Liver issues

[slightlysolid]

Long story short, a friend of mine had a liver transplant a few years ago and is doing fine now and recently started smoking cannabis regularly... However he says the 'higher' he gets, the more pain it causes his liver and he cannot figure out why. He also mentioned to me that his blood tests always come back normal and there is actually never any issues with liver numbers as well, so hes got no clue what is going on. So does anyone have any ideas as to why this is happening?

 

[Truthman]

I don't know, but it may be his liver is burning glycogen as he is getting higher to use it for energy to metabolize the cannabis. Tell him to eat some fruit 30 minutes before puffing and see if he still has these problems. Come back to the site, and let me know how it goes, because I would like to know what is going on also.

 

[slightlysolid]

Thank you very much for the advice, I'll talk to him about it and get back to you on what happened. Also, is there a specific fruit or a certain amount that you would suggest?

 

[Truthman]

He can eat any type of fruit that's available at most supermarkets like apples, oranges, bananas, etc., and he should eat at least two of them 30 minutes before puffing. If it is his liver glycogen, there is more he can do but I want to make sure this may be his problem before going into that.

 

[delta9nxs]

as someone who also has had a liver transplant in the last few years i don't think his liver pain is food related.

glycogen is mostly stored not "burned" in the liver.

when a damaged liver is removed there is major traumatic damage done to the nerves connected to it. although they do a great job of re-attaching many of the larger ones they just cannot do them all.

after surgery there will be a lot of regrowth of damaged nerves but, again, not all come back to full function.

i ingest thc in huge quantities and have absolutely no liver pain whatsoever. most of the people i have met who also have had liver transplants report no liver pain.

i get continuous pain from the area around recent intestinal surgery, where a large number of nerves were also cut.

cannabis helps there.

when you get a transplant you are getting a very healthy liver so the liver itself is probably not the source of pain.

so my vote on this is for nerve pain. perhaps he's experiencing sensations brought on by cannabis similar to the sensations amputees report.

cannabis can make some folks hyper sensitive to pain.

long after amputation some people claim sensation in the missing limb.

as long as his labs look good he's ok.

perhaps a different method of ingestion would help.

does he get the same sensation with edibles?

vaping?

later

 

[dread]

mango mango mango....

 

[Storm Shadow]

Tauroursodeoxycholic acid

Tauroursodeoxycholic acid (TUDCA) is an ambiphilic bile acid. It is the taurine conjugate form of ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA). Humans are found to have trace amounts of TUDCA. However, bears contain large amounts of TUDCA in their bile; UDCA and conjugates comprise about 47% of the bile in American black bears and up to 76% in Asiatic bears.[1] TUDCA has been used in ancient Asian pharmacopoeias for its supposed beneficial effects. UDCA is produced in several countries for the treatment of gallstones and liver cirrhosis. It is not approved by the Food and Drug Administration, in the U.S. while UDCA is approved in the United States for the treatment of primary biliary cirrhosis [2][3] Ongoing research is finding TUDCA has diminishing apoptotic effects, helping with cardiac function, Huntington's disease, Parkinson's Disease, and stroke.[4] Recently, TUDCA has been found to have protective effects in the eye, especially concerning retinal degenerative disorders

 

[headband 707]

Yeah I was also going to say if it's not pesticides? or somthing your friend is reacting to I don't think cannabis is going to your liver unless your on anti-rejection drugs? I might find out what he is taking and see if there is any reactions to other drugs good luck headband 707

 

[delta9nxs]

