Liver issues

[delta9nxs]

he does take an immunosuppresant to fight off rejection, would the prescription medication have anything to do with it?

thanks for your insight delta it helps

if he is only taking one and he is several years from transplant it is probably Prograf, which is the drug tacrolimus. while it does have possible side effects itself the isolating factor is that he only gets this sensation after smoking.

he is probably taking .5-1.0 mg twice per day so that's 1-2 mg total, not much.

the people taking multiple anti-rejection drugs are getting higher doses of all of them. possibly up to four but there are three main ones.

unless this event happens any other time than using cannabis i wouldn't worry about it.

if it hurts there is nothing he can do about it except take a few tylenol about an hour before smoking. it's the only over the counter pain reliever liver transplants can take. tell him to take two of those 650 mg arthritis formula caps.

 

[SeaMaiden]

And here I thought Tylenol would be a no-no since it's metabolized by the liver and is supposed to be harder on liver and liver function. I am going to love my liver as long as I can!

I want to offer blessings on all of you who are transplantees. I had a dear, dear friend years ago who was a transplantee, liver. He is no longer with us, he purposely allowed himself to go into rejection one final time and that was it. He wasn't prepared to live a long life as a transplantee, it's a difficult existence, as I'm sure you already know, but many others who aren't familiar don't.

Very interesting information here guys.. As to the Glycogen/Tauroursodeoxycholic acid, you all need to be checking you Keto-sticks. A positive result means you are burning calories which are not available without the liver releasing the chemical which causes the burning of stored energy.

http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/ketostix-reagent-strips-for-urinalysis/ID=prod19769-product


Regarding cannabis increasing the metabolism, well, that may be a form of psychogenic shock, a.k.a. paranoia and self-induced stress. I never read a study which said cannabis is a CNS stimulant or depressant.


as an EMT, i should ask Captain Obvious.. When many people inhale cannabis, they try to combat respiratory reflux by "holding-in-the-toke" and avoid coughing. Every time you cough, your diaphragm will contract and so will your abdominal muscles. Repeated coughing will certainly cause physical trauma to a liver transplant.

Ok, as *I* understand it, there is at least one cannabinoid that causes a drop in blood sugar (glycogen?), which is why many people get the munchies or cravings. How this might affect a new liver I have no idea, but that's how I understand it. I understand that this has implications for diabetes control, too.

Storm Shadow, I suggest he asks his medical doctor before consuming those after-market chemicals. You never know, much of that shit is not approved by the FDA and quality control. That crap from China might sit in a dungeon of a "medical lab", with all the cheapest shit to make it. Many people are going through stages when they have cancer. Some people refuse to admit to themselves how serious it is and they always want to be pro-active. Being pro-active to treat an illness is great, just don`t be gullible by thinking there is some "undiscovered miracle cure". ~esp if its made in china~

they have NO quality control and the only want your money.

FDA-approved doesn't really mean a thing. The best one can truthfully hope for is that the FDA has determined it won't kill you. But they've approved bullshit like cold lasers. That doesn't mean they work, especially as advertised. It only means that the FDA has ostensibly decided it won't kill you. Which ultimately doesn't mean a whole lot. They're not like the UL, that much is for sure.
(I have a friend who worked for the FDA and now works for a gov't contractor under auspices of FDA. The shit he's got to say about the FDA ain't pretty.)

Personally, I'd be more afraid of those eastern European suppliers than the Chinese.

 

[slightlysolid]

if he is only taking one and he is several years from transplant it is probably Prograf, which is the drug tacrolimus. while it does have possible side effects itself the isolating factor is that he only gets this sensation after smoking.

he is probably taking .5-1.0 mg twice per day so that's 1-2 mg total, not much.

the people taking multiple anti-rejection drugs are getting higher doses of all of them. possibly up to four but there are three main ones.

unless this event happens any other time than using cannabis i wouldn't worry about it.

if it hurts there is nothing he can do about it except take a few tylenol about an hour before smoking. it's the only over the counter pain reliever liver transplants can take. tell him to take two of those 650 mg arthritis formula caps.

