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LED Lab 2009

@Weezard

@Weezard

I will be in a position to build an array much sooner than previous thought possible, in your opinion how many <- this is an accidental post not a double. I apologize. Admin please at my request delete this.
 
LEDEngin 15W based array to replace 400W CMH

LEDEngin 15W based array to replace 400W CMH

I'm going to have a chance to build a panel sooner than expected or to buy a product, I've been looking at a few that seem to have potential from what I've learned here.

I'm leaning towards building one since you've all shown it to be childs play even for a novice.

Right now I use a Philips MasterColor RetroWhite 400W CMH bulb to flower a 4x4 area. For the people that can do the math to match the proper measure of the correct energy for plant growth between this and the 15W LEDEngin or can show me the formula my not good with math ass can use, I'd appreciate it.

Ok so then the question after that is, what ratio and what supplementry. I know I want Amber since the TI products have it, and they seem to have an edge, and now they've got Tri-Band UFO's coming out with Amber. I know I want White for when I look at it, I don't like how it changes all the colors on you without the white. I'd love to have a green for working during the night cycle.

And then Weezard I'd like your opinion separate to that of the technically people, just ball park it for me brother what do I need to grow some fat plants in that area.

Weezard, I had to come back here and edit this, I just read on the LEDEngin website they came out with a 660 nm Deep Red in 10W. This is great news, this is a replacement for the those old generation low power 660s. Woot.

Wait Mouser says they have 15W Deep Reds at 661 nm. Check it B

I wanted to update again, I found on the pipelane forums a user that got the TI SmartLamp and said in his experience of growing cannabis it did not rival a 600W HPS. I want to put that there as I've been saying its proven its self, and I felt it did in the Tomato tests.
 

Weezard

Hawaiian Inebriatti
Veteran
It's a jungle out there.

It's a jungle out there.

So how do you tell between one of the cheap UFO knock offs and something workable?

Aloha Rose,

Personally, I pay close attention to reputation rating of the seller on e-bay.
"You can't fool all the people all the time".
Sometimes the picture gives it away.
Saw one that was obviously 5mm leds poked through aluminized cardboard.
Saw another where the leds were mounted way off center.
Geeze! If that's the best one they could come up with for the photo what must the rest be like?

DreadedHermie suggests a UFO thread where we can post pictures, sources and measurements.
I'll be happy to open mine back up and take pictures if you'd like to start the thread.
I consider mine acceptable, for the price.
Thunder Lizard says Hidhut is bringing out a 3X UFO 270 Watts.
I'm gonna go look that up now.

Aloha,
Weezard
 
N

nekoloving

300th post

Aloha Rose,

Personally, I pay close attention to reputation rating of the seller on e-bay.
"You can't fool all the people all the time".
Sometimes the picture gives it away.
Saw one that was obviously 5mm leds poked through aluminized cardboard.
Saw another where the leds were mounted way off center.
Geeze! If that's the best one they could come up with for the photo what must the rest be like?

DreadedHermie suggests a UFO thread where we can post pictures, sources and measurements.
I'll be happy to open mine back up and take pictures if you'd like to start the thread.
I consider mine acceptable, for the price.
Thunder Lizard says Hidhut is bringing out a 3X UFO 270 Watts.
I'm gonna go look that up now.

Aloha,
Weezard

what might be nice is if htg and a few others treated this like overclocking a computer and picked a few of y'all oldsters to test their products - at least they might get a sign-off lol. I've been peeking at the wiring and the like; seems pretty rudimentary - eventually i'm going to have to build one - i just want to wait till led's get to a higher wattage value per bulb as i worry about light penetretion into the canopy or the cost of covering said canopy in high concentrated light - i'm interested in what a few 50w led's might do ;)
 

Weezard

Hawaiian Inebriatti
Veteran
White eyes waste wood. Build big fire, sit way back.

White eyes waste wood. Build big fire, sit way back.

"And then Weezard I'd like your opinion separate to that of the technically people, just ball park it for me brother what do I need to grow some fat plants in that area.

Weezard, I had to come back here and edit this, I just read on the LEDEngin website they came out with a 660 nm Deep Red in 10W. This is great news, this is a replacement for the those old generation low power 660s. Woot.