Tauroursodeoxycholic acid

Tauroursodeoxycholic acid (TUDCA) is an ambiphilic bile acid. It is the taurine conjugate form of ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA). Humans are found to have trace amounts of TUDCA. However, bears contain large amounts of TUDCA in their bile; UDCA and conjugates comprise about 47% of the bile in American black bears and up to 76% in Asiatic bears.[1] TUDCA has been used in ancient Asian pharmacopoeias for its supposed beneficial effects. UDCA is produced in several countries for the treatment of gallstones and liver cirrhosis. It is not approved by the Food and Drug Administration, in the U.S. while UDCA is approved in the United States for the treatment of primary biliary cirrhosis [2][3] Ongoing research is finding TUDCA has diminishing apoptotic effects, helping with cardiac function, Huntington's disease, Parkinson's Disease, and stroke.[4] Recently, TUDCA has been found to have protective effects in the eye, especially concerning retinal degenerative disorders

yes, but he doesn't have a damaged liver anymore.

sounds like great stuff though. i'm going to eat the first bear i see.

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, HB, i take anti-rejection drugs twice a day. the tacrolimus levels are unaffected by cannabis.

cannabis is processed by the liver like anything else you ingest.

the liver is the metabolic storehouse and a giant bio-filter.

all toxins end up there, some are metabolized and some are stored as cumulative toxins until you reach a lethal dose, like mercury.

my prescription is to keep smoking and call me in a year, it will probably go away by then.

 

[Truthman]

as someone who also has had a liver transplant in the last few years i don't think his liver pain is food related.

glycogen is mostly stored not "burned" in the liver.

when a damaged liver is removed removed there is major traumatic damage done to the nerves connected to it. although they do a great job of re-attaching many of the larger ones they just cannot do them all.

after surgery there will be a lot of regrowth of damaged nerves but, again, not all come back to full function.

i ingest thc in huge quantities and have absolutely no liver pain whatsoever. most of the people i have met who also have had liver transplants report no liver pain.

i get continuous pain from the area around recent intestinal surgery, where a large number of nerves were also cut.

cannabis helps there.

when you get a transplant you are getting a very healthy liver so the liver itself is probably not the source of pain.

so my vote on this is for nerve pain. perhaps he's experiencing sensations brought on by cannabis similar to the sensations amputees report.

cannabis can make some folks hyper sensitive to pain.

long after amputation some people claim sensation in the missing limb.

as long as his labs look good he's ok.

perhaps a different method of ingestion would help.

does he get the same sensation with edibles?

vaping?

later

Glycogen in the liver is used up if your body stores are low, and when you smoke/ingest cannabis, it requires a lot of energy to process it which is why it may be his liver is using up his glycogen stores the more or potent cannabis he uses which can be why stated he feels more pain the higher he gets. He might not have enough glycogen stored in his muscles so the body goes to the liver to get energy to process the herb. Liver glycogen when converted to glucose, is used throughout the whole body and not one specific area, and being that we know THC effects the brain, it could be his liver glycogen is being used by his brain to process the thc. If it were just nerve pain, and no other reason, he wouldn't get it just when he puffs herb as his liver is always working.

It may not be that but there is no harm in seeing if that is the problem. If it's not then he can move on to see what else it may be, but just guessing things to which you can't find answers out to, is a waste of time.

 

[Stondestmanaliv]

Very interesting information here guys.. As to the Glycogen/Tauroursodeoxycholic acid, you all need to be checking you Keto-sticks. A positive result means you are burning calories which are not available without the liver releasing the chemical which causes the burning of stored energy.

http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/ketostix-reagent-strips-for-urinalysis/ID=prod19769-product


Regarding cannabis increasing the metabolism, well, that may be a form of psychogenic shock, a.k.a. paranoia and self-induced stress. I never read a study which said cannabis is a CNS stimulant or depressant.


as an EMT, i should ask Captain Obvious.. When many people inhale cannabis, they try to combat respiratory reflux by "holding-in-the-toke" and avoid coughing. Every time you cough, your diaphragm will contract and so will your abdominal muscles. Repeated coughing will certainly cause physical trauma to a liver transplant.

