Microorganisms for soil - recommend me a good product

[GrayZone]

So I figured out what nutes to use(BioCanna), got some BioBizz light mix, and Hesi's SuperVit for some amino acids.
But this is like those Russian dolls, you open one, and there's another one, and another one...

I've seen some products online but never used any of those, so I'm not sure what's good.

Can anyone recommend a good product to add the micro gang to the soil? Needs to be available in Europe.

This is available in my local growshop. Thou I'm not familiar with the brand, it seems to have a ton of myco this and bacillus that, so I guess it's alright..?

Mycorrhiza Endo & Ecto Mykoriza premium

Contains the entirely organic concentrated powder 18 Endo&Ecto mycorrhizal fungi, 5 species of Trichoderma, beneficial bacteria and microorganisms.

www.organicsnutrients.com

 

[KIS]

Suboptimal based on the high levels of ecto mycorrhizal fungi in there. I do not understand why companies insist on putting endo and ecto in the same product. I think it's because most growers don't know what species and types of mycorrhizal fungi infect which plants. If you want a deeper dive on the topic

If you want some recommendations for microbe products I'd consider Miicrobial Mass or Mammoth P if either is available but they are not myco products. For mycorrhizal fungi, I'd look at DynoMyco or Plant Success.

 

[chilliwilli]

I like mykorrhiza soluble from tyroler glückspilze.
Dev overkill for cannabis because it has a broad spectrum of mycos but i use it on every kind of plant i have.

​

 

[Verdant Whisperer]

I can't recommend a specific brand but heres a post from my blog that could help you learn to use them better:

HARNESSING BENEFICIAL MICROORGANISMS FOR OPTIMAL CANNABIS GROWTH​

Introduction:
Cannabis cultivation is a delicate process that requires careful attention to various factors, including soil health, nutrient availability, and pest management. One often-overlooked aspect is the role of microorganisms in promoting plant growth and safeguarding against diseases. In this article, we will explore five key microorganisms that can significantly benefit cannabis cultivation and provide a comprehensive guide on when and how to introduce them for maximum efficacy.

Plant-Growth Promoting Rhizobacteria (PGPR):
Bacillus subtilis MBI600: Bacillus subtilis MBI600 is a powerhouse when it comes to enhancing plant growth. This strain is renowned for its ability to facilitate nutrient uptake, leading to improved overall plant health. When introduced into the soil, it establishes a symbiotic relationship with the cannabis plant, creating a conducive environment for robust growth.

Arbuscular Mycorrhizal (AM) Fungi:
Rhizophagus irregularis (formerly Glomus intraradices): This species is a mycorrhizal fungus that is highly beneficial for cannabis cultivation. It is specific to cannabis and is considered one of the best options for both hemp and marijuana plants. The fungal hyphae of Rhizophagus irregularis attach themselves to the roots of the cannabis plant, effectively tripling the root mass of the plant.

Nitrogen-Fixing Bacteria:
Azospirillum brasilense: Azospirillum is a genus of nitrogen-fixing bacteria that forms beneficial associations with arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. They can enhance plant growth and nutrient uptake, and they are known to work well in conjunction with mycorrhizal fungi.

Beneficial Fungi for Disease Suppression:
Trichoderma harzianum: This fungus acts as a natural antagonist against plant pathogens, helping to protect the plant from diseases.

Biocontrol Agents:
Bacillus thuringiensis kurstaki: This bacterium is used as a biocontrol agent to target caterpillar pests. It produces proteins that are toxic to certain insect larvae, offering a natural and effective pest management solution.

Optimal Application Timeline:

1. Seedling to Week 2: Mycorrhizae Introduction

• During this phase, focus on establishing the mycorrhizal relationship. This will set a strong foundation for nutrient uptake and overall plant health.

1. Weeks 2.5 to 4: Introduce Nitrogen-Fixing Bacteria

• Once the mycorrhizae have had a chance to establish, introduce nitrogen-fixing bacteria. This will further enhance nutrient availability, particularly nitrogen, which is crucial for robust growth.

