Microorganisms for soil - recommend me a good product

[LungCooking]

So you have no real value to add to the conversation?

 

[Cerathule]

Do you see any networking in the rootball? No you don't. Maybe the 2 products I applied to the rootball are dead. I store my stuff in the fridge and use it ASAP, so, hoo nose?

Mykorrhiza nettings are much more tiny, by an order of magnitude or more, than even the smallest roots.
You cannot show these with a picture shot of your rootball...

 

[xtsho]

This for yall experts @Old Uncle Ben and @xtsho what do yall think about jadam and knf? I’ll assume yall would know those terms.

I use those farming methods in my vegetable garden with plants grown in the ground. I am a supporter and believer in those farming methods. The goal is to build a healthy soil ecosystem. However, in ground growing is significantly different than growing a 3 month plant indoors in a pot that's more often than not being force fed excessive amounts of nutrients.

Jadam Microbial Solution

KNF IMO

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

That’s an entirely different topic. As someone who knows her and have spoken at the same events, her “science” is terrible and has a definite agenda. I’ve dug into her studies on some topics and they’ve got terrible experimental design and statistical analysis. Yet she acts like they’re irrefutable evidence on a given topic and ignores any data that disproves her points.

And what exactly is her agenda? It's the same as mine, to clean up the feel good, wacka-doodle crap you read on the internet.

She is irrefutable, to any one that knows what the hell they're doing and I do. Been gardening, taking educational classes both classroom and field for over 50 years. I've run a large niche ag biz, still have a vineyard, do veggie gardening and am a master grafter. Also grow some homegrow now and then.

You're putting down the messenger because you don't like the message.

UB

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

I use those farming methods in my vegetable garden with plants grown in the ground. I am a supporter and believer in those farming methods. The goal is to build a healthy soil ecosystem. However, in ground growing is significantly different than growing a 3 month plant indoors in a pot that's more often than not being force fed excessive amounts of nutrients.

Jadam Microbial Solution

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KNF IMO

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Gonna share a matrix of "stuff" a commercial avocado friend of mine has trialed. Ya might wanna look into EM-1 culture.

Have fun.

This is about 10 year old.

Uncle Ben

 

[Gooseman23]

I use those farming methods in my vegetable garden with plants grown in the ground. I am a supporter and believer in those farming methods. The goal is to build a healthy soil ecosystem. However, in ground growing is significantly different than growing a 3 month plant indoors in a pot that's more often than not being force fed excessive amounts of nutrients.

Jadam Microbial Solution

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KNF IMO

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oh cool yea I see, I actually ran Jadam inside in grow tent in 3 gallon fabric pots. Not ideal for organic but it still worked. Only used organic soil with rabbit shit and worm shit. Then when feeding I used the everything JLF, fish hydrolysate, and JMS. That’s all it took to go from seed to harvest. And I mainly vegged without feeding… the rabbit and worm shit vegged her for me. And right before flowerlike a week or so before flip is when I started feeding and fed her every second week was all it took.

 

[KIS]

And what exactly is her agenda? It's the same as mine, to clean up the feel good, wacka-doodle crap you read on the internet.

She is irrefutable, to any one that knows what the hell they're doing and I do. Been gardening, taking educational classes both classroom and field for over 50 years. I've run a large niche ag biz, still have a vineyard, do veggie gardening and am a master grafter. Also grow some homegrow now and then.

You're putting down the messenger because you don't like the message.

UB

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No one is irrefutable in science or academia. Sorry to break the news on that. As for Linda Chalker-Scott, when we both presented at a talk, she shared research with an n value of 8 and acted like that proved anything. Not to mention there were very little controls in the experiment. It just showed how poorly she understands experimental design. It was actually pretty embarrassing. She’s well known to have a narrow viewpoint and only pull from sources that might support her own narrative.

I too have been in the horticulture and cannabis industry for decades. I don’t think that has any bearing though on the information I share. If you want to look me up though, I’m hardly anonymous on this platform.

If you really want to help clean up the crap on the internet then I suggest you look at the papers I posted links to as well as the multitude of other scholarly papers that show statistically significant results when inoculating various annual crops with mycorrhizal fungi.

 

[Cerathule]

Ammonical N sources such as urea,

No, absolutely not.

