LED Lab 2009

[LeoRexTyrannus]

Whats the 730 nm about? Is that something to do with the Martian Method that was purported awhile ago?

As I've said before, I want to assemble a panel that will handle a 4x4 sq area, which will replace my CMH 400W which is damn fine, but a relentless energy wasting hog.

I spent some time roughing up some array designs to compensate for the length of the pcb on the 15W LEDEngin LED. I'm thinking since the choices of diodes at this power is limited, I'd go with red blue, and due to comments I've read instead of amber, I'll use white instead, I need suggestions on which white though, cool or warm, or neutral?

Because of the cost of each unit, I would be most thankful for suggestions of ratio from the Engin users. I'm thinking if I tinker fist, I'd go 2 R 1 B 1 W. If I can spend $670 I'd try to get 16 diodes in a square double spaced grid of 4x4, and I'd imagine 10 R 4 B 2 W for a total of about 240W. The ratio might be asinine, but do you think that could replace what I'm using comfortably? I know you just said its fine for you Weezard at that level but again I don't know your sq ft.

Thanks for your replies

Oldmac those SmartLamps look like they're doing well. You might consider getting some Titanium Dioxide based paint to up your reflectivity in there, I hear you can find it at Home Depot here in the US for around $7 a gallon, check the labels and find the highest one.

Oh and has anyone ever seen someone use just straight 15W white LED to try to grow? I don't think anyone has that I've seen, from a scientific stand point I'm just curious how they grow.

 

[Oldmac]

Oldmac those SmartLamps look like they're doing well. You might consider getting some Titanium Dioxide based paint to up your reflectivity in there, I hear you can find it at Home Depot here in the US for around $7 a gallon, check the labels and find the highest one.

Yeah LeoRexT, they seem to hold there own against the 1K HPS, with some advantages too. Currently I'm running those two TIs with a 4' T5 VHO set-up to make a 1kwatt hybred light . I think I have a pic of it in my light album (if I don't I'll put some there mow). Not great pic tho, did not quite get the whole frame in, and never even took a pic of the IceCap ballast that drives the T5s. Maybe tonight when I go over there to work I'll try to get better ones. Someone else was asking about that too.

Paint would probably melt the walls...they are made of 1" Dow blue stryrofoam boards. We had started framing rooms in this basement (from hell) to build my dream grow op. But money problems happen quickly, like having the entire contents of my greenhouse stolen this last fall and a heart attack the month after that. So we covered framing with dow board and built a quick and cheap op. The Dow board BTW sucks big time...it's not light tight. Not even two walls back to back are light tight....hermied the first batch going thru flowering. Plus most tape including duck tape won't stick to it if humidity goes over 40%, so keeping it air tight is a bitch. I hate that crap, but my partner insisted. He's young (40s) and dumb and more stubborn then a mule.

 

[igrowwitmatches]

Thanks for that link.. im going to try to keep my brain from implodeing woll reading

 

[Weezard]

Dow blue? Eww! Not acceptable.

Dow blue? Eww! Not acceptable.

Aloha O. M.

One word.
Reflectix.
HD has it here for $.50 per square foot.
Light tight, light weight, 97% reflection, no "hot spots".
You can work it with scissors n staples.
I won't use anything else.

Spoiled 'Zard

 

[Oldmac]

Aloha O. M.

One word.
Reflectix.
HD has it here for $.50 per square foot.
Light tight, light weight, 97% reflection, no "hot spots".
You can work it with scissors n staples.
I won't use anything else.

Spoiled 'Zard

Tell me about it 'Zard (if you don't mind my calling you that).....
that was one of my recommendations, next was rigid foam insulation with foil, both sides, also light tight, and duct tape sticks to it.

It's really tuff to teach the young ones, you know what I mean?