he told me he is currently taking 7 mg of prograf a day and something called bactrim 1 time three days a week... he also mentioned as the high subsides, so does the pain/discomfort as well, and that the pain is not so horrible that it is debilitating but its there and it can become pretty uncomfortable for him

 

[delta9nxs]

he told me he is currently taking 7 mg of prograf a day and something called bactrim 1 time three days a week... he also mentioned as the high subsides, so does the pain/discomfort as well, and that the pain is not so horrible that it is debilitating but its there and it can become pretty uncomfortable for him

his transplant date sounds more recent than 2 years as they start you on high doses of several anti-reject meds at first then work you off of them progressively.

the pain rising with smoking and then subsiding as it wears off points again to vasoconstriction and associated nerve damage. blood pressure going up and down.

a few checks with a bp cuff would be interesting.

 

[Stondestmanaliv]

one of the first physiologic effects of cannabis is vasoconstriction. this is evidenced by a slight rise in both systolic and diastolic blood pressure. typically on the order of 20 points +- regardless of method of ingestion.

when they cut you open for transplant they cut a million little tiny blood vessels with everything else and they take time to heal.

The first comment is nonsense... my BP is 112/72, mid 30s, 200lbs, STONED TO THE FUCKING BONE! I ingest anywhere between 3-5 grams a day of high quality cannabis. Cannabis DOES NOT cause a flux in my cardiovascular system.

The second comment I quoted from you is PERFECTLY accurate. It will takes years to heal properly and it might not ever be like the original.

 

[Stondestmanaliv]

Bactrim is a powerful antibiotic.. Bactrim and Tylenol are very harmful to the liver. Consult a physician.

Someone said something about cannabis causing a drop in blood-sugar and that`s what causes the munchies. lol.. Where do some people get this information?

Cannabis is almost identical to a natural chemical in the brain which causes a release of natural hormones to the body/liver to store fat. ...its the brain sending signals to the rest of the body. More cannabis means you store more fat. Less cannabis/endocannabinoids will cause the body to burn MUCH faster and MUCH hotter. So.. many of you say cannabis increases your ability to burn energy in the liver, this is wrong. It is the opposite... Less endocannabinoids (natural in your body) will make you burn calories MUCH faster.. Cannabis should make a person burn calories much slower.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/07/marijuana-diet-pill-may-be-possible_n_1326316.html

In the new study, blocking the activity of endocannabinoids in the brain enabled mice to stay skinny without exercise or dieting. The researchers explained that the mice were in a "hypermetabolic state," in which their bodies were using up energy (that is, calories) at a much higher rate than normal.

 

[slightlysolid]

his transplant date sounds more recent than 2 years as they start you on high doses of several anti-reject meds at first then work you off of them progressively.

the pain rising with smoking and then subsiding as it wears off points again to vasoconstriction and associated nerve damage. blood pressure going up and down.

a few checks with a bp cuff would be interesting.

he had his transplant 4 yrs and 2 months ago. i advised him to talk to his doctor so we'll see how that goes

 

[Truthman]

Bactrim is a powerful antibiotic.. Bactrim and Tylenol are very harmful to the liver. Consult a physician.

Someone said something about cannabis causing a drop in blood-sugar and that`s what causes the munchies. lol.. Where do some people get this information? [/url]

I stated that is the reason for the paranoia and anxiety you get sometimes. I seen it work for myself, and others. Even in Amsterdam they give you sugar or orange juice when you wig out or pass out from strong herb.



BTW, that article is just referring to cannabinoids, but the essential oils play a big part in how the herb effects you. Do some research on that also.

 

[Truthman]

he had his transplant 4 yrs and 2 months ago. i advised him to talk to his doctor so we'll see how that goes

Make sure he tells the doctor it happens when he puffs herb so he can get a more detailed answer. Also, tell him to ask will constipation have anything to do with it. A lot of people don't realize how much constipation effects our health. The gut is sometimes called the second brain due to being so high in nerves and can cause problems once it goes out of whack.

