I no longer believe Broad Mites cause DUDDING

[Grow Tech]

If it's sliver that's doing the trick maybe just a spray of silver nitrate. The typical STS blend is much heavier to the sodium Thiosulphate vs silver nitrate

 

[iTarzan]

That crossed my mind too GT. I already had STS mixed up. Plus I was going to have to research spraying plants with silver nitrate and my brain is overstuffed now reading botany and horticultural research papers. Plus the medical articles about silver usage. LOL! I already knew what to expect spraying plants with STS.

I am going to try colloidal silver too. It would be cheaper and easier to get because I make it. I was prepared to go to it next even if STS didn't work because in my reading there were some researchers who thought colloidal silver worked better in some situations.

I went right too STS because I think it reverses better than colloidal even though I have good luck with colloidal too. Which made me jump to the idea it would be better at this too. That combined with everything else I mentioned.

 

[frostqueen]

I'd like to toss out an idea that I haven't seen discussed much here. That dudding is actually not a 'disease' itself, but simply a physiological response in a plant to other environmental stresses or unknown triggers. An epigenetic response (when a gene is switched off and the plant changes its growth habits in response to that). It might explain why undudding a plant is so difficult. It also seems plausible considering that cannabis is an annual, meant to die off each season.

Those initial stresses that trigger this genetic response might be broad mites, being root bound, being deficient in certain nutrients or having low light conditions, etcetera. Or even a combination of those factors. The result of the gene(s) being switched off is the subsequent lack of resin and terpenoid production we are seeing in duds, among other key symptoms like lack of apical dominance, drastically smaller fan leaves, fleshy brittle stems, etcetera.

This is obviously new territory, but I suspect that in the next couple of years we will begin to identify which genes regulate the above functions, and we may eventually find that they are all controlled to some extent by one gene or related set of genes, and that dudding is actually a genetic switch being thrown. Some plants may be more genetically prone to this switching (WiFi, GG#4), while others might resist it altogether.

How does that help us now? It doesn't. But I think we need to move past the idea that one single thing like broads is the 'cause' of duds and consider that, since obviously a few different things can trigger dudding, it may be more of a systemic reaction to problems rather than a disease itself.

As far as undudding duds, it can be done. I have undudded several different strains now by doing several repeated clone cycles and boosting vigor via use of things like Superthrive, chitosan, aspirin and sterile aerocloning techniques. I have a friend who has also done this. It isn't easy, but it is definitely possible. We've flowered them and confirmed it. The big question is: are we 'switching the gene back on', or are we just killing a disease?

 

[Weird]

TBH I don't think the triggers and unknown, rather their is an overlap of the same symptoms from similar diseases including a few very common fungal infections, some of which are systemic and cannot be removed from the plant, some of which can be removed and the plant recovered.

IMHO these infections are becoming far more prevalent due to many changing condition including but not limited to, massive increase of virulence and population of pathogens in the environment due to modern agricultural practices, the adaptation of non sterile gardening methods without a strong understanding of pathogens and pests, most especially organic soils including poor protocols in regards to genetics management.

I had some duding last run in LOS, did not change a thing, just used some EM-1 and mycostop, don't have final numbers yet but looking like I got close to a gram per watt this run, still did very well last run even though I had duds. No refined chitosan or salicylic acid though I do use aloe and insect frass. I did use some regalia in veg to be proactive, it is made from japanese knotweed, I did not see any visual causation from its use. I did not do a side by side trial. I do get blight outdoors on my vegetables and will be using it alternate beds to see the results.

 

[Bongstar420]

Sure, I harvested 30% glue with dudding...

But you have no duds now or are you just harvesting dud fire?

Oh, also, the quality must be top shelf for gram per watts to really be a significant number.

I personally find harvesting 1 per watt of 15% to be far less desirable than 0.4g per watt of 25%

My dudded glue at 30% dry weight was 0.5/w with a 10% cull on flower lookin like 20%. 6% on the terps. It woulda been 0.7-0.8/w had I not culled subprime stuff. Woulda been 1.2/w if I included bottom flowers.

