiving. every time you harvest a plant, you're removing biomass and nutrients from the system. they must be replenished with compost and mulch top.

making super high quality worm castings fortified with kelp/crab/neem/basalt for example is the easiest way to keep your no till functioning smoothly.

Great points Heady -

I've recently thrown my worm bin in the closet though, I've found that on-site vermicomposting is much more efficient as long as containers never dry out completely. A handful of both reg wigglers and european nightcrawlers per container and it's steady sailing from there on out...

 

[Team Microbe]

i might be the only one, but i have ZERO problem with BAS making money by filling a need.

when i started on this path it took me WEEKS to source all the materials i wanted to use. i probably shopped at as many stores as there were ingredients in my soil (this was in the post-supersoil, diversity-in-amdendments days). and that was in central CA, one of the country's most active and progressive agricultural areas!

i can always drive an hour and a half each way to go to my favorite farm supply store, but sometimes i just want that shit delivered to my door. i'm happy to pay for the convenience when i don't have the time or the energy to go on a wild hunt for my shit.

when i'm building soil, i'll drive to the local spots. i'm not an idiot. i'm not ordering bags of rock dust from colorado and paying to ship it half way across the country. BAS gives the very same advice fwiw. get what you can locally.

also, i credit coot as one of my major influences. he spent a lot of time educating me and leading me to my own discoveries. he encouraged me to question the shit i read and always look for a simpler solution. he taught me to trust my observations and be skeptical of what i read on the pot boards.

if all that generous mentorship eventually created a massive hoard of dogmatic idiots, is that coot's fault? i think it's just a sad reality of human nature, but i'm not hating on coot for the poor behavior of people that take things he's said and turn them into a club to beat people with.

microbe man has also shaped my practices and research methodology. he sells brewers. does that make him a bad person? no. that makes him a professional.

the last person i credit as a mentor is jayKUSH. he was on KNF and building soil mixes from leaf mold and comfrey and nettle etc etc before anyone was parroting that shit. he opened my eyes to the possibilities of foraging and plants growing plants and considering the whole biome and not just the crop plant. he was making different mixes and planting the same culitvars in them to demonstrate how you can force different phenotypic expressions.

OBVIOUSLY i hate the #notillarmy nonsense and the IG fame machine that has given some measure of influence to those idiots.

but it doesn't seem much different to write off the contributions of influential members of the community with a broad stroke of the superiority pen.

foraging is great. plant based nutrients are great. locally sourced amendments are great. i strive to create the most sustainable garden i can (in an artificial indoor cultivation environment, which is innately at conflict with sustainability, fwiw).

but i don't live in an idealistic vacuum. IRL compromises have to be made. what does a holier-than-thou attitude accomplish?

I too applaud BAS and Jeremy for filling that void, someone had to do it and he stepped up to the plate and did an amazing job. He made it possible for me to find materials that simply aren't available to me locally here (without having to go to the hydro store in my area that's bugged and watched by LEO). That was huge for me.

I think we all initially get sucked into that envy trap that social media platforms are so keenly designed to instill in us all, and find a few mentors to learn from and aim for so to speak. For me it was Norcalmedicineman, who led me to MountainOrganics, who eventually led me to Coot. Then after a while you begin to question your mentors, and are able to piece together the puzzle to see the big picture for yourself. It was then, and only then when I was able to take my blinders off and think for myself rather than following the gang of successful no till growers.

I see it a lot in the young up and comers too, and I remind them to think for themselves because I know how easy it is to follow suit from the best grower you know on IG.

I've tagged #notillarmy myself a few times on IG, and though I haven't really seen what you're talking about myself, I see it to be similar to PFA in a way. It's a way to gather like minded farmers into a clique to interact and find one another. Is it not?

I started #NoTillRevolution for similar reasons - in hopes of starting one in the community, and I'm finally beginning to see more and more people switching over to this regenerative style of farming by the day. It's a good thing I think. What's not so good is the ego attached to some of these growers soon after discovering No Till. They realize they've finally found "The end of the road" so to speak and grow cocky that they're here, and lose sight of what brought them here in the first place. Everyone gets caught up in it, most become humble soon there after though. I even saw some posts by Jeremy from back in the day that were pretty cocky, so I think it's natural to get ahead of yourself but it's important to keep it in check, that's for sure

 

[MileHighGlass]

I too applaud BAS and Jeremy for filling that void, someone had to do it and he stepped up to the plate and did an amazing job. He made it possible for me to find materials that simply aren't available to me locally here (without having to go to the hydro store in my area that's bugged and watched by LEO). That was huge for me.