 

[Stondestmanaliv]

BTW, that article is just referring to cannabinoids, but the essential oils play a big part in how the herb effects you. Do some research on that also.

yup, i`ll look into it. It`s sad I can`t find the "perfect" data on hobby interests. I guess prohibition is making science retarded. We have more information on the effects of cocaine/opium than we do on cannabis. Everyone knows that is f_king retarded, especially for the benefit of science. ..I just don`t see how so many things are acceptable, but cannabis is a taboo. makes no sense at all..

I think it`s so terrible to not study cannabis simply because it`s a medical taboo. ... Of which, this is one of the reasons why i`m here. I love knowledge but I despise prohibition on responsible cannabis usage through proper medical reasoning. If there are harmful effects of cannabis usage, I would like to study them. I am from California, born and raised. I`ve smoked weed everyday for 20 years and my lungs are perfectly healthy, no COPD. I`m in my mid-30s. I run/jog and stay physically fit. I have a job and I`m also a student with very good grades. My body is perfectly healthy, as stated by my M.D. I like cannabis but I WILL fact-check everything I can, as best as i can. ..thats my story with cannabis, it`s NEVER caused me any problems at all and i`ve prob smoked 50lbs of refer in my life. lol

 

[Storm Shadow]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21704641

Life Sci. 2011 Aug 1;89(5-6):165-70. doi: 10.1016/j.lfs.2011.05.018. Epub 2011 Jun 16.
Identification of cytochrome P450 enzymes responsible for metabolism of cannabidiol by human liver microsomes.

Jiang R, Yamaori S, Takeda S, Yamamoto I, Watanabe K.
Source

Department of Hygienic Chemistry, Hokuriku University, Ho-3 Kanagawa-machi, Kanazawa, Japan.

Abstract

AIMS:

Cannabidiol (CBD), one of the major constituents in marijuana, has been shown to be extensively metabolized by experimental animals and humans. However, human hepatic enzymes responsible for the CBD metabolism remain to be elucidated. In this study, we examined in vitro metabolism of CBD with human liver microsomes (HLMs) to clarify cytochrome P450 (CYP) isoforms involved in the CBD oxidations.
MAIN METHODS:

Oxidations of CBD in HLMs and recombinant human CYP enzymes were analyzed by gas chromatography/mass spectrometry.
KEY FINDINGS:

CBD was metabolized by pooled HLMs to eight monohydroxylated metabolites (6α-OH-, 6β-OH-, 7-OH-, 1″-OH-, 2″-OH-, 3″-OH-, 4″-OH-, and 5″-OH-CBDs). Among these metabolites, 6α-OH-, 6β-OH-, 7-OH-, and 4″-OH-CBDs were the major ones as estimated from the relative abundance of m/z 478, which was a predominant fragment ion of trimethylsilyl derivatives of the metabolites. Seven of 14 recombinant human CYP enzymes examined (CYP1A1, CYP1A2, CYP2C9, CYP2C19, CYP2D6, CYP3A4, and CYP3A5) were capable of metabolizing CBD. The correlations between CYP isoform-specific activities and CBD oxidative activities in 16 individual HLMs indicated that 6β-OH- and 4″-OH-CBDs were mainly formed by CYP3A4, which was supported by inhibition studies using ketoconazole and an anti-CYP3A4 antibody. The correlation and inhibition studies also showed that CBD 6α-hydroxylation was mainly catalyzed by CYP3A4 and CYP2C19, whereas CBD 7-hydroxylation was predominantly catalyzed by CYP2C19.
SIGNIFICANCE:

This study indicated that CBD was extensively metabolized by HLMs. These results suggest that CYP3A4 and CYP2C19 may be major isoforms responsible for 6α-, 6β-, 7-, and/or 4″-hydroxylations of CBD in HLMs.

 

[Storm Shadow]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21254182


Hepatology. 2011 Jan;53(1):346-55. doi: 10.1002/hep.24077.
Endocannabinoids in liver disease.