Didn't know this, Thanks for heads up Uncle Ben

But science of today beats broscience of the 1920's:

I grew under HPS only, 20 years or so ago. Still remember all that hype about the need for "da blue spectrum man" - using a MH bulb.

A predominantly red SPD is best suitably for highest drymass grows, but it has been shown time & again its missing blue causes Cannabis to grow less trichs that under +blue. These colas look massive but not frosty. Could be mostly genetics but then, it's the growth parameters which can push a few % up or down.

 

[Cerathule]

Frontiers | Enhancement of growth and Cannabinoids content of hemp (Cannabis sativa) using arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi

This study aimed to investigate the efficiency of arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (AMF) to promote growth and cannabinoid yield of Cannabis sativa KKU05. A comp...

www.frontiersin.org

Only cannabis paper I found easily. They look at two strains, and one is useful.

Sometimes we don't know what we are getting.

From the study:
"Soil preparation
The sandy loam soil used in this study was the same soil as used by Nacoon et al. (2020). It had the following properties: pH 5.27, 0.14 dS m−1 electrical conductivity (EC), 3.9 g soil organic matter kg−1, 160 mg total N kg−1 (C:N ≈ 12), 5 mg extractable (P-Bray) P kg−1, 36 mg exchangeable K kg−1, 125 mg exchangeable Ca kg−1 and 56 mg exchangeable Na kg−1. "

Now that is a medium which completely differs from most, if all, the media used by indoor growers. Sandy loam, almost no NPK in it, low pH, very low organic content.

Alot of the results of empirical studies are "pre-dictate" by its setup. I say, in an nutrient loaden indoor potting mix where the plant never even faces a physiological P-deficiency, it is not going to invite Myks into its roots.

 

[Cerathule]

Effect of Rhizophagus irregularis on Growth and Quality of Cannabis sativa Seedlings

Effect of Rhizophagus irregularis on Growth and Quality of Cannabis sativa Seedlings - PubMed

<span><i>Rhizophagus irregularis</i> is an arbuscular mycorrhiza fungus that can enhance plant nutrition and reduce transplant shock on seedlings. The present study aims to evaluate the effects of this fungus on the quality of cannabis (<i>Cannabis sativa</i> L.) seedlings.A greenhouse float...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Results indicated that root length and stem dry weight were significantly increased (by 34.14% and 21.4%, respectively) in the AMF3 treatment. The biomass of the seedlings' roots, the fresh weight and the N content were not affected by the AMF. On the contrary, survival rate, P content and DQI were significantly increased in AMF3 (by 5%, 24.3% and 12.4% respectively). Overall, our findings suggest that the application of high doses of Rhizophagus irregularis (AMF3) on float system-produced cannabis seedlings results in a considerable increment of their quality.

There is maybe a problem with their approach, can't say for sure as they don't give out any info about the medium used except for "peat", "soil & compost". I'm a bit confused about their methods. They need a 50l bucket a nutrient solution to sprout 2 seeds...?! And keep these at a real tiny amount of peat in 35 days...? We know that peat is resl low in nutrients except N & Mg, but almost no P. The water was fertilized with organic 2-4-0,5 that isn't a good NPK ratio for Cannabis to begin with. So much P in veg... it actually looks as if this was done to cause nutrient deficiency in the seedlings and give food for the myks, which need organic macromolecules to digest and free the bound P, subsequently also to the plant roots. The presence of myks have shown they release 10-fold the amount of organic acids which help mobilize bound P.

Then later they transplant to "soil + compost" which may also hold alot of its nutrient content bound to organic structures/slow release via MO's.

One single mineralic fertilisation containing P2O5 or phosphoric acid may have completely shattered these end results.

 

[Cerathule]

And it’s better to just mimic nature. We don’t need to understand this balance because we know it’s there. So we should mimic.

You can't. Not indoors. Monocultures. Pots. Tapwater. Where's your fauna? Sandy loam including worms, moles, and a million insects?