 

[Storm Shadow]

http://www.amazon.com/TUDCA-Strongest-Tauroursodeoxycholic-Acid-Powder/dp/B008D9MFPS

http://www.amazon.com/TUDCA-Tauroursodeoxycholic-Premium-Concentrated-Powder/dp/B008CM32EE



Aegis

http://www.strongsupplementshop.com...9298_a_7c281&gclid=CJjymdneiLMCFSemPAodxCkAZQ

http://www.antaeuslabs.com/aegis.html

Polyenylphosphatidylcholine + Tauroursodeoxycholic acid


There are many types of liver injury, but only one is normally associated with the use of oral androgens -- cholestasis. This condition is defined as a failure of normal bile to reach the duodenum, which may be due to a number of different pathological states between the hepatocyte and the ampulla of Vater. When one takes oral androgens (typically methylated at C17a) the physical structure of the hepatocyte is altered -- microfilaments and canaliculi become less contractile. Disruptions in the canalicular bile salt export pump may also occur. This leads to impaired bile flow and the retention of highly cytotoxic hydrophobic bile salts. At low concentrations, these retained bile salts cause apoptosis; at higher concentrations, necrosis and severe liver damage.

This is where AEGIS comes into the picture. It was designed with users of oral androgens in mind, and brings together the best anti-cholestatic ingredients available.

Tauroursodeoxycholic acid:
-Can prevent apoptosis during cholestasis. Toxic bile acids produce apoptosis Via fas- and TRAIL- death receptor mediated pathways. Both are, to some degree, dependent on the translocation of the 'bax' pro-apoptoic molecule from the cytosol of hepatocytes to the cell mitochondria. TUDCA prevents bax translocation, strongly stabilizes mitochondrial membranes, and activates the MAPK pro-survival pathway in hepatocytes. (1) These effects protect hepatocytes from bax-related apoptosis.
-Is a hydrophilic bile acid, and its presence markedly shifts the bile pool towards hydrophilicity, which, to some extent, detoxifies it. When used consistently, especially at pharmacological doses, TUDCA (along with UDCA) eventually becomes the predominant bile acid in the liver and in general circulation. (2)
-Directly stimulates bile secretion via modulating cellular signalling pathways in hepatocytes, such as ERK, src, PKC and others. These signalling pathways generally phosphorylate, or activate, the bile salt export pump (BSEP) and other processes involved in bile export/secretion. (For example, PKC-alpha-mediated secretion of HCO3-.) (3, 4, 5)

Polyenylphosphatidylcholine:
-Stabilizes cellular membranes and dilates bile canaliculi. This former effect has been shown to protect human cells from hydrophobic bile salt induced apoptosis (6), and the latter may serve to counteract the reduction in contractility seen in androgen-induced cholestasis. (7)
-Oral androgen administration may decrease hepatic Na+, K+-ATPase, Ca2+, Mg2+-ATPase and F-actin levels --- all of which may be restored, and even raised, by polyenylphosphatidylcholine administration. (8)
-Is secreted into bile by hepatocytes, where it serves as a major component of the micelles in which bile acids are emulsified. Increased levels of biliary phosphatidylcholine reduces the cytotoxicity of bile acids, whereas phosphatidylcholine-secretion impairment (as is often seen in ABCB4 disease) is characterized by extremely severe cholestatic liver disease. (9)

 

[Stondestmanaliv]

Glycogen in the liver is used up if your body stores are low, and when you smoke/ingest cannabis, it requires a lot of energy to process it which is why it may be his liver is using up his glycogen stores the more or potent cannabis he uses which can be why stated he feels more pain the higher he gets.

OK, i`m sorry but I completely disagree.. Cannabis DOES NOT require a lot of energy to process. caffeine, alcohol, cocaine, meth, nicotine, YES!.. cannabis no...

He would be burning more calories if he was in psychogenic shock. Some people get like this when they smoke cannabis.