Plus in this "F"ing basement, the pain just doesn't stop. During the winter it was way too cold, then it started heating up, way too much with the nice weather, plus it leaks water into it, thru cracks at floor / wall joint, plus one wall. Humidity in there is steady 89%! I've got a 30 amp cable run to this place from over 250' away, and I'm trying to run 3- 20 amp circuts from the sub-panel! Don't try this at home kiddies. Thank god they are not all loaded to the max. And slowly I've been experitenting a little as we go along while trying to educate my partner. From LEDs don't work, ok he says maybe now they do. To being able to manipulate this plant to do what we want it to do. This nonsence about "simulating nature" or "that's not natural", damn it it's a weed, I can get to do things it would not normally do....things that work to MY advantage not the plants. It can't think, or reason, it's a plant to be USED by us.

Wooooo Nowwww big guy, let the meds kick in.

It's all starting to get to me Weezard.

When life becomes difficult, and trying,
and you don't know what to do,
you need to stop and take a moment,
and ask yourself this................
.........what would Willie do??????????

Vape a bit... ... aaaahhhh... ...that's better....

thanks for letting me vent

 

[Weezard]

You sure that tree's worth barking up?

You sure that tree's worth barking up?

Whats the 730 nm about? Is that something to do with the Martian Method that was purported awhile ago?

Not really.
The far red triggers phytochrome conversion.
Plenty of info online about it.
Fire up your google.

I'm thinking since the choices of diodes at this power is limited, I'd go with red blue, and due to comments I've read instead of amber, I'll use white instead, I need suggestions on which white though, cool or warm, or neutral?

I'd vote for warm white.
For no particular reason.

but do you think that could replace what I'm using comfortably? I know you just said its fine for you Weezard at that level but again I don't know your sq ft.

We're even then, I don't remember your sq. ft. either.
Frank covers 18" X 2' X 7'

Oh and has anyone ever seen someone use just straight 15W white LED to try to grow? I don't think anyone has that I've seen, from a scientific stand point I'm just curious how they grow.

Hmm, some "white" leds are 3 dies, one red, one blue and one green.
Some white leds are a deep blue/uv led with red and green phosphors.
The point being that the white light is produced by mixing 3 primary colors.
One of those colors is of very little use to cannabis.
Looks to me like a waste of watts then.
Just my take on it. I could be wrong.

WeeZard

 

[sativa_cyborg13]

WeeZard: i do believe that i cut that male down before i scrogged those 2 girls. the only girls out of the 10 seeds i bought. my ufo seems pretty solid, but we will see. i should have some kind of post put together for this new grow soon.
peace

 

[billyjojimbob11]

Hmm, some "white" leds are 3 dies, one red, one blue and one green.
Some white leds are a deep blue/uv led with red and green phosphors.
The point being that the white light is produced by mixing 3 primary colors.
One of those colors is of very little use to cannabis.
Looks to me like a waste of watts then.
Just my take on it. I could be wrong.

WeeZard

I thought the green was a waste as well, turns out, I think it too a small amount helps with biomass, and cartenoids, smell, taste, dankness. I recommend cree warm whites, that is if you are going to use whites instead of yellow amber. I love these leds because thay are bright as evah, a good bin P4 and higher are better than most flouros, and the amount of green to red ratio is not bad at all. Also, the amount of far red in these are much higher than neutral whites. Quite possibly the reason for the extra weight I am now getting. I think the plants must be using most of the energy from these as it compensates for all the defficiencies that using just red and blue alone do.

 

[igrowwitmatches]

That link hurt my head havent goten to how diffrent things are symbolized

edit: Quick question... what is important that im looking for in leds...im pretty sure im overcomplicating something thats simple.... is there a universal like good/bad for growing... with angles/intensity current that goes through... or whatever else... because the angles are linked with the intensity so am i just looking for a specific angle(with whatever color i need) then im just looking for a greater efficiency with the intensity?

 

[LeoRexTyrannus]

Thanks for the reply OldMac I didn't realize the walls were Styrofoam. A good quick work around would be to use baseboard or ply wood to cover the Styrofoam and then you could do the Titanium White, or you could go with what Weezard suggested, whichever is the most effective.