Tam J, Liu J, Mukhopadhyay B, Cinar R, Godlewski G, Kunos G.
Source

National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD 20892-9413, USA.

Abstract

Endocannabinoids are lipid mediators of the same cannabinoid (CB) receptors that mediate the effects of marijuana. The endocannabinoid system (ECS) consists of CB receptors, endocannabinoids, and the enzymes involved in their biosynthesis and degradation, and it is present in both brain and peripheral tissues, including the liver. The hepatic ECS is activated in various liver diseases and contributes to the underlying pathologies. In patients with cirrhosis of various etiologies, the activation of vascular and cardiac CB(1) receptors by macrophage-derived and platelet-derived endocannabinoids contributes to the vasodilated state and cardiomyopathy, which can be reversed by CB(1) blockade. In mouse models of liver fibrosis, the activation of CB(1) receptors on hepatic stellate cells is fibrogenic, and CB(1) blockade slows the progression of fibrosis. Fatty liver induced by a high-fat diet or chronic alcohol feeding depends on the activation of peripheral receptors, including hepatic CB(1) receptors, which also contribute to insulin resistance and dyslipidemias. Although the documented therapeutic potential of CB(1) blockade is limited by neuropsychiatric side effects, these may be mitigated by using novel, peripherally restricted CB(1) antagonists.
Copyright © 2010 American Association for the Study of Liver Diseases

 

[Storm Shadow]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20460921

Dig Dis. 2010;28(1):261-6. Epub 2010 May 7.
Endocannabinoids and their role in fatty liver disease.

Mallat A, Lotersztajn S.
Source

AP-HP, INSERM U841, Groupe hospitalier Henri Mondor-Albert Chenevier, Service d'Hépatologie et de Gastroentérologie, Créteil, France. [email protected]

Abstract

The endocannabinoid system comprises receptors, CB1 and CB2, their endogenous lipidic ligands and machinery dedicated to endocannabinoid synthesis and degradation. An overactive endocannabinoid system appears to contribute to the pathogenesis of several diseases, including liver diseases. With the increasing incidence of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD) in parallel with the obesity epidemic, the development of effective therapies is gaining considerable interest. Several recent experimental lines of evidence identify CB receptors as potential novel therapeutic targets in the management of NAFLD. Endogenous activation of peripheral CB1 receptors is a key mediator of insulin resistance and enhances liver lipogenesis in experimental models of NAFLD. Moreover, we have shown that adipose tissue CB2 receptors are markedly upregulated and promote fat inflammation, thereby contributing to insulin resistance and liver steatosis. Data from our group also indicate that tonic activation of CB1 receptors is responsible for progression of liver fibrosis, whereas CB2 receptors display anti-fibrogenic properties. The clinical relevance of these findings is supported by studies in patients with chronic hepatitis C indicating that daily cannabis use is an independent predictor of both fibrosis and steatosis severity. Moreover, preliminary data derived from clinical trials strongly suggest that selective CB1 antagonism improves insulin resistance and reduces liver fat. Tempering these promises, the first generation of CB1 antagonists raised concern due to an alarming rate of mood disorders and the development program of these molecules was suspended. Current research efforts are therefore focused on developing formulations of CB1 antagonists that do not enter the central nervous system, and preliminary experimental data obtained with such molecules are encouraging.
Copyright 2010 S. Karger AG, Basel.

 

[Truthman]

yup, i`ll look into it. It`s sad I can`t find the "perfect" data on hobby interests. I guess prohibition is making science retarded. We have more information on the effects of cocaine/opium than we do on cannabis. Everyone knows that is f_king retarded, especially for the benefit of science. ..I just don`t see how so many things are acceptable, but cannabis is a taboo. makes no sense at all..