 

[Stondestmanaliv]

Storm Shadow, I suggest he asks his medical doctor before consuming those after-market chemicals. You never know, much of that shit is not approved by the FDA and quality control. That crap from China might sit in a dungeon of a "medical lab", with all the cheapest shit to make it. Many people are going through stages when they have cancer. Some people refuse to admit to themselves how serious it is and they always want to be pro-active. Being pro-active to treat an illness is great, just don`t be gullible by thinking there is some "undiscovered miracle cure". ~esp if its made in china~

they have NO quality control and the only want your money.

 

[Truthman]

OK, i`m sorry but I completely disagree.. Cannabis DOES NOT require a lot of energy to process. caffeine, alcohol, cocaine, meth, nicotine, YES!.. cannabis no...

He would be burning more calories if he was in psychogenic shock. Some people get like this when they smoke cannabis.

Use your common sense, and look at what you wrote. How can all those things you mentioned require a lot of energy to process, yet cannabis doesn't when cannabis can be very potent, and cause you to wig out, and can be way more potent then nicotine and caffeine?.

I know for a fact that cannabis induced paranoia, or anxiety can be prevented if someone has a nice sized carbohydrate meal or take around 250mg of vitamin C with some orange juice, around 30 minutes- 1.5 hours before puffing, and it's because of the carbs helping to keep everything stable once cannabis is ingested. Vitamin C helps because it has a molecular structure like glucose, abundant receptors in the brain, and helps create more substances in the brain to keep everything stable. This is why in Amsterdam, it is widely known when someone starts wigging out from potent cannabis to give them some orange juice or something with a lot of sugar in it.

We can agree to disagree, but all I'm doing is helping someone find an answer to a problem, in a cheap way. If I'm wrong then they can see what else can help, but I have an idea that is this persons problem as it's a problem for most cannabis users, but for some reason either people don't acknowledge it or say it was something psychological. Only a few listened, and follow the directions I gave properly, and ALL of them have been cleared of paranoia/anxiety from cannabis. I experienced paranoia/anxiety myself bad at one time, and know it was due to my blood sugar. In this case he may be experiencing pain as a way of his body alerting him something is wrong, and my theory is, this is due to glycogen, and blood sugar being lowered by the cannabis.

 

[Truthman]

Regarding cannabis increasing the metabolism, well, that may be a form of psychogenic shock, a.k.a. paranoia and self-induced stress. I never read a study which said cannabis is a CNS stimulant or depressant.


as an EMT, i should ask Captain Obvious.. When many people inhale cannabis, they try to combat respiratory reflux by "holding-in-the-toke" and avoid coughing. Every time you cough, your diaphragm will contract and so will your abdominal muscles. Repeated coughing will certainly cause physical trauma to a liver transplant.

Cannabis, specifically THC, is both a stimulant and depressant depending on the amount taken. With less use it is more stimulating, and depressant with more use. You can see this for yourself by smoking a very small amount, and you will notice it's a nice upper type high, but the more you use the more you want to chill out. A lot of this comes from tolerance levels.

If his pain was caused by coughing why would the pain feel worse the higher he gets?.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/367234

The effects of smoked marijuana on metabolism and respiratory control.
Zwillich CW, Doekel R, Hammill S, Weil JV.
Abstract

Marijuana is a sedative, and most sedatives are respiratory depressants. However, the ventilatory effects of marijuana are unknown. In a placebo-controlled study of 8 subjects, smoking marijuana significantly increased ventilation and hypercapnic ventilatory response. Peak effects occurred 15 min after smoking, when ventilation increased from 7.4 +/- 0.39 (mean +/- SE) to 10.4 +/- 1.41 liter per min (P less than 0.01), whereas hypercapnic ventilatory response, measured as the slope of the relationship of ventilation to CO2, increased from 2.7 +/- 0.28 to 5.4 +/- 1.02 liter per min per mm Hg (P less than 0.05). Blood pH, PCO2, and ventilatory response to hypoxia were unchanged. Changes in ventilation usually parallel changes in metabolic rate. Smoked marijuana caused an increase in metabolic rate that also peaked after 15 min. Pretreatment with propranolol completely abolished the increase in hypercapnic ventilatory response, but did not affect the other changes. Thus, smoked marijuana had stimulatory effects on metabolic rate, ventilation, and the ventilatory response to CO2. The latter appears to be mediated by the beta sympathetic nervous system.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3834971