BillyJoe that is interesting you say that, as the trend is to use White instead of Amber now, and there has been some discussions here and there about green being important for signaling within the plant. I can't attribute your added biomass to it. However I have said before if you look at R:B vs what CMH, HPS or MH has, especially CMH and HPS, they possess a lot of energy in the Yellow-Orange-Red range.

The test I use to quote from in which HPS exceeded the biomass is available with a quick Google Search for High Times mini site on LED where they tested an unnamed companies Spanish built UFO.

BillyJoe I just looked at the SPD and you're right that is a lot of energy emitted by that Cree in the Yellow-Orange-Red ranges. If I remember correctly the majority of the Amber emitters being used are right at the 612nm mark.

That LED has a nice mark at 450 nm as well.

I asked this question yesterday on another forum... but has anyone done a grow test using all white LED? As from this single Cree SPD it seems White has plenty of power to flower if not veg.

 

[knna]

I asked this question yesterday on another forum... but has anyone done a grow test using all white LED? As from this single Cree SPD it seems White has plenty of power to flower if not veg.

It hasnt sense before. There is nothing new to discover about white LEDs spectrums. They are almost idenntical to many fluorescents that works with YAG phosphors.

One of the mains advantages of using LEDs is the possibility to give to plants the exact spectrum they prefers. We know plants likes red the most, and that blue is required for health grow and that improves results using just red.

The question is plants needs some other wavelenghts, and that adding them may result on a enhancement of the spectrum efficacy. But on any case, those other wavebands are going to be added on small amounts.

The question about LED growing is to find what spectrum gives more buds for each unit of light (mol of photons, for example). And then build a LED lamp that emits way more light per watt than other cheaper alternatives using that spectrum.

Of course you can grow with white LEDs, aswell as you can grow with fluorescents. But in that case, you are missing the possibility of getting more bud for the amount of watts burned.

Adding some (and only some) white LEDs ensure that wont be some wavebands lacks that may penalize production.

Efficients white LEDs uses a blue chip (some, a UV chip) covered with phosphors, that penalize its efficiency (total light emitted per watt burned). We should use only as little as plants requires. If we are able to identify the most productive spectrums and we can give them without using whites, it would be good for us. But until we do it, using whites is a safe and simple way to avoid problems.

 

[Oldmac]

Hello knna!

It is so nice to read one of your thoughtful and as usual thought provoking posts. I came over here to try and find a new home, and so far so good.
I have a hybred (LED/T5VHO) in use currently in a grow I'm partnered with. Some poor pics in an album.

Hope to build a T5 vho 4'- 4-bulb (85w) 340watts total and 5- 25strips of extruded aluminum heat sink 4' long to hold red LED, both 660 and 630 aprox 60watts per strip 300watts total. Total usage 640watts.

Hope to see you around and get to pick your brain. -oldmac

 

[knna]

Hello, Oldmac,

i think you are playing with something like this:

Its a friend's grow, pretty similar to that I want to do on my cab (very similar size). Its still on progress, Ill report results. This setup uses T8s, but its pretty similar, except for the fact its a vertical hidro, with plants at both sides of lights, in order to use all the light from the fluorescents and use all the cab volume. My friend is using 70 plants on a 90*60cm cab (120cm tall) (40*24"*4'), I plan to use a higher density vertical SOG, with 210 plants (on 5' tall).

This is the link to the full journal (spanish): http://www.cannabiscafe.net/foros/showthread.php?t=138857

 

[knna]

Its time to link some other setups from the spanish experimental group I tallked about earlier on the post.