1. Week 4 and Beyond: Introduce Trichoderma for Disease Suppression

• By this time, your plants should have a strong foundation in both mycorrhizal and bacterial support. Introducing Trichoderma at this stage will help protect against diseases, ensuring continued health and growth.

Maximizing Plant Health: Synergizing Mycorrhizae and Trichoderma Treatments

Starting plants in pots before transplanting them into the field is a common practice in agriculture. This method allows for better control over early growth stages and ensures that plants are well-established before facing the challenges of the field environment. Incorporating beneficial fungi, such as mycorrhizae and Trichoderma, during this initial growth phase can have profound positive effects on plant health and productivity.

Establishing Mycorrhizae: A Foundation for Plant Success

Mycorrhizae are crucial partners for plants, forming mutually beneficial relationships that enhance nutrient uptake and improve stress tolerance. It is recommended to introduce mycorrhizae early in the plant cycle, allowing them 2 to 4 weeks to establish before other applications like Trichoderma or Bacillus subtilis. This foundational step is paramount in ensuring that mycorrhizae have the opportunity to develop a strong symbiotic bond with plant roots.

The Trichoderma Challenge

A critical consideration when incorporating both mycorrhizae and Trichoderma is understanding their respective roles and potential interactions. Trichoderma, known for its biocontrol properties and promotion of growth, can be highly competitive in the rhizosphere due to its larger size and robust nature. In soil environments where Trichoderma is already well-established, mycorrhizae may face challenges in establishing themselves. This is akin to trying to start a seedling in an area with dense vegetation, where limited light and airflow hinder its growth.

The Sequential Approach: Mycorrhizae First
To maximize the benefits of both mycorrhizae and Trichoderma, it is advisable to introduce mycorrhizae during the early stages of plant growth, such as in the potting phase. Allowing mycorrhizae to establish in this controlled environment provides them with the best opportunity to form a strong and mutually beneficial relationship with the plant's roots.

Transplanting into a Trichoderma-Enriched Field

After the mycorrhizae have had the chance to establish themselves, transplanting the seedlings into a field treated with Trichoderma becomes an ideal next step. The established mycorrhizal network can serve as a foundation, allowing for a smoother integration of Trichoderma. The distinct roles of these beneficial fungi can then synergize: mycorrhizae enhancing nutrient uptake and stress tolerance, while Trichoderma provides biocontrol against pathogens and promotes overall plant health.

Conclusion:

Balancing the introduction of mycorrhizae and Trichoderma is crucial for maximizing their benefits without causing competition. Starting with mycorrhizae in the early stages of plant growth, followed by introducing Trichoderma in the field, sets the stage for a harmonious symbiotic relationship. This strategic approach enhances nutrient uptake, promotes plant growth, and provides robust protection against pathogens, ultimately leading to healthier and more productive crops.

 

[chronosync]

Check out : Recharge, photosynthesis plus, em-1

simplest way is to add worm castings or worm tea

 

[chamenon]

Check out : Recharge, photosynthesis plus, em-1

simplest way is to add worm castings or worm tea

Would you have any input on how Recharge compares to DtE Bio-Live? I'm currently using Bio-Live with worm castings and thought about incorporating some recharge, but the content of beneficials look pretty similar. First screenshot is Recharge and the second one is Bio-Live. Would I benefit from the addition of the Recharge or should I seek something else? (Maybe some more mycorrhizae to support Bio-Live's mycorrhizae content?) I'm planning to use Mammoth P for phosphorus as I get closer to flowering stage.

 

[chronosync]

I don’t really know. Verdant seems to have a good idea how this all works. Both those look great. My idea is that if you supply a diverse microbe group of beneficial it will sort itself out. I haven’t used recharge or bio live but would be using either of those if i had them. Right now im using southern ag bio fungicide for the bacillus amyloliquefaciens in a dtw coco setup. Ive used worm castings in place of that as well. I used to use Life+ by hydroponics research when i was using their V+B for coco and that looks pretty similar to recharge.