Actual duds look like nothing I've seen before, and I cycled through all the bugs and rots over the last decade. My duds look perfect to the untrained eye

TBH I don't think the triggers and unknown, rather their is an overlap of the same symptoms from similar diseases including a few very common fungal infections, some of which are systemic and cannot be removed from the plant, some of which can be removed and the plant recovered.

IMHO these infections are becoming far more prevalent due to many changing condition including but not limited to, massive increase of virulence and population of pathogens in the environment due to modern agricultural practices, the adaptation of non sterile gardening methods without a strong understanding of pathogens and pests, most especially organic soils including poor protocols in regards to genetics management.

I had some duding last run in LOS, did not change a thing, just used some EM-1 and mycostop, don't have final numbers yet but looking like I got close to a gram per watt this run, still did very well last run even though I had duds. No refined chitosan or salicylic acid though I do use aloe and insect frass. I did use some regalia in veg to be proactive, it is made from japanese knotweed, I did not see any visual causation from its use. I did not do a side by side trial. I do get blight outdoors on my vegetables and will be using it alternate beds to see the results.

 

[iTarzan]

Frostqueen and Wierd I think it is a combination of everything.

FQ that is why I focused on making perfect conditions. A factor I didn't mention is light. I have went to better veg lighting. I am wondering if healthy plants are fine under CFL or T5 but old strains, post problem plants need better quality light. I am using a 400w metal halide for veg now.

Bongstar my yields were crap. No bud density at all and no smell, taste and weak potency. Even a 25% yield was worthless.

Bongstar when you root cuttings of your duds to they root in the normal timeframe?

 

[Weird]

Sure, I harvested 30% glue with dudding...

I culled the duds at harvest, after I saw they were fucked up I decided to leave them to see if I could salvage the situation. I could not. I scrubbed the genes since they were easily reacquired.

But you have no duds now or are you just harvesting dud fire?

No duds, very happy with results, some of the cultivars I ran this run I have run before, some for years if not decades.

Oh, also, the quality must be top shelf for gram per watts to really be a significant number.

It is.

I personally find harvesting 1 per watt of 15% to be far less desirable than 0.4g per watt of 25%

I dont get those kind of differentials in resin when yield varies unless I fuck something up.

Here are some shots from this run, Ill have dry shots soon enough




here is glue as a reference

My dudded glue at 30% dry weight was 0.5/w with a 10% cull on flower lookin like 20%. 6% on the terps. It woulda been 0.7-0.8/w had I not culled subprime stuff. Woulda been 1.2/w if I included bottom flowers.

1 per of prime tops, i didnt weight the duds I didnt oil them I tossed them

Actual duds look like nothing I've seen before, and I cycled through all the bugs and rots over the last decade. My duds look perfect to the untrained eye

the duds I had were stunted plants that never put out weight or proper resin/terps

the big point here is that I did not scrap my medium or nuke my room, i culled anything I thought was suspect and added some simple soil treatments

 

[frostqueen]

TBH I don't think the triggers and unknown, rather their is an overlap of the same symptoms from similar diseases including a few very common fungal infections, some of which are systemic and cannot be removed from the plant, some of which can be removed and the plant recovered.

IMHO these infections are becoming far more prevalent due to many changing condition including but not limited to, massive increase of virulence and population of pathogens in the environment due to modern agricultural practices, the adaptation of non sterile gardening methods without a strong understanding of pathogens and pests, most especially organic soils including poor protocols in regards to genetics management.

I had some duding last run in LOS, did not change a thing, just used some EM-1 and mycostop, don't have final numbers yet but looking like I got close to a gram per watt this run, still did very well last run even though I had duds. No refined chitosan or salicylic acid though I do use aloe and insect frass. I did use some regalia in veg to be proactive, it is made from japanese knotweed, I did not see any visual causation from its use. I did not do a side by side trial. I do get blight outdoors on my vegetables and will be using it alternate beds to see the results.