I like very much these setups. The first one from Ecelkus:

And a micro one (flower room, 40*30*70 (T) cm) from Oxydo:

Look at the bottom of this Jack Herer

Enjoy! (there is a LED journals forum there, with many more setups )

 

[LeoRexTyrannus]

Knna, beautiful post, I'll have to check that out, I love Ecelkus's setup, if that could be adapted to LEDEngin at the higher wattages, and I believe it can. I also must note I loved your little tutorial awhile back, I didn't know it was so simple as aluminum bars, now that I think about it that's the perfect thing to mount a copper CPU heatsink on, with a muffin or radial heatsink fan from again CPU technology.

This goes out to the LEDEngin users, especially Weezard. I have an problem, my friend who graciously lent me his 400W ballast and wing reflector, may be in need of them back. This in mind I was thinking of getting a Sun System 10 and a wing reflector, probably a Hydrofarm. It'll end up costing about $150, now for that price I can get 4 15W LEDEngin, I'd get 2 x R 1 x B and 1 x W. Weezard given your practical experience do you think this could flower decently?

Ideally I'd like to replace the CMH, and am willing to go the LED route and then add on to this system given the above revelations about the aluminum bars and CPU heatsinks. I should be able to knock out a prototype that is hangable easily with a little wiring help from you fine gentlemen of course.

Thank you in advice for your advice. I really do appreciate all you guys have taught me just watching you wax poetic on this topic.

 

[LeoRexTyrannus]

It hasnt sense before. There is nothing new to discover about white LEDs spectrums. They are almost idenntical to many fluorescents that works with YAG phosphors.

One of the mains advantages of using LED is the possibility to give to plants the exact spectrum they prefers. We know plants likes red the most, and that blue is required for health grow and that improves results using just red.

The question is plants needs some other wavelengths, and that adding them may result on a enhancement of the spectrum efficacy. But on any case, those other wavebands are going to be added on small amounts.

The question about LED growing is to find what spectrum gives more buds for each unit of light (mol of photons, for example). And then build a LED lamp that emits way more light per watt than other cheaper alternatives using that spectrum.

Of course you can grow with white LED, as well as you can grow with fluorescents. But in that case, you are missing the possibility of getting more bud for the amount of watts burned.

Adding some (and only some) white LED ensure that wont be some wavebands lacks that may penalize production.

Efficients white LED uses a blue chip (some, a UV chip) covered with phosphors, that penalize its efficiency (total light emitted per watt burned). We should use only as little as plants requires. If we are able to identify the most productive spectrum and we can give them without using whites, it would be good for us. But until we do it, using whites is a safe and simple way to avoid problems.

Yes I understand all that sir, but I was reading about a new technology called nano dots which could convert all light at 100% efficiency into any NM. Someone else was talking about a new phosphor that had 97% efficiency in conversion. I believe in the long term this is the way it'll go, and then the question will be what LED is the most efficient at producing any NM of light period, since a 100% conversion medium is available.

For example you could take the highest producer and then use these technologies to convert light through the peaks.



I do totally see your points in comparing them directly to CFL and the new for new discoveries and advancements and I respect that fully.

 

[knna]

You are right, probably on the near future we have going to get near 100% quantum efficiency conversion with nanophosphors o nanodots converted light.

But although blue and near UV chips have currently the highest energy efficiencies, what we are behind is for amount of photons, that is what plants uses, and not for watts.

Its important to point out that a photon carries energy inversely proportional to its wavelenght.

So when you compares a watt emitted by a 450nm blue chip used on white and other converted light tones, with one emitted by a 640nm red chip, it results on the red holding 640/450=42% more photons, as for the moment all conversion ways are based on a longer wl photons for each shorter wl photon, one to one being 100% conversión efficiency.

So still having a 100% conversion efficiency, you need the efficiency of the blue chip is 42% higher than the red to get same amount of photons.

Current tech is not enough currently, but its approaching that point. When blue LEDs energy efficiency reach 50%, if red continues sttoped, its going to be profitable to use blue chips converted light. Of course, always the 100% conversion efficiency is achieved:

There is strong work on the field of nanodots, but there are some problems that are being difficult to solve in order to use them commercially.

