Is civilization about to fall?

[nomaad]

From what I've seen you can never change someones views by arguing with them though. We seem to wake up on our own time.

that's for damn sure. but that doesn't mean that others don't benefit from the argument... I am not waiting for this guy to agree with me, I'm waiting for him to say something that actually could be considered an argument for his opinion. I'm even open to what might be right about it... but the guy is 99% wind.

disco: if you agree with me, we'll be accused of being ball gargling leftists involved in a circle jerk. lol. i disagree with you about the classroom. I think that our universities are a cesspool of mainstream thought and corporate/pentagon control of research. Not to mention the disgusting social side of it... I am not saying that there is nothing to be learned, but blanket support of the US academy is not my thing.

I'm into guerrilla learning.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

nomad, I don't endorse all aspects of academia as many of my professors were snobs. I rarely experienced anything other than independent thinking professors lecturing independent thinking students. I'd give my left nut to be back in school for the social aspect though. I wasn't a frat rat but 9 girls for every guy and only 4 years... Need I say more? I just think a broad education has more worth than the personal achievement alone, it helps you experience folks around you and prepare how you'll interact and solve problems together in the future.

College professors are only part of education. There may be a few that try to teach you what they think but the good ones teach you how to think for yourself. The environment helps you feel that together we can pursue our common interests and work out some of our differences. Or at least learn how to get along better. It's like an incubator for the real world. The best part seemed to be that for all the differences of thought, we were young and open minded enough to think we could all pull it together somehow and make a better society. Except for the nerdy fraternities/sororities that aspired to become investment bankers, lol. Never could figure them out.

 

[bkind]

that's for damn sure. but that doesn't mean that others don't benefit from the argument... I am not waiting for this guy to agree with me, I'm waiting for him to say something that actually could be considered an argument for his opinion. I'm even open to what might be right about it... but the guy is 99% wind.

Definitely, whoever has the eye to see will. And everyone should feel free to share their opinion, just don't expect the dogs not to bark back I guess.

Not all true leftists are cartoon characters like the ones you mention above. Those are icons.

The majority of true leftists are real people who fight day to day for justice. Justice for workers and justice for the environment and justice for the victims of imperialism, racism, capitalism. Being a real leftist is about activism and hard work. Not that the people you mention above are not great people who are icons for a reason... I just don't want to let it stand that a leftist needs to hold themselves up to such icons. I am not "pure" but I am a leftist. In fact, if your are both a real person and a leftist you'd have to overcome some of your "impure" instincts, like buying those apples that were shipped from argentina instead of waiting for a more local apple season... Its not easy being green.

Gautama Buddha, Gandhi, and Bob Marley were all "real people who fight day to day for justice. Justice for workers and justice for the environment and justice for the victims of imperialism, racism, capitalism."

Some of the fundamentals of the teachings of Gautama Buddha are:

* The Four Noble Truths: that suffering is an inherent part of existence; that the origin of suffering is ignorance and the main symptoms of that ignorance are attachment and craving; that attachment and craving can be ceased; and that following the Noble Eightfold Path will lead to the cessation of attachment and craving and therefore suffering.
* The Noble Eightfold Path: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.
* Dependent origination: that any phenomenon 'exists' only because of the ‘existence’ of other phenomena in a complex web of cause and effect covering time past, present and future. Because all things are thus conditioned and transient (anicca), they have no real independent identity (anatta).
* Rejection of the infallibility of accepted scripture: Teachings should not be accepted unless they are borne out by our experience and are praised by the wise.
* Anicca (Sanskrit: anitya): That all things are impermanent.
* Dukkha (Sanskrit: duḥkha): That all beings suffer from all situations due to unclear mind.
* Anatta (Sanskrit: anātman): That the perception of a constant "self" is an illusion.

This knowledge has existed for 2500+ years and I'm sure has helped thousands of people. With learning the tiny amount of Buddhist teachings I have I would like to point out that even considering the ideas "left and right winged people" is delusional thinking and behavior. That all perception of separation is an illusion. Also that looking at people as icons is reinforcing our insanity.

Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi was the pre-eminent political and spiritual leader of India during the Indian Independence Movement. He was the pioneer of satyagraha—resistance to tyranny through mass civil disobedience, firmly founded upon ahimsa or total nonviolence—which led India to independence and inspired movements for civil rights and freedom across the world. Gandhi expanded his non-violence platform to include the swadeshi policy— the boycott of foreign-made goods, especially British goods. Linked to this was his advocacy that khadi (homespun cloth) be worn by all Indians instead of British-made textiles. Gandhi exhorted Indian men and women, rich or poor, to spend time each day spinning khadi in support of the independence movement. His résumé might top any other human rights activist to ever exist.

Bob Marley...I don't even need to say anything about this guy.

I respect that you said, we shouldn't hold ourselves to be like them. We can all learn from their examples though.

 

[nomaad]

nomad, I don't endorse all aspects of academia as many of my professors were snobs. I rarely experienced anything other than independent thinking professors lecturing independent thinking students. I'd give my left nut to be back in school for the social aspect though. I wasn't a frat rat but 9 girls for every guy and only 4 years... Need I say more? I just think a broad education has more worth than the personal achievement alone, it helps you experience folks around you and prepare how you'll interact and solve problems together in the future.

College professors are only part of education. There may be a few that try to teach you what they think but the good ones teach you how to think for yourself. The environment helps you feel that together we can pursue our common interests and work out some of our differences. Or at least learn how to get along better. It's like an incubator for the real world. The best part seemed to be that for all the differences of thought, we were young and open minded enough to think we could all pull it together somehow and make a better society. Except for the nerdy fraternities/sororities that aspired to become investment bankers, lol. Never could figure them out.

yet people with college degrees, who are taught to think for themselves, are the biggest consumers and wasters in our society. less of them can change a tire than a random sample of the population, and the vast majority don't know how to snake a toilet. they know how to think for themselves, but are actually (as consumers) the biggest supporters of the "don't think for yourselves, let us do all the thinking for you" culture. Your job is too stressful and important for you to have to worry about cooking. Eat lots of processed food or hire somebody from the lower classes to come do it for you.

I'm just saying... people come out of college as more informed consumers and not much more. Granted, they are distinct from the blue collar consumer. They shop Target rather than Walmart. They pay more and more often. And according to your theory, they have been taught to think for themselves.

Even those that go on to advanced degrees. Porches instead of Lexuses... Manhattan instead of Queens. Still all consumers who have been taught to think for themselves.

You're right about the skillset. I am not trying to smack talk your experience at school... but while they are learning to think for themselves about their subject matter, they are also somehow taught to buy into our society's myths. You can say that they (a majority that you may not consider yourself a part of) are not indoctrinated, but I disagree.

I am watching my kids start public school. Their teacher is a former geologist. She's an awesome teacher and my kid is learning SO much and every day she comes home and I'm just having a ball building on what she has learned in school that day... but she came home with some lies about Columbus on Columbus day, and I am sure Thanksgiving will be sold to her as some Puritan/Injun lovefest...

The academy is the same as public kindergarten (for the most part, I have no idea where u went to school... i am sure humboldt state is more irie than some other places. The difference is that the indoctrination is more subtle and nuanced. Like business students only reading the intro to the Wealth of Nations and never getting to the part about how capitalism will make us stupider than humans have ever been.

When a chemist studies in a lab funded by Merck, they are about 10 times more likely to believe that Merck is a good company. When they are offered a job by the headhunters for Merck (aka their professors) after graduation, they have been bought and sold... company men and women for life.

I'm not saying don't go to college... If you want to be a doctor, you're going to have to. I'm just saying that most doctors believe in pharmeceuticals for a reason... they have been educated by the largesse of that industry.

Getting a liberal arts degree so you can start your first real job at three times the salary of the guy who didn't go to school (for whatever reason) is a smart thing to do in this world. but it doesn't justify the paradigm as moral or right. it just is and I understand that it would be stupid not to avail yourself of the opportunity if you have it. Just saying that it doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot to me.