It's good news, but not new news.
To get the same photo-intensity as the 15W. leds I'd have to drive the 10W. emitters close to their MAX current and they cost almost the same to buy.

Wait Mouser says they have 15W Deep Reds at 661 nm. Check it B

That's what I'm using on the Beeg light in my album here.
I've read that, those were a trial run by Ledengine.
Mouser is almost out of them and someone would have to place a large order with Ledengin for them to "tool-up" for another run.
Looks like my last array will be made of "unobtanium" soon.:frown:

I wanted to update again, I found on the pipelane forums a user that got the TI SmartLamp and said in his experience of growing cannabis it did not rival a 600W HPS. I want to put that there as I've been saying its proven its self, and I felt it did in the Tomato tests.

I'll bet he did what alot of growers did.
Treated it like a 600W. HPS.

The advantage of leds is how close they can be without heat damage.
Most of the energy of a 600W HPS is lost to the inverse square law.
What does reach the plants is still off target from the photosythetic hot spots.
The proper use of a led array is 6" to 8" above the canopy.
The intensity at 2' is 1/16 of what it was at 6"

60 Watts of 660 nm. at a height of 3" rocks!
300 Watts at 6" should kick some serious ass.

That said, it's important to note that Tomatoes are much less demanding than Cannabis in their light needs.
So are peppers.
Greenpinelane's results are useful, but not definitive for Cannabis.
I'll know more about real world Cannabis needs in another 6 to 8 weeks of growing with the Beeg light.

Stay tuned,
Weezard
 
N

nekoloving

Energy cannot be 'lost' because of the inverse-square law, all that states is light spreads out. It's not like you can't expect to place the same light over a large area and achieve the same intensity as when it is used in a small space. That's crazy, as only a certain number of photons are emitted either way.

Ok imagine a 150W hps in a 1ft long x 1ft wide x 1ft tall box. According to your theory, if you make that box 1ft tall taller, the amount of light at the bottom should be 1/4 as powerful when compared to the 1ft tall box. Photons don't just dissapear though and if you had 'very' reflective walls there would not be a huge drop in light intensity as the only surface absorbing them would be the leaves.

As far as the light being 'off target", just because only 60% of the photons get absorbed the first time doesn't mean that the other 40% are gone for good. They come back eventually after reflecting off a few surfaces :joint:..

I just like the simplicity of one bulb and power supply and that foot space under my hps allows me to see and take care of my plants a LOT more without moving my light around. Not trying to be a dick, but that's my opinion at least

Most of the energy of a 600W HPS is lost to the inverse square law.
What does reach the plants is still off target from the photosythetic hot spots.
The proper use of a led array is 6" to 8" above the canopy.
The intensity at 2' is 1/16 of what it was at 6"



the longer the box the more energy lost to absorption due to reflection and absorption of photons in both the walls and the air.

[edit]
meh i cant help myself <flame on> if you must.
smokingshogun i think eventually i'm going to be known for long winded answers when a short sentence like the above would have done fine. However, i f#$%ing hate it when i dont know WHY because its much more likely i'll fall into whatever logical trap i fell into before. whether through incomplete understanding or lack of knowlege. let me see if i can explain a little.

your thinking in such exact absolutes they just dont work. this is the whole point of special relativity and quantum mechanics. newtonian physics where no energy is lost is useful for approximations, but very seldom gives the exact result correctly. There are a lot of little points where particals interact, and some spontainiously disappear [yes they do{very small amount for this though}], and the distance is not really the 1' the canopy is from the light.

See photons can be both wave and partical, and they can and DO bounce off atoms in gasses - air for instance ;)

each time they bounce it adds to the distance of the trip

every so often they lose a quantum state's amount of energy, and the wavelength lengthens [less energy in long rather than short - IR vs gamma]. This sir is a reduction in the amount of available useable energy for the plants. If we notice how tight a band it is, its a little bit amazing it works even as well as it does!