 

[knna]

Knna, beautiful post, I'll have to check that out, I love Ecelkus's setup, if that could be adapted to LEDEngin at the higher wattages, and I believe it can. I also must note I loved your little tutorial awhile back, I didn't know it was so simple as aluminum bars, now that I think about it that's the perfect thing to mount a copper CPU heatsink on, with a muffin or radial heatsink fan from again CPU technology.

This goes out to the LEDEngin users, especially Weezard. I have an problem, my friend who graciously lent me his 400W ballast and wing reflector, may be in need of them back. This in mind I was thinking of getting a Sun System 10 and a wing reflector, probably a Hydrofarm. It'll end up costing about $150, now for that price I can get 4 15W LEDEngin, I'd get 2 x R 1 x B and 1 x W. Weezard given your practical experience do you think this could flower decently?

Ideally I'd like to replace the CMH, and am willing to go the LED route and then add on to this system given the above revelations about the aluminum bars and CPU heatsinks. I should be able to knock out a prototype that is hangable easily with a little wiring help from you fine gentlemen of course.

Thank you in advice for your advice. I really do appreciate all you guys have taught me just watching you wax poetic on this topic.

Yep, sure you can do a very similar setup than Ecelkus using very high power LEDs. Indeed, if he did the lamps that way was because he already has the center part of the modules built, using PC heat dissipators with Lumileds K2, that on that way may run hard, while the up to 1.5W red LEDs on the bars run softer. Finally he changed the K2 blues and whites for newer Crees, but the idea is to aircool very high wattage LEDs on the center octogonal modules while relaying mainly on passive cooling for lower power LEDs.

Kapton tape does very easy mount high power LEDs directly on heatsinks, achieving the low thermal resistances needed to run very high power LEDs.

 

[Weezard]

Go not softly into the night. Score some LEDS! Make some light!

Go not softly into the night. Score some LEDS! Make some light!

Knna, beautiful post, ...

Second on dat!

This goes out to the LEDEngin users, especially Weezard. I have an problem, my friend who graciously lent me his 400W ballast and wing reflector, may be in need of them back. This in mind I was thinking of getting a Sun System 10 and a wing reflector, probably a Hydrofarm. It'll end up costing about $150, now for that price

No forget the power supply and heatsink in your budget.

I can get 4 15W LEDEngin, I'd get 2 x R 1 x B and 1 x W. Weezard given your practical experience do you think this could flower decently?

Hate to say this, but I doubt it.
If you have a veg room it will veg jus' fine.
If you have one or two small (2') flowering plants and keep the light within 3", I'd say that you will grow flowers, albeit slowly.
That said, my "little" Ledengin lamp uses 4 R & 2 B. and has grown some very decent bud.
I'm impressed by DH's 6R 1B lamp. The girls entered puberty in 5 days!

Much as I avoid math, I did some crude number crunching before I settled on 65W as my minimum bloom light.

Gets a bit painful without my meds, so I'll let other folks determine the smallest lamp that will produce decent bud.

Keep in mind the power savings. And it makes good sense to spend 2 or 3 times as much up-front for leds .
The power savings will amortize in a short time in lower energy cost for the light and for cooling. (almost forgot bulb replacement every year or so)

In short? I won't say that it will not do the job.
If you can handle possible reduced yeild, and leave room in your scheme to add leds later, why not see what 2R 1W 1B will do?

Ideally I'd like to replace the CMH, and am willing to go the LED route and then add on to this system given the above revelations about the aluminum bars and CPU heatsinks. I should be able to knock out a prototype that is hangable easily with a little wiring help from you fine gentlemen of course.

Standing by.

Thank you in advice for your advice. I really do appreciate all you guys have taught me just watching you wax poetic on this topic.

Glad you enjoyed it, I've had a great time making light of things.

Regards,
Wee Zard

 

[knna]

One advantage of LED lights is they are scalable. You can start with an small lamp. If its not enough for your target, just add more LEDs for next grow :wink: