Huge Trouble Starting SSH Seeds in Soil

[Savoir-faire]

I would also agree that composted compost wont burn cannabis... I sprouted many a bag seed last summer in pure composted manure. however... not all compost is created equal. Thermal compost.. fully composted, and cooled - WILL NOT HURT. When it comes to bagged stuff I believe what you should look for (not that companies wont lie) is nursery or greenhouse grade compost. Compost in general should settle to about 1-1-1..

However, I think that using compost to sprout seeds is taking an unnecessary risk and adding confounding variables. The seeds dont need it.. so why do it (unless u are doing some serious experimenting.. or are not using 180$ seeds.

 

[cosmik debris]

Different time and age but I used to use soil block makers and a trough fed wicking mat to set the soil blocks on in nursery trays. A whole table of trays could be reliably bottom fed w/ just enough. Never top watered until plants were large enough to justify foliar feeds.

The soil block makers started at about 3/4" cubes. The next size was about 1 1/2", and the third was a 3". Each mold created multiples of nicely formed, easy to handle soil blocks with a small depression in their center that would accept the next smaller size block. So seeds started in the 3/4" blocks were picked off and dropped into the 3/4" dimple in the 1 1/2" blocks that were already on the watering trough, and then from there the 1 1/2" block would fit nicely into the 3"ers. The nice part was that it was simple to manage selecting out at each stage without having had invested too much time in less viable sprouts. Another helpful aspect was the no stress transplanting right up to a 3" block. By the time the plants managed to fill the 3" cubes with roots they were pretty much impervious to all but my most determined efforts to fuck them up. The wicking mat feed system was also a huge benefit for me. The moisture was consistent and only what the soil could draw, rather than whatever I managed to dump on it.

The only feeding that was done was after the first true leaves sprouted and then it was weekly fish emulsion, liquid seaweed and some kind of root growth enhancer that I haven't seen for a while that was actually called Roots and was supposedly organic. The feedings were all through the troughs' rez.

The soil mix varied from time to time but nothing fancy; peat, MATURE compost (that meant at least a year old for us), perlite, vermiculite and solar sterilized top soil in roughly equal parts. The components were dumped into an electric mud mixer or mortar pan and water would be added to make it just damp enough to hold its shape when the cubes were ejected from the block maker. Takes a little practice, and making a shitload of trays of those little fucking cubes will make you a bit nuts, but all in all it worked extremely well.

 

[Savoir-faire]

I was at Fedco last week and really eyeballin those block makers... seems like a sweet idea.

 

[mad librettist]

Exactly Cosmik!

When I said I don't like plugs made of anything but soil, I was thinking of soil blocks.

 

[Savoir-faire]

Are the blocks used for cuttings as well? Good way to eliminate some plastic waste (for me)

 

[mad librettist]

I like a sterile and very loose medium for rooting, and then I transplant bare-root into my general mix. I would not use soil blocks.

I used to do this in straight perlite, but now I have discovered calcined DE from napa auto parts. This stuff makes it real easy. You can load it up with water, and it stores most of it internally, meaning the space between particles holds more air. More air and more water! And as long as your tray drains, you can water all you want without worry of rot. Drains like sand. You can just fill up a tray with it. Never mind the little cells, they are a waste of space.

The physical qualities of napa 8822 also seem to help the new roots get strong, branchy, and robust (the opposite of a cut rooted in water).

 

[Savoir-faire]

I was reading a convo on here about you guys rooting in that stuff. And i believe it was said that someone was using it as a perlite alternative?

is it something i can get at autozone?

 

[mad librettist]

I use it 1:1 as a perlite sub.

Autozone might have it. I have heard good reports on the carquest version. The bag should say "calcined diatomaceous earth". if it is calcined clay, it might still be good, but soak it in water for a good while to check if it turns to mush.

You'll want to make sure you have the right size particles, and if there are lots of fines you need to screen it.

I think in that thread, we touched on the buffering capacity of calcined DE. I said I wasn't sure, but that i would experiment on my carnivorous plants. They are so sensitive to pH that tapwater kills them by encouraging the bacterial microherd, which raises pH and releases nutes that are deadly to these bog-dwellers (they absorb nutes by trapping bugs with specialized trichomes). Well, it was a disaster. So clearly, calcined DE has a strong effect on medium pH. This is something to consider when adding lime (if you are using peat). Remember too, that even though it is buffering, it is not a calcium source.

So far, no problems with cannabis.

 

[cosmik debris]

Exactly Cosmik!

When I said I don't like plugs made of anything but soil, I was thinking of soil blocks.

Couldn't agree more. Never been a big fan of any kind of "peat pot/plug/whatever". Aside from the added costs (making soil blocks is a serious ass pain, but a perfect endeavor when baked), I've never seen one that completely integrated with the soil on transplant. Worse yet, if you get any kind of erosion or settling of the soil after transplanting and the top edge of one of those pots is left exposed to the air they tend to create something of a dry wall to root development. When I did use them I always ended up doing a little root pruning at transplant time 'cuz I'd tear the pot/net/mesh off first. Making soil blocks is time consuming, but you know exactly what's in them and you can kind of tune your mix according to your conditions. The other positive is that they integrate into their surrounding soil on transplant much more readily.

I was at Fedco last week and really eyeballin those block makers... seems like a sweet idea.

I probably mentioned this already, but just in case...MAKING SOIL BLOCKS SUCKS! At least if you're making trays and trays of them. Small scale they're great. The tiniest one (I'm pretty sure it was 3/4" square), is the most difficult to work with. You end up kind of packing the mold by hand to get them to all stay uniform. Forget the pictures of somebody just jamming the thing into a pile of soil and popping out perfect blocks. Never worked for me. That said, still my preference for anything under a couple of dozen nursery trays. Using the three piece set is the coolest part from my experience because of the low stress transplanting to larger and larger soil blocks.

Are the blocks used for cuttings as well? Good way to eliminate some plastic waste (for me)

Never tried, but I wouldn't recommend it. The blocks are a bit fragile, depending on your mix. and there are other mediums that seem better suited. The D.E. tray sounds really interesting for example.

Regarding the D.E., I haven't had a chance to do any checking yet but is this the same stuff that is used in some swimming pool filters? I'm not sure what that clay jazz is (not D.E. I would bet), but diatomaceous earth is the skeletal remains of some little sea critter (diatoms). 'Calcinated' sounds like some kind of marketing bullshit, but I may be wrong. As for buffering, that sounds reasonable. Again, haven't checked it out yet but it seems like it may have some calcium component in it, although no idea how long it might take for it to break down and become available if it does.

Never used it for anything beyond bug and slug control, but I'm definitely gonna try the cutting suggestion. Thanks a mil.

 

[mad librettist]

Regarding the D.E., I haven't had a chance to do any checking yet but is this the same stuff that is used in some swimming pool filters? I'm not sure what that clay jazz is (not D.E. I would bet), but diatomaceous earth is the skeletal remains of some little sea critter (diatoms). 'Calcinated' sounds like some kind of marketing bullshit, but I may be wrong. As for buffering, that sounds reasonable. Again, haven't checked it out yet but it seems like it may have some calcium component in it, although no idea how long it might take for it to break down and become available if it does.

Calcined is important! Before being calcined, DE is amorphous. Calcining changes its physical properties, making it very durable among other things.

powder DE: Pool filter DE is both calcined and treated chemically to make it extremely sharp. It is a very dangerous carcinogen and causes silicosis. Food grade DE is "raw" and much lower in respirable silicates.

The DE we are discussing is from fresh water and as far as I know all of it come from EP minerals. Diatoms are actually everywhere there is water, including soil.

AFAIK calcined DE like axis or napa 8822 is not as dangerous as pool DE, but you should still wear a mask and have good ventilation when kicking up the dust.