just to sort of put it in prespective for you:

http://aether.lbl.gov/cmb.html

penwil2.jpg
The most conclusive and carefully examined evidence for The Big Bang is the existence of an isotropic radiation bath that permeates the entirety of the universe known as the cosmic microwave background (CMB).
In 1964, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson (pictured) were radio astronomers working at Bell Laboratory. They were attempting to distinguish and measure sources of noise in the atmosphere using a well-calibrated horn antenna. They found that a persistent signal occurred regardless of direction in which the antenna was pointing.
Penzias and Wilson were lacking a satisfactory explanation for their observations and thought the signal was due to some undetermined systematic noise or equipment malfunction. It soon came to their attention through Robert Dicke and Jim Peebles of Princeton University that this background radiation had been predicted years earlier (1948) by George Gamow, Ralph Alpher, and Robert Herman as a relic of the evolution of the early universe. It was determined that the radiation was diffuse and emanating uniformly from all directions in the sky, and had a temperature of approximately 3 Kelvin (2.73K). They had discovered evidence of the Big Bang - the CMB. Penzias and Wilson received the Nobel Prize for their discovery in 1978.

More history in abbreviated form is in this CMB time line.
___________________________________________________________________________________

Cause and Effect
The universe was once very hot and dense, and the photons and baryons formed a plasma. As the universe expanded and cooled, the radiation (photons) decoupled from the matter. The radiation cooled and is now at 2.73 Kelvin. The fact that the spectrum of the radiation is almost exactly that of a black body implies that it could not have had its origin through any prosaic means. This led to the demise of the steady state theory.
cmb.gif
This diagram, centered on the observer (you), shows a representation of the universe where the angle represents the angle of view and the distance (radius) from the center. It measures both distance and time since light travels at a finite speed. The scale is non-linear and marked in terms of redshift z - the fractional amount by which emitted light is stretched by the expansion of the universe in the travel time from its emission to reaching the observer. The universe changes scale by a factor (1 + z) in this time, and the light wavelength changes by the same factor.
The temperature of the cosmic background radiation changes down by the same factor (1 + z). At early epochs (for z>1000), this temperature was high enough that most of the universe was ionized, and therefore opaque (optically thick). The surface z=1000 is sometimes called the cosmic photosphere, in comparison with the photosphere (apparent surface) of the Sun. It is the surface from which the cosmic background photons last scattered before coming to us. This “wall of light“ is called the surface of last scattering since it was the last time most of the CMB photons directly scattered off of matter. When we make maps of the temperature of the CMB, we are mapping this surface of last scattering.
The light coming from this cosmic photosphere can be used to make an image of the early universe. One can then learn about the universe when it was a 1000 times smaller than the present. In 1967, Sachs and Wolfe determined that any observed temperature disparities were directly related to changes in the density variations.
Having very little data, cosmologists referred to the Cosmological Principle. This states that on the average the universe looks the same from any point. It is motivated by the Copernican argument that the Earth is not in a central, preferred position. If the universe is locally isotropic, as viewed from any point, it is also uniform. So the cosmological principle states that the universe is approximately isotropic and homogeneous, as viewed by any observer at local rest. (See U2 Anisotropy Experiment archives for the effect of observer motion). The CMB should then appear to be approximately isotropic.
Further investigations, including those by the COBE satellite (Smoot, et al) confirmed the virtual isotropy of the CMB to better than one part in ten thousand.

monopole_sml.gif

A map of the sky at microwave frequencies, showing that the CMB is almost completely the same in all directions.

Given this qualification (checked in limited regions by small angular scale observations) any attempt to interpret the origin of the CMB as due to present astrophysical phenomena (stars, radio galaxies, etc.) is discredited. Therefore, the only satisfactory explanation for the existence of the CMB lies in the physics of the early universe.
While the CMB is predicted to be very smooth, the lack of features cannot be perfect. At some level one expects to see irregularities, or anisotropies, in the temperature of the radiation. These temperature fluctuations are the imprints of processes and features of the early universe. The COBE DMR instrument first detected these imprints and made them public in 1992.
Usually the features of the Universe and the CMB are interpreted in the context of a cosmological model - The Big Bang - that is derived from general cosmological principles and observations. Some of the features of the Big Bang model are discussed in the Science Goals subsection on the Origin of Large Scale Structure.
___________________________________________________________________________________

What do the different colors on the map of the CMB represent?
wmap2.jpg


Although the temperature of the CMB is almost completely uniform at 2.7 K, there are very tiny variations, or anisotropies, in the temperature on the order of 10-5 K. The anisotropies appear on the map as cooler blue and warmer red patches.
These anisotropies, or "ripples" in the temperature map, correspond to areas of various density fluctuation in the early Universe. Eventually, gravity would draw these fluctuations into even denser ones. After billions of years, these minute ripples in the early universe evolved, through gravitational attraction, into the planets, stars, galaxies, and clusters of galaxies that we see today.

and yes i do realize that part of the problem is that the universe is getting larger.... but that's just less lumens per sqft ;)
 

Weezard

Hawaiian Inebriatti
Veteran
Oh joy! A physics rant!