 

[KIS]

From the study:
"Soil preparation
The sandy loam soil used in this study was the same soil as used by Nacoon et al. (2020). It had the following properties: pH 5.27, 0.14 dS m−1 electrical conductivity (EC), 3.9 g soil organic matter kg−1, 160 mg total N kg−1 (C:N ≈ 12), 5 mg extractable (P-Bray) P kg−1, 36 mg exchangeable K kg−1, 125 mg exchangeable Ca kg−1 and 56 mg exchangeable Na kg−1. "

Now that is a medium which completely differs from most, if all, the media used by indoor growers. Sandy loam, almost no NPK in it, low pH, very low organic content.

Alot of the results of empirical studies are "pre-dictate" by its setup. I say, in a nutrient loaden indoor potting mix where the plant never even faces a physiological P-deficiency, it is not going to invite Myks into its roots.

Agreed this mix is quite different than what most growers run indoors. That’s a fair point. I know in my soils I don’t run high available P (phosphates) compared to soils that have bat guanos or other inputs. I haven’t seen any studies that directly reference what many cannabis growers are doing, though it’s not like there’s an industry standard either.

Yes, available P has been shown to inhibit mycorrhizal infection so it could be reduced in what folks call living soil but from talking to Dr Yoram Kapulnik about this exact question, he believed you would still get infection in most cases if the species of mycorrhizal fungi is more adaptive and can handle higher EC ranges (it will vary by commercially produced strain).

Really my point was only that there is evidence that mycorrhizal infection in cannabis and other annual crops can have an impact on plant health and growth. I don’t believe it should be used in all instances but it does bear consideration.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

Almost everyone here, other than Uncle Ben, seems to be arguing / trying to prove the addition of root "enhancers" is a good thing and economically worth it, for cannabis.

Scientifically, it may be proven to increase root mass. Practically, it's a totally different story, at least for those of us who have been doing this for a while.

Does an 18% (or whatever percentage it was, I can't remember and don't feel like looking right now) increase in root mass really make a difference in the total, final _quality_ of a harvested cannabis plant?

I think my previous post in this thread, from a month or two ago, kind of proves you really don't need root enhancers... but if you all want to throw your money at whatever you think is going to make your cannabis "better", go for it, it's not my money that's being wasted.

I'm happy with this cannabis, and it didn't need any root enhancers, specialized fertilizer ratios, bloom boosters, specialized light ratios, or any of that other heavily marketed bullshit. It was grown in Miracle-Gro potting soil and fertilized with Peter's 20/20/20 fertilizer.

I read something here recently from a old timer back in the day, who said they grew in Miracle-Gro just a piss people off. At least I have one kindred fucking spirit here somewhere.

Btw, this is from 25 year-old Sensi Northern Lights, that I've reverse engineered:

Obsess all you want about the final 5% THC that you might be able to improve upon, but what kind of high are you going to get?

My plants are never abused, know there are _cared_ for, grow how I want them to, without topping, FIM'ing, super cropping, or any other abusive bullshit people do to a living cannabis plant, in order to increase yield.

My plants take care of me, because I take care of them.

The high I get reflects that, but you all feel free to do whatever in the fuck you want, at least some of us old fucks know better.

Go ahead and measure PAR, EC, pH, VPD or whatever else you Millennials are so obsessed about...

... you are _so_ missing what developing cannabis is all about.

 

[TrainingHay]

I'm here to get high and argue. And my vapes on the charger



I've never see Cannabis grown in soil (on the internet). When people say soil on the net, it's usually this funky Lowes/Home Depot stuff:

So, the fungus part is already covered.


And fungus is over rated in Cannabis. You need roothair not fungus. 18% more roots means 18% more root hairs, so you can properly process and hold 18% more P, which means 18% more sugar transported out of the leaf which means 18% more of something. The math is unwavering.

Most cannabis "soils" (peat mixes) are overtaken by fungus and grow poor roots. Fungus steals fatty acids, oxylipins, phospholipids, glycolipids, sphingolipids and sterols from the plant. Cannabis metabolites which pharma companies are actually interested in (or interested in obfuscating, more accurately).

Its a given that the fungal bunnies with their dead leaf mulch and poor roots are also anointing their plants with anti fungals and making up terp descriptors for "earthy" weed at the retail level. Bacteria vs mold isn't bloods n crips, it's cops and robbers when it comes to weed. There are ZERO proven cases of fungus helping improve the quality of Cannabis and COUNTLESS examples of fungus ruining Cannabis. Take that to debate class.