 

[Verdant Whisperer]

Would you have any input on how Recharge compares to DtE Bio-Live? I'm currently using Bio-Live with worm castings and thought about incorporating some recharge, but the content of beneficials look pretty similar. First screenshot is Recharge and the second one is Bio-Live. Would I benefit from the addition of the Recharge or should I seek something else? (Maybe some more mycorrhizae to support Bio-Live's mycorrhizae content?) I'm planning to use Mammoth P for phosphorus as I get closer to flowering stage.

View attachment 18903752 View attachment 18903753

I would use Recharge first month, then introduce Bio-Live in tea form or top dress watered in, and save your money on the Mammoth P, It may help,but not enough to justify the price, the myco's and trico's in your soil free up way more phosphorous than any bacteria. and be careful with the date's only use fresh innoculants as they lose their potency over time. I keep mine in the refrigerator so they stay fresher. just don't mix with your protein shake.

 

[GrayZone]

Ooo boy, here we go, another rabbit hole...

All those brands, except the Austrian one, aren't easily available in Europe.

@Verdant Whisperer and @chronosync, worm castings is something I can easily get here. So mixing some into BioBizz's Light Mix I've bought, would it be a decent enough substitute for those pre-packed mycros?

Also, if you make worm-casting tea, what's the watering schedule(considering I'll be using BioCanna)?

As worm-casting tea cannot burn plants or cause any nastiness like overuse of mineral nutes would, and you'd use it to add some beneficial microorganisms, is it then enough to apply it once a week? Getting nutes out of it wouldn't be the primary objective as BioCanna would do that.

 

[Hasch]

Ooo boy, here we go, another rabbit hole...

Imho there are many ways to have happy plants.
Feel like it's important to "put your foot down somewhere", as in this is the way I'm gonna do this grow.

Then see where you want to tweek and adjust your methods. And the next grow same same...

 

[Verdant Whisperer]

Ooo boy, here we go, another rabbit hole...

All those brands, except the Austrian one, aren't easily available in Europe.

@Verdant Whisperer and @chronosync, worm castings is something I can easily get here. So mixing some into BioBizz's Light Mix I've bought, would it be a decent enough substitute for those pre-packed mycros?

Also, if you make worm-casting tea, what's the watering schedule(considering I'll be using BioCanna)?

As worm-casting tea cannot burn plants or cause any nastiness like overuse of mineral nutes would, and you'd use it to add some beneficial microorganisms, is it then enough to apply it once a week? Getting nutes out of it wouldn't be the primary objective as BioCanna would do that.

I recommend finding an agricultural supply store in your area in that case *not a hydroponics grow shop. Even here in Central America most Agri Supplies have some form of inoculants. if you can find the myco's and trico's in different presentations that'd be best IMO. as far as worm castings they may contain trichodema fungi, and some good bacterias but your not getting your mycos from the casting, there associated with plants roots there not going to live in castings without living plant roots. If using worm casting tea and already using a nutrient line, i would use it sparingly not using within 2 weeks of each other, or when the plant is a baby. Use at around 100-150 ppm with a Little Molasess, and Brewers yeast. to feed bacteria and fungi. In veg use more bacteria food in tea' and as you transition to flower make your teas more fungal dominant. if your interested in fungal vs bacteria dominant tea mixes, check out the rev's TLO or true living organics,While there are a few points i slightly disagree with in the book and i can see him pushing certain products, but at the same time he makes alot of sense about bacteria and fungal domiant tea mixes. and balanced mixes. and I appreciate Rev's creativity. The rev uses a different tea for veg/flower/ and finihsing.

 

[GrayZone]

Imho there are many ways to have happy plants.
Feel like it's important to "put your foot down somewhere", as in this is the way I'm gonna do this grow.

Then see where you want to tweek and adjust your methods. And the next grow same same...