I think it`s so terrible to not study cannabis simply because it`s a medical taboo. ... Of which, this is one of the reasons why i`m here. I love knowledge but I despise prohibition on responsible cannabis usage through proper medical reasoning. If there are harmful effects of cannabis usage, I would like to study them. I am from California, born and raised. I`ve smoked weed everyday for 20 years and my lungs are perfectly healthy, no COPD. I`m in my mid-30s. I run/jog and stay physically fit. I have a job and I`m also a student with very good grades. My body is perfectly healthy, as stated by my M.D. I like cannabis but I WILL fact-check everything I can, as best as i can. ..thats my story with cannabis, it`s NEVER caused me any problems at all and i`ve prob smoked 50lbs of refer in my life. lol

I was JUST like you, and used to read about people wigging out or passing out from cannabis, and thought I was reading testimonials about something else because I never experienced paranoia or anxiety like that, let alone passing out, UNTIL one day I had some strong herb from Canada, and I didn't eat enough food that morning before puffing it. It was good for a couple of minutes, BUT all of a sudden I started getting scared that the people were looking at me from outside the window, and they were going to call the police on me.

Then, I went to lay down to calm down but once I looked in the mirror I kept finding something wrong with me. It was like I was going through all these negative emotions, even some small pain, and I felt so sad. I realized, I needed some food, and then slowly things got better. I never had an episode like that again because now I eat my whole foods before doing anything.

This is why I try to give advise using simple methods because when I used to go on OG(overgow) and read these stories it would be people telling the person it's all in their mind, they were in a negative area, take a certain pill, etc. but no one stated it could be their blood sugar is low, so I try to tell people that could be their problem, and 99% of the time it is. This time it wasn't, but I think it may have to do with his gut and being constipated, not from his liver since he had his surgery so long ago, and he has such a poor diet. I used to eat horrible also and my gut wasn't the best, and used to have heartburn as well as constipation and it effected my health. It was when I decided to try a new route and change my diet that things have gotten better for me. I have seen how food plays such a major part on your health. I'm glad I seen it while I was young instead of it slowly creeping on me and hitting me when I got old like most people.

Anyway, I know we got off to a bad start, but forgive me if I took things too far and disrespected you. We are brothers in our views of cannabis so fighting is useless. We have enough enemies.

 

[delta9nxs]

The first comment is nonsense... my BP is 112/72, mid 30s, 200lbs, STONED TO THE FUCKING BONE! I ingest anywhere between 3-5 grams a day of high quality cannabis. Cannabis DOES NOT cause a flux in my cardiovascular system.

The second comment I quoted from you is PERFECTLY accurate. It will takes years to heal properly and it might not ever be like the original.

so what's your point? i'm 62, 200 lbs, normal bp is 118/74 with a 64 resting pulse.
my bp goes up slightly when i use cannabis. on my desk next to me is a bp cuff that i use regularly.

we are all have different responses.

i use at least as much as you do and have been using cannabis since 1965. before cancer i could free dive 100 ft and stay down 3 min. this was at 45 years of age. i ride a bike 12 miles before breakfast every morning. i am not fat and am in great cardiovascular condition. i can still swim all day long. leap tall buildings with a single bound. pee further than any man alive.

but in this context it is as meaningless as your statement that bp rising with cannabis consumption is nonsense.

you can't say that because something does or does not happen to you that others are or are not experiencing it.

all i did was explore the possibility that a small change in bp triggers his pain response. there really is not much else.

he doesn't get it any other time.

have you ever used a bp cuff while ingesting cannabis?

anyway, i'm not mad at you or anything like that. i will advise you not to make blatantly offensive statements no matter the case. it reduces your stature.

have a good'un!

 

[delta9nxs]

he had his transplant 4 yrs and 2 months ago. i advised him to talk to his doctor so we'll see how that goes

you bet, if he has had his liver that long and is still on that large of a combination dose he is having a more difficult time than i did.

it is best to be totally honest with your doctors. after transplant. before you get an organ they own you, after transplant you own them. they can't repo it.

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, slightlysolid, i don't think either you or i want to be part of this little pissing contest anymore so i'm bailing. if you or your friend want to talk please pm.

tell your friend i said good luck and i hope he feels better.

later, d9

 

[headband 707]

Oh my GOD! 600mg/kg? That would be more than 2 ounces of pure THC. I know for a fact if I just sat here and ate 3 ounces of 65% THC hash, I would go fucking crazy..