Interesting stuff, Weird! Can't say I disagree with you; nice change, eh? Have you noticed with duds in your scene that often you will get huge weights, but that the resin and terps are much less? I've seen this and it has me scratching my head.

Aloe is something I need to explore. I can't totally say chitosan or aspirin is solving the problem. It probably helps to some extent. I have learned to recognize duds in veg now so for the last flower run or two I've been dud free. I have a couple of duds in veg that I keep for testing purposes. One type in particular I can't seem to get undudded via the techniques I talked about earlier.

The duds I've had in the past have been amazingly healthy-looking and have given great density and weight; they just lack much upward growth in veg and the usual resin/terps in flower. After a normal cure they totally lack smell/flavor. I never did tests on the THC levels. I pretty much just composted them.

I talked with a university botanist and they suggested that this might be epigenetic for that reason: it seems that only some aspects of 'health' are adversely affected, as if one specific gene is somehow being deactivated. She noted that 'dudding' has also been documented in tomatoes, but that this is an as-yet undefined condition.

She said the way to find out was to do analysis of the RNA.. and that sort of research is getting beyond my ability to really grasp, so I just told her to contact me if/when she wanted to explore that.

I agree with you about loose organic practices playing into it. Are there many cases of dudding with hydro or chem growers?

 

[Ichabod Crane]

I got it in coco with jack chem nutes.

 

[KONY]

I wouldn't consider the dud problem being fixed not having it one run.... that could just be good luck. My duds will sometimes effect 20% of a crop, sometimes 10% and sometimes none, there doesnt seem to be any relation, these plants are never right next to each other or anything obvious. It definitely prefers some strains over others though, in my case Stardawg, bubba, Wifi#3 and casey jones.

I dont think all dudding is the same either; My duds grow normal and healthy weight, however they lack resin and terps and are non smokable. Nice big buds though. I've also seen only half of a plant dudded a few times. This seems more rare than the whole plant though. Others are experiencing dudding that has a big effects on yield, I haven't had that problem.

 

[Ichabod Crane]

I have had all those on different plants. In the end they all had a lack of frost and smell. Just some were the whole plant and some just a branch or two. Had plants that grew great but no smell or frost. Had other plants that did not grow for crap and had no frost or smell. Had some that never made it to flower because the branches kept breaking.

 

[Weird]

I wouldn't consider the dud problem being fixed not having it one run.... that could just be good luck. My duds will sometimes effect 20% of a crop, sometimes 10% and sometimes none, there doesnt seem to be any relation, these plants are never right next to each other or anything obvious. It definitely prefers some strains over others though, in my case Stardawg, bubba, Wifi#3 and casey jones.

I dont think all dudding is the same either; My duds grow normal and healthy weight, however they lack resin and terps and are non smokable. Nice big buds though. I've also seen only half of a plant dudded a few times. This seems more rare than the whole plant though. Others are experiencing dudding that has a big effects on yield, I haven't had that problem.

Never had healthy plants minus resin, had runts last run that had weak growth and poor resin. Treated soil. Problem gone.

Duding is a generic term that covers a bunch of maladies, which imho are microbial.

What your explaining seems to be much like a fungus I was reading about.

 

[Ichabod Crane]

I should state that I did not check the yields for the affected plants. It was obvious that the plants had no value so there was no reason to check yields. Some did appear to have good bud size just little if any smell and almost no frost. The frost that they did have was only felt when disposing of the plant. Under a scope it look tiny and undeveloped. It was nearly completely missing. The smell that they did have was very weak and off from normal. Again it was only noticed when taking the plants down when it built up on my hands.

It is my belief that it started in my roots a spread that way. I had the same strains side by side and one had it and the other didnt. It really spread threw my grow when I dunked my plants to kill off fungus gnats. I think this is when it really spread was at that point. What ever it is, it is really really slow spreading in my grow.

A fungus or something like that makes sense to me.