EDIT: what I said below about calcined vs. amorphous is false. apparently it is still amorphous after calcining. this is from the MSDS:

1.1. Product identifier
Natural Diatomaceous Earth (Kieselguhr)
REACH Registration number: Exempted according to Annex V.7.
Trade names: AXIS® Regular, AXIS® Fine, AXIS® Coarse, MP-78, MP-79, MP-94, Floor Dry™, Play
Ball!® Fine and Play Ball!® Regular
Chemical name/synonyms: Natural Diatomite; diatomaceous earth, kieselguhr
1.2. Relevant identified uses of the substance or mixture and uses advised against
Industrial Absorbent, Soil Amendment
1.3. Details of the supplier of the safety data sheet
EP Minerals Europe GmbH & Co, KG (importer/distributor), Rehrhofer Weg 115 D-29633, Munster,
Germany, ph. no. +49.51.92.9897.0, email address EPME@epminerals.com
EP Minerals, LLC (manufacturer), 9785 Gateway Drive, Suite 1000, Reno, Nevada 89521
(manufacturer), ph no. +1-775-824-7600, email address inquiry.minerals@epminerals.com
1.4. Emergency telephone number
Emergency telephone number: +49.51.92.9897.0 (available only during EU working hours); +1-775-
824-7600 (available 8 am – 5 pm PST)
2. Hazards Identification
2.1. Classification of the substance or mixture
Kieselguhr (amorphous) with less than 1% respirable quartz
This product does not meet the criteria for classification as hazardous as defined in the Regulation EC
1272/2008 and in Directive 67/548/EEC.
Kieselguhr (amorphous) with less than 1% respirable quartz
Regulation EC 1272/2008: Classification EU (67/548/EEC):
No classification No classification
2.2. Label elements
Kieselguhr (amorphous) with less than 1% respirable quartz
None Page 2 of 7
2.3. Other hazards
Acute inhalation can cause dryness of the nasal passage and lung congestion, coughing and general
throat irritation. Chronic inhalation of dust should be avoided. May cause irritation (tear formation and
redness) if dust gets in eyes. Although not absorbed by the skin, may cause dryness if prolonged
exposure. Ingestion of small to moderate quantities is not considered harmful, but may cause irritation
of the mouth, throat and stomach.

 

[rrog]

These little 6-packs mentioned for the seed soil.. do they drain? I have yet to find any online. Still looking

 

[mad librettist]

do they drain?

just about anything can be made to drain!

 

[cosmik debris]

Thanks Mad. 'Preciate the info.

Ever wonder why cigarettes have hundreds of dangerous chemical compounds in them and yet...we don't get an MSDS or Hazard Communication Training class when we buy them. Hmmm, I wonder why Congress isn't all over this like the shit flies that they are?

I'd like to see an MSDS on some good weed that's been vaporized. Then publish the results in a full page NY Times ad, right next to the cigarette MSDS without identifying which is what - and then ask people which one they think should be illfuckinlegal.

Sometimes the bullshit is just too much. And they wonder why people just say fuck it and start flyin' planes into IRS buildings.
"Ground control to Major Tom..."

 

[Savoir-faire]

the 6 packs that i have used do drain.. Can easily be cut though.

Didn't want to post any links cause i wasn't sure if they were allowed.. but anyway..

http://compare.ebay.com/like/220739...ffb4706&itemid=220739915082&ff4=263602_304662

similar concept: http://www.igrowhydro.com/Nursery-Flat-Insert-72-Holes.aspx

You can also use little bathroom dixie cups with holes cut in bottom. (plastic not paper!)

 

[rrog]

Wow. Basically flats. I was over-thinking these things. Thanks.

 

[Savoir-faire]

That's what im saying.. Flats lol. I know the topic has been solved but i figured i'd post these pics (if I can). For kicks, I planted 2 little flats of sungold cherry tomatoes a few days ago, and put em under the t5's next to some other more interesting seeds. 1 flat filled with str8 promix.. 1 flat with equal parts peat, compost, perlite (+ rock mix).

The promix seeds (all but 1) came up a full day quicker than the other mix. -Unfortunately I don't have the pic of that - but i decided to take a pic a few days after this thread came up, in which it is obvious that the promix ones were up first.

In the end all seeds did come up. Only other observation: I noticed the red stems on sprouts (which i have seen in cannabis too) only in the compost mix. I did NOT notice that on the str8 promix seedlings at any point, but maybe i just missed it.

 

[rrog]

Promix seems like the safest route. Is there a significance with the red stem?

 

[Savoir-faire]

Not sure. But they are still redder than those in pure promix (which I can now see growth tips on). safe is what i like.

 

[rrog]

I ordered the Premier Pro-Mix Ultimate Seeding Mix. I appreciate the help a great deal. I have new seeds en route also

 

[rrog]

I suppose I could use styrofoam cups with holes drilled for drainage?