I get your opinion... and even though I think its slightly idealized (maybe cuz you were getting laid all the time at the time) i do understand where you are coming from.

 

[nomaad]

I respect that you said, we shouldn't hold ourselves to be like them. We can all learn from their examples though.

i agree. i just avoid charismatic icons in general.

 

[BurmeseDragon]

Well it seems they just want Anarchy to run everything and not all the time or all places it's just congested living with no real practical values! Not that I find arresting everyone by the same book to be a good thing!

Society doesn't have a branch to sit on! They don't really want to here my opinions so why exist?

 

[Lightning Bug]

Nomaad, I just wanted to say that you are my hero. FOR REAL.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

nomad, thanks for broadening the context of what I may have seemed to breeze over but I was speaking from a limited political perspective when it was suggested that liberals don't think for themselves. My liberal education did not teach me to be liberal. It taught me to learn fact from fiction and form my OWN opinion on things that invite one.

I also know home schooled kids that smoked my achievements. I just think an isolated environment and limited instructors might limit social related learning.

 

[xxd]

OK, smart ass...shoiw me an example of Fox News being unfair. Also show me an example of them being unbalanced. See, you are speaking right out your ass.
You have no fucking idea what Fox news presents, other than the perception the left takes on.
I got your idiot right here in my drawers. See, you don't have to explain what I am or what I look like, I know what I am. It is you that has no clue as to how ignorant you look when you take on the party line.

You have absolutely NO evidence to back up your assertions. Or maybe prove me wrong...but for you to think you can simply call idiot and be done with the argument...well, that is the way phony leftists play.

for example:Rachel Maddow never got invited to the white house from Bush. Hannity and his crew got invited all the time.
Bush never gave an interview to the New York Post in 8 years.
If Hannity´´s tongue be long enough it be sticking up Bush ass.

 

[dmt]

all you guys sound very intelligent, we will all know the truth sooner or later. if this is civilization though, i cant wait for it to fall and full human potential be resurected. there are major differences between education and indoctrination. ask yourself, "how much of my thoughts, acts and feelings are based on morals and dogma, and true human intuition/feelings"? search in that direction and soon the truth will be reached. to understand the true nature of the universe, we must fundamentaly change our ideas of what we are, or live within the bounds delimited by our own ignorance. we are what we believe we are, whether self realised naturally or propagated unaturally, d

ps if you are on the net, you should know what google and or you tube is. explore the info for yourself anfd draw your own conclusions about "vitamin" b17. ive noticed a peculiar degree of seperation between truth and deciet: profit. there is always 2 sides to every medical ailment. one thats easy that people can empower themselves with, or , the tv which will sell you anything youl buy. no disrespect to ic mag, but i can find anything on google, still having issues with finding stuff here

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Okay, I waited 290 posts to finally reveal that Fox noise is the end of civilization and

fair n balanced
tea baggers
birthers
deathers
Glen Beck
Bill O'Whitey

Things will get better after that.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

One Mayfield does not a breach of constitutional rights make.

:jawdrop:

And to think you told me to read the Constitution.

I have read the Patriot Act. I listed examples.

You reply with whiny fingerpointing.

I tire of this redundant argument of why you know everything and need to hand out lessons on how to be informed... I have one more thing to say...

If you're not going to back up anything you say and refuse to look at anyone else's evidence you should denounce it immediately upon hearing it, drop an insult or four and then make a hugely erroneous blanket statement. That'll reel em in.

 

[AndreNicky]

If you consider a challenge to actually back up your claims (and the claims on the websites you link) with science that I can respect (doesn't take much) to be ridicule, so be it.

Just to show you that I am interested only in seeking knowledge and understanding, I have been searching for studies that support your claims...

Never said once you ridiculed me, its funny how you focus on that tho? I said i could care less if I'm ridiculed and again i do care less.

Keep searching for that magical statistical study, it will never exist my friend. Maybe you don't realize this but the government doesn't want you to be healthy, its run by a legion of devil worshippers that only benefit from your loss.