I think we all initially get sucked into that envy trap that social media platforms are so keenly designed to instill in us all, and find a few mentors to learn from and aim for so to speak. For me it was Norcalmedicineman, who led me to MountainOrganics, who eventually led me to Coot. Then after a while you begin to question your mentors, and are able to piece together the puzzle to see the big picture for yourself. It was then, and only then when I was able to take my blinders off and think for myself rather than following the gang of successful no till growers.

I see it a lot in the young up and comers too, and I remind them to think for themselves because I know how easy it is to follow suit from the best grower you know on IG.

I've tagged #notillarmy myself a few times on IG, and though I haven't really seen what you're talking about myself, I see it to be similar to PFA in a way. It's a way to gather like minded farmers into a clique to interact and find one another. Is it not?

I started #NoTillRevolution for similar reasons - in hopes of starting one in the community, and I'm finally beginning to see more and more people switching over to this regenerative style of farming by the day. It's a good thing I think. What's not so good is the ego attached to some of these growers soon after discovering No Till. They realize they've finally found "The end of the road" so to speak and grow cocky that they're here, and lose sight of what brought them here in the first place. Everyone gets caught up in it, most become humble soon there after though. I even saw some posts by Jeremy from back in the day that were pretty cocky, so I think it's natural to get ahead of yourself but it's important to keep it in check, that's for sure

You've come a long way young jedi. Where was this when we were bickering back and forth on IG last year? I've come a long way too. Glad to see you spread the organic love around, for real.

 

[Team Microbe]

You summed this up so well. I would have added that a lot of the people leave forums when challenged about their methods. I have seen that happen many times before.

"Bow down, or i'll take all of my "wisdom" with me."

The ROLS nazi's turned into the current "notillarmy", and I wonder what they will turn into next?

Great Post!

The only time I was proud to be associated with the "no till army" is when the owner of General Hydroponics called me out on Heavy T's radio podcast, LMAO!

I helped expose their relationship with Scott's front company Hawthorne Gardening and apparently ruffled a few feathers in doing so...


Anyways,
I'm curious - who's actually a part of this army, and what are they doing that's giving them such a bad reputation? I know myself, Ian, Coot, Evan, the gnomes or any other well-known growers out there don't associate ourselves with it. Is this a new crowd comprised of young up and comers or something? And what are they fighting? Crime?

 

[Team Microbe]

You've come a long way young jedi. Where was this when we were bickering back and forth on IG last year? I've come a long way too. Glad to see you spread the organic love around, for real.

I'm not sure, but I will say that we all grow my friend

 

[heady blunts]

hehe i kinda threw that hash tag under the bus cause it exemplifies the dogmatic attitude i was taking issue with. i follow some good folks that like to tag that regularly.

i'll do my semi-regular disclaimer that i love to use hyperbole when i speak and write. i need to remember to qualify some of my more broad-handed rants.

if LEO is bugging our hydro stores they're not doin much with the intel as far as i can tell. seems a world less sketchy than droppin in on an indoor growing store in a prohibition state. i like that i have a few to chose from too

all the rationalizing helps me sleep at night

 

[Team Microbe]

I totally agree that a complete, and thorough write up on no-till needs to be done as I have been reading no till threads for a week and still don't 100% know what it is I need, how much of each item, etc.... That would be sweet if someone reputable came up with that information and posted it somewhere for all to utilize.

I agree, a thread like that for indoor no tilling would be pretty helpful for people to refer to.

In short, the problem is it's subjective for everyone, and depends on what materials they're able to source in their area for the most part. I would say the main goal is to initially mix a balanced recipe with all micro/macronutrients present along with your mineral nutrition (rock dusts). Including a high quality source of humus (compost, ewc) in your base mix is important as well. I used Coast of Maine's Lobster compost because it's local, if I were out west I would choose something more along the lines of Malibu's Bu's blend. Whatever you have locally that's of best quality is best. Ideally speaking, it would be homemade compost but, not everyone has a pile ready to go so bagged is usually the best option. Worms are essential as well, and will create enzyme-rich castings on-site for your containers; eliminating the need for any worm bins. Asides from all that, a thick mulch layer is vital. Whether it be cocoa shells, barley straw, living mulch (cover crops), composted wood chips, or what have you. The top layer needs to remain moist, just as it does any other living soil system.