 

[iTarzan]

Kony I agree there are different types of duds and it is too early to declare victory.

Kony the duds I have I have only fixed to the point that they are growing without witches broom and root in a normal time. I am not trusting any of them to a flower run yet. It is a long process. I will not declare victory unless they grow normally, cuttings root normally and they flower normally. I am only going to flower one at a time or one of a couple strains. I can't waste time or space on a big run of something that can dud. I want to fix them and save them and hopefully have them to flower like I used too.

I went to seeds to see if I had something that spread regardless of my efforts to prevent it. And also to run some stuff that isn't dudding. I have a good seed collection and obtained some clones back that didn't have problems. It is less stressful trying to fix duds if I have a good supply of weed growing that isn't duds.

After killing all pests it has not spread to other plants including the seedlings. The seedlings and other new different cuts are indicator plants. Like there are indicator organisms in stream that if they are present a stream is clean. If there are caddis fly larvae or Dobson fly larvae (hellgrammite) then that stream is pretty clean. I figured seedlings start clean and if it could be spread without pests transporting it they would get it.

It is a work in progress.

 

[Weird]

Interesting stuff, Weird! Can't say I disagree with you; nice change, eh? Have you noticed with duds in your scene that often you will get huge weights, but that the resin and terps are much less? I've seen this and it has me scratching my head.

Aloe is something I need to explore. I can't totally say chitosan or aspirin is solving the problem. It probably helps to some extent. I have learned to recognize duds in veg now so for the last flower run or two I've been dud free. I have a couple of duds in veg that I keep for testing purposes. One type in particular I can't seem to get undudded via the techniques I talked about earlier.

The duds I've had in the past have been amazingly healthy-looking and have given great density and weight; they just lack much upward growth in veg and the usual resin/terps in flower. After a normal cure they totally lack smell/flavor. I never did tests on the THC levels. I pretty much just composted them.

I talked with a university botanist and they suggested that this might be epigenetic for that reason: it seems that only some aspects of 'health' are adversely affected, as if one specific gene is somehow being deactivated. She noted that 'dudding' has also been documented in tomatoes, but that this is an as-yet undefined condition.

She said the way to find out was to do analysis of the RNA.. and that sort of research is getting beyond my ability to really grasp, so I just told her to contact me if/when she wanted to explore that.

I agree with you about loose organic practices playing into it. Are there many cases of dudding with hydro or chem growers?

In the field you need to be able to come up with anecdotal solutions to solve problems, so I don't get stuck on lack of certain data.

Now to preface I never had a dud before last run. I have had plants that under performed, but that isn't duding, I can go into further detail as to why but don't want to get sidetracked.

The bottom line is, duding was a phenomenon that I had not experienced (that i know of, I may have had a nonperforming plant that was a dud run before but had attributed it to grower error)

HOWEVER, since I started going full no till in my flower, if not before that I had either abandoned proper methodology or never refined certain processes for best compatibility in my veg.

Basically it didn't matter how shitty my starts where, they always came around to finish very nicely. The last couple years from cloning to flower I was taking seriously sub par condition of my plants.

The plants in flower that duded where not growing like the others, they where showing the dud signs, and I had taken them from plants before I flipped them and they struggled shortly after cloning.

Now because there is already information about duding out there, and because it seemed most likely to be fungal due to my veg and other bad horticultural practices that I had been getting away with for some time.

As a field diagnostician I can simply put the potential issues into an array and make and educated guess as to which area is most likely the issue and treat it as such and gauge the result.

I tried to revive the duds last round with salasylic acid, activonate and insect frass, but got little favorable responses, but based on physiological responses, and the selective nature, it seemed most likely fungal (specific strains, not all plants some plants never effected) of compromised plants exposed to pathogens in shitty veg conditions.

I did not want to nuke everything and start over, mostly because I will never know what the problem really was and I will never learn to deal with that problem if it occurs again.

I applied EM-1 and Mycostop in my veg and to my flower, veg responded (plenty of anecdotals) visually so I decided to flower in all the same containers with cuts that seemed vigorous and not from the genes that expressed already.