For the sake of this argument, we'll allow ANY kind of evidence

I gave you what you asked for but its clearly not enough, guess I'm just a big liar trolling cancer patients for my shits and giggles

 

[nomaad]

Nah... didn't say that either. And saying that "the government controls all information and therefore you will never find proof of my claims"... is just silly. I am 100% for curing cancer with the sweat from a squirrel's ass, but I have not seen (and I am seriously looking) evidence of what you are saying...

I'm sorry, but i don't buy in the giant conspiracy in which the government can suppress anything it likes. If I were to invest $10K into such a study (statistical analysis could be done for less probably) and publish it on the internet, how would the government cover it up? Would CIA ninjas show up at my house and erase every trace of me and my research?

Granted, the American Cancer Society is NOT focusing their energy oin researching holistic means by which to cure cancer... but plenty of people ARE. I have read their websites (you linked them and looked up dozens more) and with all the people and energy involved, you would think that ONE of them would actually put the work needed into a proper study so that skeptics (read: people who require scientific proof before they change their cancer regimen from pharms to fruit) could share their enthusiasm for this new cure.

You didn't give me what I asked for, you linked me to what I already knew existed... a bunch of theories (maybe even some vaild ones) but none of the proof required to show the world that any of these given theories is the one that will cure cancer.

Don't get all butt-hurt because you're baing asked to back up your opinion... you act as if you are being attacked... nobody ever called you a troll...

if you had come and announced that you had read a bunch of information on the internet that suggests that a diet of raw fruits and veggies would cure cancer and listed 30 websites where the cancer patient could look at this info and decide for themselves, it probably would have led to less of an indictment of your opinions... but coming in and talking like you're the Jonas Salk of wheatgrass juice? Telling a sick person that they should drop their meds because YOU know the TRUE cure for cancer? Sorry, bub, but I'm going to ask you to back that shit up with more than what you have so far.

The best part about being told we're wrong or just off-base is that we are given the opportunity to strengthen our argument (or change it completely in light of new evidence) for the next time we are called upon to defend it.

 

[nomaad]

nomad, thanks for broadening the context of what I may have seemed to breeze over but I was speaking from a limited political perspective when it was suggested that liberals don't think for themselves. My liberal education did not teach me to be liberal. It taught me to learn fact from fiction and form my OWN opinion on things that invite one.

I also know home schooled kids that smoked my achievements. I just think an isolated environment and limited instructors might limit social related learning.

I know, bro. I am just using your opinion as a jumping-off point for my own. i know plenty of college educated, open minded and open hearted people who are putting extremely positive things into the world... but the way I see it, they managed to dodge the indoctrination bullet and truly learn to think for themselves... sometimes that's a function of their family upbringing or experience, but its not the norm as I see it. From my limited communication with you, you seem to at least be able disagree with an open mind and formulate your opinions newly when new information comes to light. It seems you're able to have productive communication whether or not you agree with the other person. (assuming that person isn't a twat)

I considered homeschooling my kids, and its still a possibility for the future, but we felt that the experience of being in the genpop is a valuable one. In my opinion, school is more about the social component and learning the beasics... the real stuff is on me and my wife to teach. If I ever did get into homeschooling I would try to form a collective of families to school with so as to not lose the social aspect. Some homeschool paradigms are just scary. Ever seen the documentary, Jesus Camp?

 

[cork144]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f0sDWcZ4IY&NR=1

 

[nomaad]

here's something that I think will help people out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zORv8wwiadQ&feature=related

forget about the subject matter... this is how reasonable and informed decisions are made.

 

[dmt]

okay folks, we are all growers or people with grow understanding. if co2 is increasing so dramaticaly, why arent the trees in my yard growing bigger and faster then ever?

hoax:hemp is satan, co2 induced global warming, 911, 7/7, and so on. these things are happening or happened, but not the way we are told about it, think for yourselves

real: fema camps, toxic inoculations, money and interest from nothing, a microchipped depopulized planet, global facsist state, global spiritual awakening, galactic alignment, nwo

 

[cork144]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG3xH3LJbBg

 

[nomaad]

Sorry... couldn't watch the guy for more than 60 seconds. I tried.