Oh joy! A physics rant!

Wow, Nekoloving!

I'm impressed.
What a mad, but enjoyable riff.

I was just gonna leave a very short answer for Shogun.

Something like;

"You, sir, are incorrect,

Let me suggest a 2 step plan.
1. Get some books on physics.
2. Read them."

Figure if I'm gonna play :wallbash:
I might as well conserve my energy in the process.:biglaugh:

I'll just pull up a:lurk: and watch you lot.:joint:

Play nice.
Weezard
 
N

nekoloving

Wow, Nekoloving!

I'm impressed.
What a mad, but enjoyable riff.

I was just gonna leave a very short answer for Shogun.

Something like;

"You, sir, are incorrect,

Let me suggest a 2 step plan.
1. Get some books on physics.
2. Read them."

Figure if I'm gonna play :wallbash:
I might as well conserve my energy in the process.:biglaugh:

I'll just pull up a:lurk: and watch you lot.:joint:

Play nice.
Weezard
heh - i just like understanding why dammit! :)

sorry if i drone on a bit - and for the record - any innocent bystanders should consider themselves in tact as i only mean to educate to prevent rather than to um, well, be a dick - plz dont take wrong wai! :dueling:
 

Weezard

Hawaiian Inebriatti
Veteran
Dang!

Dang!

I MUST spread some reputation around before... blah blah blah.

That, in a nutshell, is my prime directive.

Why?

Hard enough to figure out what actually IS!
Little easier when ya know why it is, yah?
Carry on NL. You're doing a fine job.

Weeze
 

giblets

Member
Tried to pollenate a flower like dat, once...got slapped!

Tried to pollenate a flower like dat, once...got slapped!

Reading through this thread, and checkin' in with WeeZard :friends:.

giblets here, DH there. Mahalo for the eye candy, NL. Carry on!
 
6-8 isn't a problem for me Weezard, honestly no rush and I'm excited to see your results with the deep reds.

Personally I've got my THC Bomb in 12/12 right now, started at the beginning of the month to sex. After this months over I'll know sex, going to cull the males and the weak then I'll throw the survivors back into 18/6 for a month and then I'll be cloning from those and throwing them in a 12/12 flower for two months. So I won't be really be a bug in your ear for at least three months.

As for the knockoff UFO's, I believe the original from HIDHUT has a label on it which says LED UFO with a UFO shaped line around it
 

Weezard

Hawaiian Inebriatti
Veteran
Howzit, G.!?

Howzit, G.!?

Reading through this thread, and checkin' in with WeeZard :friends:.

giblets here, DH there. Mahalo for the eye candy, NL. Carry on!

Glad ya made it.
So far, this server is rock-solid.
No gotta hold yer breath 'fore ya hit send.

Here's some good news on the new light.
Can't say whether it's the raw power, or the 730 nm nightcap.
but the last 2 flips showed flower in 5 days flat.
Acme.jpg
The flowers are multiplying 'bout 25% faster as well..
As soon as the stretch began, (day one! overnight).
I turned the reds down to 70% and she stopped stretching and put her push into more pubic hair.
Frank at work.jpg
Gettin' bushier, faster.

I'm guessing that once you give them enough blue for phototropism and night length sensing, you are free to dick with the red for effect.
That's my theory, and I'm stickin' to it. Unless it proves to be nonsense.:wink:
bong fodder.jpg

Gonna turn the red back up tomorrow just to see if the stretch can be re-booted.
Pollinated one branch, might get some seed.
Leena.jpg

Ain't she sweet?
Wee Zard
 

knna

Member
Nice pics, Weezard!

Im glad to see 730nm shortening too the stretching period and time to show flower's hairs.

This guy used a 470, 590, 630 and 660nm ligh panel (120W) and plants lasted just one week to show hairs, same that same plants (clones) under an 400W HPS on another grow chamber.

