I no longer believe Broad Mites cause DUDDING

[Bongstar420]

I've apparently had them since April. I just noticed them last month and just now got enough sign to diagnose the thing. I think its cause I do lots of boosting and SAR stuff for general maintenance. Its just now I haven't given any booster/SAR stuff or done much spraying with the pesticides.

I proabbly didn't notice because of the boosting stuf

Hey retro grow, have u quit heat treating for broads? If so how long ago?
I've been dealing with broad mites for about 4 months now. All the plants I am about to harvest showed symptoms a little over a month before I flipped them, but after a month of treating u couldn't tell they ever had them. 50 days later, everything is looking amazing, including a cut of og kush I was particularly worried about. But, these plants were never severely infested...

 

[Bongstar420]

Russet mite?

I found that..just culled a couple oz of russet bud. Its a little yellowish compared to the less effected parts which are nearly normal. The most noticeable thing is dead trichromes and lots of half developed ones.

Don't whine about the price. 8oz = 2200 20mg doses @ 20%

Whine about crappy bud and concentrate from these botched grows

I have been keeping up on this discussion. I found some branches on the wifi that didn't look right. I have been talking to others growing this cut. They do not have the same health issues my cut has.. I can't say with any certainty what I saw was dudding. I'm leaning more towards a health issue. To be safe I will be making some changes...

I was using just Crab shell mixed into the soil. I will start using insect frass added to my compost teas. From what I have read there is nothing that is available to control Nematodes. The only thing that is ever discussed is Chitin. Can anyone verify the right kind of Chitosan before I buy what I found. This stuff is not very cheap.

 

[SourSmoke]

StudentTeacher,

Sounds like we have run a similar dud gauntlet on a similar timeline. Thank you for the lab test. Clicks with what I have seen lately rootwise.

Any chance you have noticed: the edges of leaves sort of missing or not developing. It almost looks like someone dribbled acid along the edge. The tips of new shoots seems to be missing sometimes and along the edges of leaves. Sometimes it is at a singular point where it has sort of sunken in and puckered. I'm wondering if it could be an effect of the chitosan but not likely since no one else is reporting it?

Viral??? I haven't had any luck googling up similar symptoms or pics.

I searched around the forum and this guys pics look quite similar. His seems more extreme but it's similar. Unfortunately he never received an answer. Does this look familiar to anyone??? Quite odd.

Thread with pics: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=272914

Thank you.

My Pics:

 

[SourSmoke]

Here are a couple better pics showing the weirdness .

Notice on the first photo how the entire lengthwise edges of the leaf are sort of missing like acid has etched them away. Otherwise normal and healthy.

On the second photo notice how all of the new growth is missing the sharp tips and appears sort of like a forked snake tongue.

Not trying to derail the topic but I have dealt quite a bit with duds and thought it might be correlated and perhaps someone has seen growth like this. thanks.

 

[StudenTeacher]

At first glance it looks like something took a bite out of it, or it was injured by force somehow when the leaves were smaller.The newest set of leaves looks pointy. Have you sprayed any pesticides? Man, I've seen that weird type of growth, but things have been so up and down over the past couple years that it's hard to remember exactly when/where it took place. None of my plants that tested positive in this thread had that type of growth. Most had normal healthy growth until mid/late flower. I wish I could be more help, I'm still more of a student than a teacher.

 

[StudenTeacher]

The reason I asked about pesticides is some can react with the light or nutrients to cause burning, and sometimes a weird set of leaves or two will appear. Looks like a tad too many ferts last week maybe? That's all I can think of. How do the roots look?

 

[zooty]

Here are a couple better pics showing the weirdnesshttps://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=64195&pictureid=1519560View Image https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=64195&pictureid=1519561View Image .

Notice on the first photo how the entire lengthwise edges of the leaf are sort of missing like acid has etched them away. Otherwise normal and healthy.

On the second photo notice how all of the new growth is missing the sharp tips and appears sort of like a forked snake tongue.

Not trying to derail the topic but I have dealt quite a bit with duds and thought it might be correlated and perhaps someone has seen growth like this. thanks.

I'm seeing the same strange growth after spraying and I also just had broadmites but plants otherwise seem to be healthy

 

[siftedunity]

ok, from my over all assumption, based on this thread, the old dud thread, and everything else ive read, this is either a nematode issue, bm issue, or a mold/fungus.

given those ideas, as long as the cuttings are free from mites or insects, surely we could inoculate with chitosan, fungicide/s, and a nemocide killer and we should be good to go? surely if we hit with these it should irradiate the issue?

 

[thchunter]

didn't someone get a dud tested and came back with a virus/pathogen?

 

[Bongstar420]

My guess; You were doing stuff with the plants or doing stuff around the plants?

I get stuff like that after disturbing the plants with heavy branch banging.

It could be related to more mites in the buds or thrips though. If your out, it could be plant bug, lygus, or some other type of homopthera.

I never noticed duds that weren't root rot not worth curing till I picked up commercial clones. I suspect they are spreading disease on purpose...resistant disease; at least I got some legit cuts with the broad mite came 29%THC chocolate funk whooooieee

Here are a couple better pics showing the weirdnessView Image View Image .