I did research some of the common pests and pathogens to get an idea of what could be causing the issue and how they effect organisms in a given environment.

 

[frostqueen]

In the field you need to be able to come up with anecdotal solutions to solve problems, so I don't get stuck on lack of certain data.

Now to preface I never had a dud before last run. I have had plants that under performed, but that isn't duding, I can go into further detail as to why but don't want to get sidetracked.

The bottom line is, duding was a phenomenon that I had not experienced (that i know of, I may have had a nonperforming plant that was a dud run before but had attributed it to grower error)

HOWEVER, since I started going full no till in my flower, if not before that I had either abandoned proper methodology or never refined certain processes for best compatibility in my veg.

Basically it didn't matter how shitty my starts where, they always came around to finish very nicely. The last couple years from cloning to flower I was taking seriously sub par condition of my plants.

The plants in flower that duded where not growing like the others, they where showing the dud signs, and I had taken them from plants before I flipped them and they struggled shortly after cloning.

Now because there is already information about duding out there, and because it seemed most likely to be fungal due to my veg and other bad horticultural practices that I had been getting away with for some time.

As a field diagnostician I can simply put the potential issues into an array and make and educated guess as to which area is most likely the issue and treat it as such and gauge the result.

I tried to revive the duds last round with salasylic acid, activonate and insect frass, but got little favorable responses, but based on physiological responses, and the selective nature, it seemed most likely fungal (specific strains, not all plants some plants never effected) of compromised plants exposed to pathogens in shitty veg conditions.

I did not want to nuke everything and start over, mostly because I will never know what the problem really was and I will never learn to deal with that problem if it occurs again.

I applied EM-1 and Mycostop in my veg and to my flower, veg responded (plenty of anecdotals) visually so I decided to flower in all the same containers with cuts that seemed vigorous and not from the genes that expressed already.

I did research some of the common pests and pathogens to get an idea of what could be causing the issue and how they effect organisms in a given environment.

I'll check into EM1 and Mycostop. Do you also feel that use of aloe factored positively? What type are you using?

 

[KONY]

One thing I noticed with our dudding problem, is that we stopped using mycos about the same time it started to really become a problem. So we have started using mycos again, and now the roots and plants are much happier and dense. These pictures in this post the plants got mycos there last transplant going into final containers, but not whole time they were vegging.

Also have started using asprin and chitosan about once a week, not at same time. And gonna try mycostop once in early veg and once at flip I think. Was also thinking about using EM-1 to help get my soil going, I use neem meal, crab meal and kelp meal with no time letting the soil "cook", (the buildasoil/clackamas recipe)- thinking the em1 will help getting that process going quicker.

Current round is at 57 days, looks like 1 stardawg plant in there is dudding a few branches;

Regular branch on same plant:

I should mention i'm not 100% that top pic is a dud, however I have a feeling it will only get worse and it already has noticeably less smell/terps than the healthier branches.

 

[Weird]

is it brittle? how about where the stem of that branch meets the main-stem, where in relationship to the soil is it? What does that intersection look like? is it swollen?

 

[Storm Shadow]

Garlic Bloat Nematode aka stem and bulb nematode

 

[Bongstar420]

I clone the undudded branches.

Never cloned a fully dudded plant but did some that were probably duded as they had all dud traits except for small leaves and brittle branches (leaves were normal, and branches were more resistant to break than usual). Also, I wouldn't know what "regular time" is without growing a cut for years while not having the cloner get cold like it tends to do in the winter.

For instance, GG#4 was always weak at rooting, and I can't notice a difference with it. I will pull some cuts shortly. Got a couple that only look like RA and Rhizoctonia.