Ya buddy, that psychogenic shock.

LOL would you really ?? or you just might knock yourself right out lolheadband 707

 

[headband 707]

I found this on the net. it might be helpful to some delta9nxs probalby knows this.

I found this on the net. it might be helpful to some delta9nxs probalby knows this.

About Anti-Rejection Drugs
Anti-rejection drugs, or immunosuppressants, are given to the vast majority of transplant patients. Having to take these drugs is life altering for many transplant patients. For most transplant patients, the benefit of living outweighs the lifestyle change and even the risk factors associated with these drugs. New discoveries and advances are constantly being made to reduce the risks associated with these drugs.
Other People Are Reading
The Facts
After an organ transplant, most recipients are prescribed a medicine regime that is centered on an anti-rejection drug. Often, the patient will have to take other medications also. Among these are blood pressure medicines, diuretics and anti-fungal medications. For most people, taking medicine is something that they may forget. This isn't a possibility for transplant recipients. Forgetting to take even one dose of any medicine or altering the time it is taken can have dire consequences.
Function
Organ rejection is caused when the recipient's body recognizes the new organ as a foreign body. After a patient has an organ transplant, he is often given anti-rejection drugs. These lessen the possibility of his body rejecting the organ by suppressing his immune system. While a patient is adjusting to these drugs, he is usually kept in a sterile environment because he is more susceptible to germs. During this time, even a cold can be deadly.
&&&&&&

5) Foods you must not eat
Cut down a bit of stomach fat every day by never eating these 5 foods.
Beyonddiet.com
Misconceptions
Some people believe that every transplant patient is destined to live a life scheduled around an anti-rejection drug regime. This is not true. Scientists at Stanford University and Lucile Packard Children's Hospital have found a pattern of gene expression in some patients that have had successful transplants without using anti-rejection drugs. This means that transplant patients who have this pattern of gene expression probably won't need anti-rejection drugs. For patients already on the drugs, weaning them off is a possibility.
Benefits
Anti-rejection drugs increase the chance of a recipient's body accepting the transplanted organ so she can live longer than she would have been able to without the new organ. While these drugs do have a lot of risks, there are some surprising benefits to taking them. For instance, people who are taking anti-rejection drugs are less likely to suffer from Huntington's disease and certain types of autoimmune diseases.
Risk Factors
Anti-rejection drugs are fairly safe if they are taken for a short period of time. This, however, is hardly ever the case. Anti-rejection drugs may cause serious medical conditions, such as diabetes and cancer, if they are taken for a prolonged period. In some cases, doctors reduce the dosage or frequency to lessen the chance of this happening. Another risk is infection. Some patients may develop an infection in a major organ, such as the heart. Hospitalization is often required to fight the infection.


Read more: About Anti-Rejection Drugs | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_4565188_antirejection-drugs.html#ixzz29fDf8Gdn

"SMOKING AND ALCOHOL
You should not smoke cigarettes, cigars, pipes or marijuana!!!! Smoking narrows your
blood vessels which can be harmful to your liver and kidneys. Smoking also makes you
predisposed to lung infections. Marijuana causes your levels for your anti-rejection
medications, i.e. Neoral and Prograf to be very low, which could lead to rejection.
Marijuana also grows a fungus, known as Aspergillus (aspergillosis), which can cause death in the
transplanted patient!!!!!"

 

[SeaMaiden]

Someone said something about cannabis causing a drop in blood-sugar and that`s what causes the munchies. lol.. Where do some people get this information?

Actual scientific papers, published, peer reviewed and cited.

It's wonderful that you're a first responder, honestly. But right now I'm not getting you or your attitude. If you're an expert in cannabinoids and endocannabinoids, why are you still just a simple first responder? Go to school and get your medical degree, then come back to us with your vast expertise. Furthermore, you're arguing with one transplantee who seems to really know his/her shit. Why? And why the level of ridicule towards others coming from you?

Apparently you've managed to drive off the two most important people in what was a discussion.