Agreed. Growing isn't necessarily an exact science. However, this is still pretty basic, what I'm asking here. It seems the bio path has different requirements to work well when it comes to solid and your nutes. I used mineral nutes so far, so I just want to get the basics right without getting PhD in microbiology.

I recommend finding an agricultural supply store in your areaif you can find the myco's and trico's in different presentations that'd be best IMO. as far as worm castings they may contain trichodema fungi, and some good bacterias but your not getting your mycos from the casting, there associated with plants roots there not going to live in castings without living plant roots. If using worm casting tea and already using a nutrient line, i would use it sparingly not using within 2 weeks of each other, or when the plant is a baby. Use at around 100-150 ppm with a Little Molasess, and Brewers yeast. to feed bacteria and fungi. In veg use more bacteria food in tea' and as you transition to flower make your teas more fungal dominant. if your interested in fungal vs bacteria dominant tea mixes, check out the rev's TLO or true living organics,While there are a few points i slightly disagree with in the book and i can see him pushing certain products, but at the same time he makes alot of sense about bacteria and fungal domiant tea mixes. and balanced mixes. and I appreciate Rev's creativity. The rev uses a different tea for veg/flower/ and finihsing.

Ya, that's more than I'm willing to go down that rabbit hole

Well, you're right. I went today to an agri store to look for worm castings and there was a small container with(I think powder) fungi and the rest of the micro-gang. It wasn't that expensive so I'll probably grab a pack.

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

Suboptimal based on the high levels of ecto mycorrhizal fungi in there. I do not understand why companies insist on putting endo and ecto in the same product. I think it's because most growers don't know what species and types of mycorrhizal fungi infect which plants. If you want a deeper dive on the topic

If you want some recommendations for microbe products I'd consider Miicrobial Mass or Mammoth P if either is available but they are not myco products. For mycorrhizal fungi, I'd look at DynoMyco or Plant Success.

There is nothing wrong with mixing ectos and endos. They don't negate each other. There has been some disagreement amongst microbiologists about adding trichoderma bacteria to their mychor products, claiming it can have a harmful effect on soil microbes.

I have used mychorrizae products on field crops (trees, vineyard, veggies, etc), greenhouse crops (large tropical fruit trees which I graft) and cannabis. Like all short lived annuals, it has little to no positive affect regarding the soil eco system. IOW, you're wasting your money. It takes months, IF, you have a viable product (and you won't know because you don't have a lab to test the claimed LIVE propagules) to establish a synergesic relationship at the root zone.

I've used MycoApply products and VAM. Like all cannabis specific products, I stay away from those sold by such cannabis related vendors.

Here's a shot of a re-vegged Lapis Mtn. Indica root ball early this year. Meaning, it had been in the same pot for a good 6 months or more.

Now here's the REAL benefit - the pot had been painted with a root pruning paint, MicroKote. https://www.microkote.com/shop/ This induces root tip termination inducing a VERY profuse, dense mass of roots with no spin out or other root issues. Think of it as tipping, or topping, but below ground. Branching.....same effect. Some of you may have seen my experiment using Griffin's Spin-Out. https://overgrow.com/t/how-can-i-use-spin-out-for-chemical-root-pruning/258 I also employ root pruning systems such as RootMaker.com. Folks, it's ALL about the roots, period. The rest will come, IF, you have a massive, healthy root system.

This is where you'll get good root production and excellent root efficiency. Notice little to no root spin-out?

Mychorrizae? Perennials YES. Annuals NO.

Uncle Ben

 

[Frankenbeanie]

Poop has microbes. Manure applications will make or break a farm. In fact 75 years ago you weren't farming if you didn't have animals.

 

[Verdant Whisperer]

.

 

[KIS]

There is nothing wrong with mixing ectos and endos. They don't negate each other. There has been some disagreement amongst microbiologists about adding trichoderma bacteria to their mychor products, claiming it can have a harmful effect on soil microbes.