I did root off my Bright Moments which is back and forth with the dudding. I thought it was cyclamen mite, but am not sure the mites would exist without root rot, nematode, and RA. Anyways, the clones were only slightly weaker with a couple fails though that is fairly common for me with my half assed clone work. Bright Moments is super strong rooter and will root in 1 week in subpar conditions that kill many other cuts. The ones that did root showed strong root formation and little transplant shock when not nuted through the roof. They are in 4in pots now and looked like there were fully dudding out. I cut the watering back, kicked up the photon flux, gave them some Bacillus/Actinovate, and they appear to be poppin back with super fuzzed out roots when they before, they barely put out roots. I literally saw better root tips in 1 day...or at least I think I did. They were about to look like shadows phytoplasma pic. Next week, I will know if the roots just needed some homies since I don't inoculate anything and use the cheapest stuff available. I'm pretty sure I can find Rhizctonia in every plant as brown patches with roots around them. The actinovate seems to be pushing new white root through them brown spots. I boosted the actinovate with food though.

I think I may have dudded Jacks Cleaner 2. That one is a dirty whore to root. It may have been passed to me as a dud. Can't tell now. I'm pretty sure its sensitive to the Nematode and Rot. They do great root bound though.

I was doing experiments, but I dumped the stuff because its seed I have a thousand of. I have 2 plants which might be dudded because they seem to be average now. Before they were exposed to broads/RA/nematode/root rot, they were monsterous in growth rates. These are ACDC x Bright Moments. More thousands of seeds on this cut. Only keeping these two because they are still growin decent.

I did systemic neem. I formulated the stuff for high uptake by the plant. Saw burning from pesticide toxicity at 3ml/gal. The stuff closest to a dud showed more toxicity. I suspect there may be a weak virus involved. There are viruses which can exist that only change phenotype. And like someone said earlier, it could just be RNA silencing. I always thought I was a virus bin but that most virus doesn't do anything.

Another thing is that I am under the impression that some people have seen positive results treating duds with essential oils for broad mite....I read the oils. Usually half to all the EO are active antivirals or antibacterials with moderate phytotoxicity.

I suspect systemic essential oils have treatment usefulness in combination with SARs and protein blocking in virus clean up with also with IPM and fungi/bacteria.

I apply stuff to the root all the time and can smell the plants vaping VOC's 30min later. The room doesn't smell till the plants uptake the solution. The plants definitely absorb lots of different chemicals. I am virtually certain they uptake 1,8 Cineole for example.

Frostqueen and Wierd I think it is a combination of everything.

FQ that is why I focused on making perfect conditions. A factor I didn't mention is light. I have went to better veg lighting. I am wondering if healthy plants are fine under CFL or T5 but old strains, post problem plants need better quality light. I am using a 400w metal halide for veg now.

Bongstar my yields were crap. No bud density at all and no smell, taste and weak potency. Even a 25% yield was worthless.

Bongstar when you root cuttings of your duds to they root in the normal timeframe?

That looks exactly like the flowering dud. I suspect Rhizoctonia. When you find plants like that, maybe see if the roots are not consistently spreading in the container. There should be a circular patch with very poor root development and some very thin strands of fungus in the upper portions of the soil profile. This fungus is not improved with droughting. Also, theres probably RA if some leaves curl.

Chi/Asp definitely helps stop escalation of the condition.

One thing I noticed with our dudding problem, is that we stopped using mycos about the same time it started to really become a problem. So we have started using mycos again, and now the roots and plants are much happier and dense. These pictures in this post the plants got mycos there last transplant going into final containers, but not whole time they were vegging.

Also have started using asprin and chitosan about once a week, not at same time. And gonna try mycostop once in early veg and once at flip I think. Was also thinking about using EM-1 to help get my soil going, I use neem meal, crab meal and kelp meal with no time letting the soil "cook", (the buildasoil/clackamas recipe)- thinking the em1 will help getting that process going quicker.

Current round is at 57 days, looks like 1 stardawg plant in there is dudding a few branches;
View Image

Regular branch on same plant:
View Image

I should mention i'm not 100% that top pic is a dud, however I have a feeling it will only get worse and it already has noticeably less smell/terps than the healthier branches.