Notice on the first photo how the entire lengthwise edges of the leaf are sort of missing like acid has etched them away. Otherwise normal and healthy.

On the second photo notice how all of the new growth is missing the sharp tips and appears sort of like a forked snake tongue.

Not trying to derail the topic but I have dealt quite a bit with duds and thought it might be correlated and perhaps someone has seen growth like this. thanks.

 

[Bongstar420]

I know why and have "solutions"

You won't like my answers...I'm gonna play your 19yo version and say how about you figure out your own solution or buy the pot of a person who has.

I don't read these forums looking for someone to save my career. I read them for fun.

lol

Sorry bout your seed....you should do test crossing. 25% of crosses are garbage. Ironically, I've got plenty of seed with 75% winners. Some seed is 80% winners.

My last pull was Gorilla Glue #4. I picked it up with broads and thrips and at the same time a Ghost OG with mildew. First pull with mites was 29.8% and the second pull was 29.6% still with broads (6.3% terps). The Ghost OG is the only plant that I lost which was seriously dudded but it was an accident. I didn't know it had broads and grew it for months without any treatments. I thought the thing was suffering from inbreeding depression, not disease.

Freebie:

They say white flies distribute the broads...well, so do fungus gnats. My fungus gnats do their mating dances on the leaves, or at least they look like it.

I threw everything out, moved, started over from seed in a new location and now duds again.. 6-7 weeks into flower before signs show and damn right I'll ride out the last couple weeks so I can at least harvest some shitty buds and make hash. I got just over two lbs of marketable buds off of six kw and hopefully a thousand bucks in hash. Yes that sounds bad but it also beats working in a restaurant. A few buds, and some shitty hash, and I can afford to eat. Thank god the big room didn't go down. I just ripped out all of my wood tables, took down the panda plastic from the walls, replacing all fans, and I will paint the walls, and physan the cement floor. No more wood table stands, just cinder blocks and plastic tables. Just spent 10 grand on ac and replaced all carbon filters. I've been growing for roughly half of my life and had my first crop 18 years ago. I could give a shit less about hyped up genetics, or trying to save a strain. I've grown about 25 -30 seed packs and about 150 clones from here in socal, and all but 3-4 plants turned out to produce a marketable product. Sure some turns out better than others, but it all sells. If you think I'm fucking around here, you are mistaken. I'm doing the best I can with what I have. I'm learning more every day. The problem before was I didn't know shit about anything, as I didn't have any real problems the first ten years or so, and I didn't realize I was a complete amateur.
If you have something to contribute, then help us out. If you think you're hot shit, well, then, you remind me of the 19 year old version of myself. I got laid more when i was 19 so maybe it's not all bad, lol. This is a big deal for a lot of us, and you come around here talking shit? How about trying to offer a real solution. The shit is usually in the environment, water, or grow medium, then it gets into the plants. Throwing away plants is great, but preventing them from becoming infected is even better.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

Psa off topic

The reason why the natural organic mite spray Gaurdian works so well is it has just a (recently detected) secret ingredient. Avid. No shit, they just got busted by my favorite lab in Eugene Oregon. O G Analytical. The owner of the company even copped to it in a statement.
http://www.oregonlive.com/marijuana...lags_potential_problem.html#incart_river_home

 

[iTarzan]

Duds are not from stem nematodes. Every type of stem nematode causes white flag where the leaves turn chlorotic because the stem nematodes like to get in the leaf stems.

Cross stem nematodes off the list. It isn't a virus either. The latest research says it is caused by types of bacteria.

 

[Storm Shadow]

Stem Nematode White Flagging...its not "White"

Your spreading around gospel bs from the Farm

 

[iTarzan]

[URL=http://utahpests.usu.edu/IPM/images/uploads/factsheet/alfalfa-stem-nematode/fig3.jpg]View Image[/URL]

Stem Nematode White Flagging...its not "White"

Your spreading around gospel bs from the Farm

The picture you just posted is "white flagging" of alfalfa. Thanks for posting and solidifying my position.
Anybody that google nematode white flag or alfalfa white flag will get that picture. How stupid are you that you would argue I am wrong but post the very picture of white flag. I know you are going to argue yellow.

The duds I had never looked like that and always have, ALWAYS have, witches broom.

IMHO it is not stem nematodes. So go back to not telling people how to exactly fix what you think you know but don't.

And you never tell anybody anything anyways. Plus you never fixed anything. You cleaned up, cleared out and started over with seeds and fresh cuts.

It is most likely bacterial.

 

[iTarzan]

I am putting it all out there. I don't care who thinks what. Research things I post here and do what you want.

I think dudding was a combination of things. There was something in the above ground portion of plant, bacteria, fungus, whatever but not stem nematodes. Plus the roots were off. They were not as big, white or fuzzy as usual. The roots were skinnier and not as white.

I finally killed every bug. I had fungus gnats and two spotted mites after a long battle with broad mites. So I had a broad mite toxin thing going on too.