I have used mychorrizae products on field crops (trees, vineyard, veggies, etc), greenhouse crops (large tropical fruit trees which I graft) and cannabis. Like all short lived annuals, it has little to no positive affect regarding the soil eco system. IOW, you're wasting your money. It takes months, IF, you have a viable product (and you won't know because you don't have a lab to test the claimed LIVE propagules) to establish a synergesic relationship at the root zone.

I've used MycoApply products and VAM. Like all cannabis specific products, I stay away from those sold by such cannabis related vendors.

Here's a shot of a re-vegged Lapis Mtn. Indica root ball early this year. Meaning, it had been in the same pot for a good 6 months or more.

Now here's the REAL benefit - the pot had been painted with a root pruning paint, MicroKote. https://www.microkote.com/shop/ This induces root tip termination inducing a VERY profuse, dense mass of roots with no spin out or other root issues. Think of it as tipping, or topping, but below ground. Branching.....same effect. Some of you may have seen my experiment using Griffin's Spin-Out. https://overgrow.com/t/how-can-i-use-spin-out-for-chemical-root-pruning/258 I also employ root pruning systems such as RootMaker.com. Folks, it's ALL about the roots, period. The rest will come, IF, you have a massive, healthy root system.

This is where you'll get good root production and excellent root efficiency. Notice little to no root spin-out?


View attachment 18904584


View attachment 18904585

Mychorrizae? Perennials YES. Annuals NO.

Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben, agreed that echo doesn't hurt, but it doesn't help either and the higher spore counts is misleading to folks who don't know that echo mycorrhizal fungi don't infect cannabis (or most plants for that matter).

Research on trichoderma is mixed but latest research I've seen seems to show a symbiosis. The biggest antagonist to mycorrhizal infection is high P in soil solution. The MycoApply is a perfectly good product too, thanks for mentioning it. I don't believe they make their own g. intraradices but buy it in from Premier. The ones I listed are the actual manufacturers of their own strains.

I would only disagree regarding your comment on infection rates and potential impact on annuals. Dr. Kapulnik states infection can happen in a matter of days (I believe he says 5, and you can see an impact within a few weeks). If this is true, then it seems like it would be worth a root application to young cuttings or seeds, though application at transplant or flip to flower may be less beneficial.

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

Uncle Ben, agreed that echo doesn't hurt, but it doesn't help either and the higher spore counts is misleading to folks who don't know that echo mycorrhizal fungi don't infect cannabis (or most plants for that matter).

Research on trichoderma is mixed but latest research I've seen seems to show a symbiosis. The biggest antagonist to mycorrhizal infection is high P in soil solution. The MycoApply is a perfectly good product too, thanks for mentioning it. I don't believe they make their own g. intraradices but buy it in from Premier. The ones I listed are the actual manufacturers of their own strains.

I would only disagree regarding your comment on infection rates and potential impact on annuals. Dr. Kapulnik states infection can happen in a matter of days (I believe he says 5, and you can see an impact within a few weeks). If this is true, then it seems like it would be worth a root application to young cuttings or seeds, though application at transplant or flip to flower may be less beneficial.

Do you see any networking in the rootball? No you don't. Maybe the 2 products I applied to the rootball are dead. I store my stuff in the fridge and use it ASAP, so, hoo nose?

 

[Verdant Whisperer]

Do you see any networking in the rootball? No you don't. Maybe the 2 products I applied to the rootball are dead. I store my stuff in the fridge and use it ASAP, so, hoo nose?

View attachment 18904937

I imagine all the strains will have a root structure that corresponds to their hormonal profiles, they say if you flip a tree upside down thats how its roots look, don't take that literally, but you get my point, i imagine a squat indica will have a totally different root structure than a tall sativa.

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

I imagine all the strains will have a root structure that corresponds to their hormonal profiles, they say if you flip a tree upside down thats how its roots look, don't take that literally, but you get my point, i imagine a squat indica will have a totally different root structure than a tall sativa.

Root structures are the same whether pure sativas or indicas.

 

[GrayZone]

Alright, so I'll save some 13 bucks on fungi that apparently don't work.

That's the industry problem, hard to know what is marketing and BS and what actually works.