Lastly, returning plant biomass to the mulch layer after harvesting is the key to regeneration in your containers. It's best to mulch everything that doesn't make it to the jars. I cover that green layer with a thick layer of straw before planting a new clone besides my old stalk. The nutrition once lost is now returned, and will be stored for times of need later down the line. It's really easy once you get a few cycles down and begin observing how the system works as a whole.


I'd love to make a thread on this, but like I said the materials and ingredients aren't as important as the philosophy behind no till gardening is. If you enjoy reading, consider picking up a copy of One Straw Revolution or The Natural Way of Farming by Masanobu Fukuoka. Those are great foundations to build from I think.

 

[who dat is]

I think it's all well and good and all that jazz so long as somebody doesn't get all holier than thou and preachy. I don't want anybody ever TELLING me what to do or should be doing. I'll listen to advice but it has to be presented in the right manor. Anybody follow @gojigardens on IG? I used to but that guy always came across as a know it all douchebag. The final straw for me was when he kept repeatedly posting about using his girlfriend's period blood ("moonblood") to feed his plants. For fucks sake.

#crunchierthanthou
#myplantscanbeatupyourplants
#icanpeefartherthanyou

 

[Team Microbe]

I think it's all well and good and all that jazz so long as somebody doesn't get all holier than thou and preachy. I don't want anybody ever TELLING me what to do or should be doing. I'll listen to advice but it has to be presented in the right manor. Anybody follow @gojigardens on IG? I used to but that guy always came across as a know it all douchebag. The final straw for me was when he kept repeatedly posting about using his girlfriend's period blood ("moonblood") to feed his plants. For fucks sake.

#crunchierthanthou
#myplantscanbeatupyourplants
#icanpeefartherthanyou

I agree.

Haha I remember the moon blood phase, DEM posted a picture and it got all the rave. I can't believe guys actually made their girl's collect it for them. That was a little... ahem... different.


Anyways, thought I'd share a few photos with you guys:

Harlequin & The One - day 14 (5th cycle)

Glue

Below the Glue

I've recently stopped sowing cover crops, now I mulch heavily with barley straw and incorporate random companion plants while the canopy is still open during veg. This round I used Tulsi (holy basil) for it's natural resistance, and occasionally make botanical teas with it to use as a base (in place of H20) for foliar spray recipes. This stuff smells too good!!

on-site vermicomposting, because who needs a worm bin?

Doesn't get any fresher than these on-site loafs...

 

[SkyHighWormGuy]

Subbed
No tiller for years. Indoors. Sometimes I fuck with the soil although I do have some unmolested pots. I like mulch. 30 gallon pots rock it.

 

[SkyHighWormGuy]

 

[SkyHighWormGuy]

I use a coot type soil mix. It seems to work well for me, only recently have I begun to question whether it was BEST. Some say that 1/3 humic material ( in my case homemade worm castings) is too much in a soil mix.

I'd like to read about other soil mixes that have been run in an indoor no till garden for years and stood the test of time.

Does the soil need to have the full range of (cycled) nutrients available to the plant and a highly functioning SFW? Or.. Does the soil need to have a presise, balanced amount of nutrients in it, most or all of which are consumed by the plant?

If it is the latter, then that would make no till much harder, replenishing the no till soil to exact optimum levels between grows.

I think that the plant really does communicate with the soil community (via exudates they say). As long as anything the plant may want is available in the rhizosphere, it seems, the plants can just grow perfect, round after round. It seems as easy as making a rich soil that has good drainage. Use a big pot. This really does work great, malted barley or sprouted seed type enzyme teas seem make the plants smile. Kelp, oyster and worms casting top dressing does the same. The diverse mulch layer including various dynamic accumulators helps feed the soil as it decomposes.

Is there a better way for an indoor organic no till grow?

 

[heady blunts]

nice flowers SHWG!

 

[thcrefugee]

I'd like to be the first to say

To all of you here for sharing solid knowledge and wisdom!

 

[Team Microbe]

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=68592&pictureid=1631929&thumb=1]View Image[/url] [URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=64891&pictureid=1539673&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

Is that bamboo I see?

Very cool, that's a first for me...

 

[Team Microbe]

I use a coot type soil mix. It seems to work well for me, only recently have I begun to question whether it was BEST. Some say that 1/3 humic material ( in my case homemade worm castings) is too much in a soil mix.