I use promix bx with EWC, lime, gypsum, azomite, perlite, kelp meal and crab shell powder.

I water in 2 ml SM90 once per week as a soil conditioner and bug defender. You could use neem if you like that better. I do use neem once in a while.

I drenched chitosan at 1 gram per gallon first time and then .5 grams once every week or so.

I use OSA 28 http://osa28.com

I kept conditions as perfect as possible and took cuts from the best new growth.

I lost some stuff but I saved some stuff. I also started growing some seed grows while I kept treating stuff.

I didn't want to be counting on a full run of potential duds. So I would use clones of my new seed moms which were healthy as my main plants. Then I would put in one or two plants from past duds that I thought were fixed. If they didn't dud I would run them again but maybe a couple more. Just to be confident.

It is easier to deal with if you have some good plants to smoke and sling.

If you get them growing vertical and not horizontal with excessive branching (witches broom) then take the top cuts. If they root in their normal time then you might have stopped dudding. Try a plant in flower and see.

 

[iTarzan]

Welcome to the crazy lab.....

Here is something else to try. If you have a plant that is giving dud cuts or is a sickly witches broom plant. Spray it with STS mixed 1:9. Drench it. In a couple days if it didn't hurt the leaves much keep spraying it every other day for a week or so. If it doesn't show any ill effects from the spray you could keep doing it for a couple weeks. Silver kills bacteria, bugs, molds, fungus and other stuff. That is why it is used in medicine.
STS can cause leaves to yellow some and it will slow down the overall growth of the plant temporarily.
STS will not permanently change a female to a male plant. In fact the effects at blocking female flowers only lasts 2-3 weeks. So you do this in veg. Then let it come around and start growing normally again.

I have done this twice now and it has worked. I first noticed it with cuts of a plant I was going to make seeds. Some I was using as seed moms and some I was reversing. Untreated seed moms dudded and reversed plants were totally healthy and produced pollen.

Even if it was stem nematodes, which IMHO it isn't, I think silver would kill them too.

Florist use STS as antifreeze. When they ship cut flowers in freezing weather they let the cut flowers soak up STS solution and then ship them.

 

[iTarzan]

I lost quite a few strains during all this. Once they get too weakened, even though you might start figuring it out, they just have nothing left and died. Some I tossed when I learned they would not make it.

I still have a few that are not completely recovered yet.


In the meantime these plants are not dudding.

 

[Bongstar420]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23421446

https://books.google.com/books?id=wd9sBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA282&lpg=PA282&dq=chitosan+silver+virus&source=bl&ots=QFZvL5lrgX&sig=2GIYfhzj39exkQ4VPdz6tPhExEM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjn4-iYlbfKAhVM2WMKHR2pDYIQ6AEIRjAF#v=onepage&q=chitosan%20silver%20virus&f=false

Great idea! Totally worth investigating

Silver might work for those weird non virus things too.

I got some duds I can spray with STS to see what happens. So far I can only make them look healthy and not be brittle but they still are slow and not looking like the original pheno.

Solubilizing Silver with Nitric acid and then reacting with Sodium Thiosulfate will produce nanoparticles when allowed to stand. The particles morphology and size are controlled by impurities and Ph. The particles may not be active feminizers as I used STS with visible nanoparticles to no effect.

Welcome to the crazy lab.....

Here is something else to try. If you have a plant that is giving dud cuts or is a sickly witches broom plant. Spray it with STS mixed 1:9. Drench it. In a couple days if it didn't hurt the leaves much keep spraying it every other day for a week or so. If it doesn't show any ill effects from the spray you could keep doing it for a couple weeks. Silver kills bacteria, bugs, molds, fungus and other stuff. That is why it is used in medicine.
STS can cause leaves to yellow some and it will slow down the overall growth of the plant temporarily.
STS will not permanently change a female to a male plant. In fact the effects at blocking female flowers only lasts 2-3 weeks. So you do this in veg. Then let it come around and start growing normally again.

I have done this twice now and it has worked. I first noticed it with cuts of a plant I was going to make seeds. Some I was using as seed moms and some I was reversing. Untreated seed moms dudded and reversed plants were totally healthy and produced pollen.

Even if it was stem nematodes, which IMHO it isn't, I think silver would kill them too.

Florist use STS as antifreeze. When they ship cut flowers in freezing weather they let the cut flowers soak up STS solution and then ship them.

 

[iTarzan]

Good links bongstar. The one was combining STS with chitosan.

I had been holding off on putting this info out there because people want to start challenging things instead of being open minded. Then I figure it was better to get more eyes on the theory and maybe people will start to experiment and as a group we possibly make some new breakthroughs. I don't see any point in hiding what you know or what you are working on.

It just made sense to me when I saw the health of the reversed plants was better than the same reversed cuts. I had used Silver ointments with good success on cuts. I knew organisms for the most part had no way to become resistant to metals.

I have a friend who was using copper in a similar way. He used copper for treating plants he bought at a garden store and saw improvement.

It can't hurt to experiment on a few plants.