Stretching, IMO, is a biological reaction to the flowering induction. Thus its not caused by the light quality, but spectrum is just another environmental factor that affects it (with temperature and night/day differential temperature, aswell as some elements avalaibility).

Theory says far red promote stretching but reduces its duration, while pure red promotes shorter internodes (not so much as blue, but it works in the same trend) but increases the time for plants showing flowers.

Its curious you have got a reduced stretching when adding far red, its very interesting.
 

Weezard

Hawaiian Inebriatti
Veteran
I tried da blues, da reds an' da pinks...

I tried da blues, da reds an' da pinks...

Nice pics, Weezard!

Im glad to see 730nm shortening too the stretching period and time to show flower's hairs.

This guy used a 470, 590, 630 and 660nm ligh panel (120W) and plants lasted just one week to show hairs, same that same plants (clones) under an 400W HPS on another grow chamber.

Stretching, IMO, is a biological reaction to the flowering induction. Thus its not caused by the light quality, but spectrum is just another environmental factor that affects it (with temperature and night/day differential temperature, aswell as some elements avalaibility).

Theory says far red promote stretching but reduces its duration, while pure red promotes shorter internodes (not so much as blue, but it works in the same trend) but increases the time for plants showing flowers.

Its curious you have got a reduced stretching when adding far red, its very interesting.

Seems to be some confusion here, my friend.

The far red was added weeks ago.
This stretch control experiment is the whole reason for the new variable control light.
Reducing the 660nm. red while keeping the 460 nm. blue constant effectively increases the B:R .
Tomorrow morning, I'll turn the 660nm back up to 100% to bring the relative, (not absolute), B:R to 1:5 just to see if she starts stretchin' again.
Just can not resist pokin' bushes.:smile:

Note that the fr source is in a reflector made by "Acme"
I figure, if it's good enough for Wile E Coyote, what could possible go wrong?:D

Regards,
Wee Zard
 

bf74

Member
good job weeze, girls are lookin sweet.Just figured I'd drop in to show my new set-up.2-tri band ufo's- 1-50w red panel-4 12w cree white fixtures, 3-5w 660nm red bulbs, 2-24w T-5 tubes.So far, better than the last time.It looks like everyone is gettin it as well.Good work all.peace
 
Weezard that's amazing, sexing within a week has serious implications for cloning. BF looks great plants seem to love it, your plants look great too Weezard.

Where'd you get the heatsink for Frank Weezard?
 

Weezard

Hawaiian Inebriatti
Veteran
Weezard that's amazing, sexing within a week has serious implications for cloning. BF looks great plants seem to love it, your plants look great too Weezard.

Where'd you get the heatsink for Frank Weezard?

Well, that one was surplus. Came from a huge plating supply, I think.
But DH has a source on e-bay that will soon be selling 12' wide sinks cut to any length you want.
Just type "large heat sinks into the seach engine and they pop right up.

Enjoy
Weezard
 
Thanks Weezard, That thing has nice surface area.

Has anyone considered just using a CPU heatsink with the LEDEngin 15W? I don't know how big the diodes are but I'd guesstimate you could fit around a minimum of 5-9 on one, unless I have the scale horribly wrong, and those are explicitly designed for extremely hot running electronics.
 

Weezard

Hawaiian Inebriatti
Veteran
Considered? Yes. Even applied, sort of.

Considered? Yes. Even applied, sort of.

Thanks Weezard, That thing has nice surface area.

Has anyone considered just using a CPU heatsink with the LEDEngin 15W? I don't know how big the diodes are but I'd guesstimate you could fit around a minimum of 5-9 on one, unless I have the scale horribly wrong, and those are explicitly designed for extremely hot running electronics.

I've put 3. 5 Watt leds on a cpu cooler for side lighting.
15W blue.jpg

Blue Phil.jpg
They work well with the lenses and reflectors

Evolution.jpg

Runs quite cool.

Have considered 15W emitters on cpu coolers, and decided against it.
The flying leads make it a hassle, and when finished I'd rather have my high power emitters spread out for their safety and for better area coverage.
That's my rationalization anyway and I'm stickin' to it.

Aloha,
Da Weeze

:listen2: (Psst, the truth is, he's just too damn lazy to do the extra work involved)
 

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