You should be filling your containers with root hairs colonized by nutrient solublizing intra-cellular plant beneficial bacteria, not scerlotial mass, smelly mulch and weird biofungicide bandaids. Root hairs are Cannabis's natural preference, not sporulating fungus.

I assume most notill peatophiles have no idea they are growing truffles in their soilless mix moreso than roots. With the price that typical "soil"-grown quality fetches, most "soil" growers would be better off switching to shrooms altogether, rather than continuing the indigenous mold movement. Even the voodoo African cob cult next door in the 'Harvest' section is dominated by molds. Weird for any grower to make a positive connection there.


Simply put, high P manure, like cattle, is the best source of nutrient solublizing microbes for Cannabis grown in peat or soil. The only shrooms you'll find there are magic. You will never smoke weed as good as what you can grow for free on a dairy farm.


Now that you know where to get your free microbes, what about the soap nut extract to kill them all off? Quanjilla, yucca, aloe, pick your poison. Why is the above poster so worried about Guano (3% soluble P) when tons of people are putting soap in their soil?

In studies, washing hands with soap and water for 15 seconds (about the time it takes to sing one chorus of "Happy Birthday to You") reduces bacterial counts by about 90%. When another 15 seconds is added, bacterial counts drop by close to 99.9% (bacterial counts are measured in logarithmic reductions).

Won't anyone think of the bacteria?

Consider this: Inoculating seedcoats or cutting trays with mycos is extremely cheap and easy ($10 an acre) It's the only way to effectively inoculate the root with fungus. And since P is removed around the root, by the root, and is not mobile in soil, there's always a depleted space of 0.5-1mm for the endo myco to reach into just in case, until it detects P concentrations which the bacterial root hairs are already taking care of. Mycos are like a rookie backup cop with a tazer. Team Bacteria.

 

[Gooseman23]

First step is to study soil biology.. people dont do things out of nowhere.. you get a chunck of soil from forest and cultivate either with oat meal or molasses you may or not end up adding harmful biology to your plants.. have fun

You haven’t done the studying of Jadam…

You can't. Not indoors. Monocultures. Pots. Tapwater. Where's your fauna? Sandy loam including worms, moles, and a million insects?

you took what I was saying completely out of context. I was merely describing what is taught in Jadam farming. And yes you can do it inside. I posted a pic earlier of a plant I ran using Jadam. Inside in a grow tent all the way through. And that statement is referring to creating nutrients for your plants from nature. Which is what it’s about. So while no you can’t be nature inside you can use nature to create all your nutrients and feed an indoor plant with it and grow it. But anywho this stemmed from the topic of microbes which brought me to JMS which is a way to cultivate your own microbes. And yes you can make it and then use it on an indoor plant… just like you can take compost and use it on an indoor plant.
These plants grown in organic soil amended with rabbit shit and worm shit. And then fed using Jadam. Everything Jadam liquid fertilizer, fish hydrolysate, and Jadam microbial solution.

 

[Cerathule]

And since P is removed around the root, by the root, and is not mobile in soil, there's always a depleted space of 0.5-1mm for the endo myco to reach into just in case, until it detects P concentrations which the bacterial root hairs are already taking care of.

It's a worthy topic. High agricultural P ferts have caused recent myks spores in many outdoor locations to reduce drastically. A lot of that P binds to the soil but since it has such a low mobility the normal plant root can't reach it. In these cases it has been shown that a myk product can have the same effect on plant P assimilation than an actual P fertilization.
Since the myks grows alongside the roots, very early inoculation is most efficient and effective. Right at the seedling level. G. intraradices etc follows along signal molecules in state of P need and is actively led in, the plant has developed intricate methods to retain full control over the process. In state of P overabundancy, will even let the bound myks starve.

What's difficult to predict which of the MOs will survive in their respective niche with rivalry being omnipresent. This is more easy for hydro with sterilization followed by inoculation then MOs consume root exudates to shut out any unwanted guests plus produce some PGRs.

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

Go ahead and measure PAR, EC, pH, VPD or whatever else you Millennials are so obsessed about...

... you are _so_ missing what developing cannabis is all about.

No shit, they just don't get it.

Call it "OCD", splitting hairs, beating your chest"...... Knitting circles, cannabis forums style as we old pHarts have witnessed for a good 20 years or so.