Alteration of glucose metabolism in liver by acute administration of cannabis.
Sanz P, Rodríguez-Vicente C, Repetto M.
Abstract

In previous research on the effects of cannabis on cellular functions the authors observed an increase in glucose metabolism in the postmitochondrial fraction of the liver of rats submitted to chronic administration of cannabis extracts. Continuing this research on rats submitted to acute cannabis intoxication a single dose of cannabis extract (600 mg/kg) in olive oil is administered to male adult rats and the animals are killed within a 36-hour period. The analyses show that energetic and detoxifying metabolism of glucose is increased, as indicated by the increase of F-1, 6-di P-aldolase and uridin-diphosphoglucose-dehydrogenase activities, which parallels the observed decrease of glycogen levels. Maximum effect appears between 8 and 16 hours after administration.

 

[Stondestmanaliv]

Cannabis, specifically THC, is both a stimulant and depressant depending on the amount taken.

No, it is not..

Do you even know what psychogenic shock is or do you just hate the correct answer? Hold your breath or forget to breathe, your pulse will increase. Geez, get a blood oximeter, I have 5 of them. If your blood oxygen level is 99%, you will not have an increase in you metabolism. Forgetting to breath, as the wonderful study you provided (by the republic liar, pigs, with it`s '8' clinical patient`s)-(what a joke lolol), will cause a form of compensated shock. Since there is nothing wrong with the person other than forgetting to breath, I would assume the form of compensated shock originates from the mind. Thus, psychogenic shock.

Oh btw, you are not helping if you are lying.

see, your study was done by the communist pigs and their bullshit 8 patients.. My study was done by almost 1200 people in california, protected under state law..

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/06/030630112652.htm


NOTHING says cannabis affects the CNS and metabolism. Your study says the lack of breathing caused the increase in pulse, which is what is suppose to happen when you forget to breath.

Please don`t come down on me when you are spreading misinformation.

 

[Stondestmanaliv]

Use your common sense


I know for a fact that cannabis induced paranoia

ya, that seems like a good idea.. even if i think my education is higher than yours, as well as my grade received being higher as well. sorry, I don`t want to fight but it took me a long time to harbor all that`s in my head. It`s stupid when someone shits on that by spreading lies.

 

[Truthman]

No, it is not..

Do you even know what psychogenic shock is or do you just hate the correct answer? Hold your breath or forget to breathe, your pulse will increase. Geez, get a blood oximeter, I have 5 of them. If your blood oxygen level is 99%, you will not have an increase in you metabolism. Forgetting to breath, as the wonderful study you provided (by the republic liar, pigs, with it`s '8' clinical patient`s)-(what a joke lolol), will cause a form of compensated shock. Since there is nothing wrong with the person other than forgetting to breath, I would assume the form of compensated shock originates from the mind. Thus, psychogenic shock.

Oh btw, you are not helping if you are lying.

see, your study was done by the communist pigs and their bullshit 8 patients.. My study was done by almost 1200 people in california, protected under state law..

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/06/030630112652.htm


NOTHING says cannabis affects the CNS and metabolism. Your study says the lack of breathing caused the increase in pulse, which is what is suppose to happen when you forget to breath.

Please don`t come down on me when you are spreading misinformation.

The article you posted is talking about cannabis causing toxicity in the CNS not if it effects it at all. Also, the study I posted showed even when the respiratory system was calmed down with propranolol, the metabolism was still effected. I knew you were going to disagree which is why I showed you another study using a different method(oral) and showing the metabolism still being effected, but specifically liver glycogen.