I'd like to read about other soil mixes that have been run in an indoor no till garden for years and stood the test of time.

Does the soil need to have the full range of (cycled) nutrients available to the plant and a highly functioning SFW? Or.. Does the soil need to have a presise, balanced amount of nutrients in it, most or all of which are consumed by the plant?

If it is the latter, then that would make no till much harder, replenishing the no till soil to exact optimum levels between grows.

I think that the plant really does communicate with the soil community (via exudates they say). As long as anything the plant may want is available in the rhizosphere, it seems, the plants can just grow perfect, round after round. It seems as easy as making a rich soil that has good drainage. Use a big pot. This really does work great, malted barley or sprouted seed type enzyme teas seem make the plants smile. Kelp, oyster and worms casting top dressing does the same. The diverse mulch layer including various dynamic accumulators helps feed the soil as it decomposes.

Is there a better way for an indoor organic no till grow?

Base Mix:

1 part Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss
1 part (high quality) Compost
1 part Aeration (75% Lava rock, 20% Bio char, 5% Rice hulls)

Mixed with:

Acadian Kelp Meal @ 1/2 Cup per cubic foot

Neem Cake and Karanja Cake 50/50 Mix @ 1/2 cup per cubic foot

Crustacean Meal @ 1/2 Cup per cubic foot

Gypsum Dust @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot

Brix Blend Basalt @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot

Glacial Rock Dust @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot

Oyster Flour @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot

Malted Barley @ 2 Cup Per Cubic Foot

1 Handful of Red Wigglers (per container)

1 Handful of European Night Crawlers (per container)


^ I run the CC kit plus malted barley, bio char, red wigglers and european nightcrawlers and I was wondering the same thing myself. It's worked just fine for me, don't get me wrong - but I'm curious as to what everyone else is using and if certain inputs are better than others. Above all though, balance is the most important factor when building a long-term mix like this.


As far as re-amending goes,
clay and organic matter hold a high CEC - meaning they have negative charges that can hold and release positively charged nutrients. (The cations are adsorbed onto the surface of the clay or humus) That static charge keeps the nutrients from being washed away, and basically holds them so they are available to plant roots and soil microorganisms. That never-ending cycle of life, death, and decay is what oils the engine of the soil food web itself, and carbon is it's fuel source.

This is why mulching the left over biomass come harvest time can be extremely beneficial. Anything taken is then returned to the system, and life begins again. Asides from mulching with stems & leaves, I occasionally sprinkle kelp meal on the surface at the beginning of every cycle, along with the occasional neem/karanja cake dressing (mainly for fungus gnat outbreaks, which aren't too common these days). I haven't seen a deficiency in 2 years from this routine - hope that helps!

 

[Team Microbe]

What does everyone else use for their soil mixes?

Does anyone have any soil tests to share?

 

[MileHighGlass]

1 cubic foot of soil mixed
3-gallons of peat moss
2- gallons rice hulls/perlite/lava rock
2- gallons of worm casting/compost
1/2- cup oyster shell flour
1- cup gypsum
1/2- cup azomite
1/4- cup basalt rock dust
1/2- cup bentonite
1/2- cup crab shell meal
1/2- cup fish meal
1/2- cup alfalfa meal
1/2- cup fish bone meal
1- cup kelp meal
1/2 gallon biochar

This is my current soil mix. It has been revised over the past 4 years or so. I had it tested in 2013 but can't remember the results. It was with logan labs.

Now for notill all rice hulls isnt the best idea, but can be done. I will mix in about half lava rock for some of the rice hulls. I have been working on a new soil mix that uses pine bark fines instead of the lava rock. So it would be a gallon of pine bark fines and a gallon of rice hulls. Also I am going to be switching to large chunks of biochar instead of the 3mm size. This way I have more aeration during the life of the notill soil.

The point of the pine bark fines is to allow for a home for fugnal growth to happen. A lot of us growers use biochar to help with bacteria etc.. to grow but we don't give the fungal hyphae a place to reside.

Also I am starting to use oak leaves, and maple leaves as part of my mulch so that I can have a layer of leaf mould right on top of the pot.

I don't know why I left some of these techniques behind when I moved from Arkansas. I used leaf mould that was from my property, and just about everyone in my area used pine bark fines for aeration, and mulch, including myself.

No better time then now to get back to what I was "brought up" on.

 

[Punisher 421]

I use anything and everything I can get my hands on around my place