Plant doesn't care as long as it's getting its 13 essential elements in a form it can use. If these microbes don't produce the nitrates, phosphates, oxides yada yada then they are useless. Might as well go hydroponic. Experience is what counts, eh.

Nice NL! What a indica legend that one is. I've got 3 indica faves going, quite a few didn't germ - a Kwik Seed (Real Seed) Afghani mix from N. Afghanistan and 2 old Amsterdam crosses - Master Kush X Afghani 90.

As an aside, my 22 year old C99 backcrosses that I soaked, sank and split. All have been sowed last few days. Can't believe they've remained viable for so long! I also soaked MY legend, a cross I made years ago that is top shelf - C99 X (C99XPeak19). Sowed those too, last one being yesterday after splitting. Only had 4 seeds left that I had made 22? years ago. Growing them with Osmocote which contains both ammonical and nitrate forms of N.

Grow hard,
UB

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

And fungus is over rated in Cannabis. You need roothair not fungus. 18% more roots means 18% more root hairs, so you can properly process and hold 18% more P, which means 18% more sugar transported out of the leaf which means 18% more of something. The math is unwavering.

Growing is all about root mass. Why do you think I'm doing root pruning products? Used them for decades. I grow large tropical fruit trees in a greenhouse with an 18' ridge. They are in (expandable) RootBuilder "pots" that are bottomless. Meaning the roots eventually grow into native soil. rootmaker.com

How can I use Spin-Out for chemical root pruning?

Contributed by: Uncle Ben Root Pruning by Chemical Means A while back I took an interest in using root pruning chemical products on a trial basis with Cannabis and other plant material. These products use a copper base and are sprayed or painted on the inside of the pot to achieve root-tip...

overgrow.com

The only reason why I innoculate my field crops and other perennials is because when I prep I destroy healthy soil eco system via mechanical means. Like this subsoiler with a broad knife edge that's mounted to a 3 pt. tractor rig. I bust up my heavy clay loam down to a depth of 2'. Huge chunks are left on top. I then bust them down into a powder with a tiller.

Rainwater, which I collect in 2 large tanks is also full of microbes and nitrates....so they say.

Zamal root mass, 2001. Note the "Uncle Ben 4 main colas" scaffold branches post harvest, as an aside. That is a thick, heavy root mass, notice the strain in my hand/wrist.

No gimmicks, no (stupid) cannabis specific supplements, no myco.....probably Peters or off the shelf Walmart fertilizer.

Roothairs, you do know not all species have them, take orchids and avocado trees - none.

Uncle Ben

 

[xtsho]

Coco and synthetic nutes. No need for mycos. Root mass is fine. Growing out the bottom of the pot and on the surface.

Soil without added mycos. I don't see any need to buy a product to increase root mass when the roots do just fine without. Here's a trick to get your roots to grow better, don't overwater your plants which is something many seem to do because they just have to do something.

Maybe some of the proponents of using these products can give me a logical reason to spend my money on them. I don't have issues with root growth so what benefit would I be getting?

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

Coco and synthetic nutes. No need for mycos. Root mass is fine. Growing out the bottom of the pot and on the surface.

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Soil without added mycos. I don't see any need to buy a product to increase root mass when the roots do just fine without. Here's a trick to get your roots to grow better, don't overwater your plants which is something many seem to do because they just have to do something.

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Maybe some of the proponents of using these products can give me a logical reason to spend my money on them. I don't have issues with root growth so what benefit would I be getting?

Great job. Like to see you try root pruning products. You've got some extreme root spin out going on. I've gone to MicroKote because Griffin's is so hard to find and is expensive.

As an aside don't know if you plant perennials but if you do you may have realized the biggest enemy when planting is correcting root issues upon upcanning or planting in the ground. The following will stunt or kill annuals and perennials alike - J rooting, root girdling and/or spin-out. Did you pull or break apart the root spin out at the very bottom of that squared off ball before moving up?

These germ pots were really rootbound, which I broke up before upcanning them to 2.5 gal. MicroKote painted pots.

Worked well. Root system was such a solid mass that I had to beat it against the ground about 20X to break it up, harvest the original soil. This was a re-vegged indica so it was pretty old.

Uncle Ben