how many generations til a strain becomes yours

[SpaceBros.]

“It is nobler to declare oneself wrong than to insist on being right --especially when one is right.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Wise words GK. I'm going to jump off the thread. I've hijacked it enough. Must be the Arab in me lol I'm not religious in any way btw

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]how many generations til a strain becomes yours[/FONT]

To summarize the consensus is around four (maybe more) generations to call something your selection. You should state when and where you obtained your seed stock from and how long you've worked it and come up with a fresh name (eg. Yocs BB). If in the future DJ were to obtain plant breeder's rights it's never going to be "yours", you'll have to introduce fresh genetics otherwise he can sue you. You're legally free to call it "Blueberry" and sell your seeds as such at this stage. But the Canna community feels it's disrespectful to DJ Short and the hard work he put in if you call it that.

 

[sourpuss]

4 gens of selection is a lot of work. Still pales in comparison to what dj did.

How many gens do you think dj put in????? Serious question and hope it puts your selections in perspective.

I think what flames people the most is names being tossed around with no respect to the work put in to make that name what it is. "Breeders" taking elite level work and muddying its genetics into weak shit that still carries the og name? Sold as such and makes peeps think that strain is weak....

Heres an easy way to disti guish between breeders who care and dont. Look at the strain names. Copycat names point to not caring. Og names point to breeders who did the work to improve something. Put an og name on that shit cause they know the shits the bomb!!!

 

[sourpuss]

Sure, but nature didn't give us Blueberries... maybe thai, afghan and mexican cultivars? Not really, they were also developed by man's selection and work through the years. The only thing that nature gave us was wild or primitive cannabis plants without much cannabinoids or terpenes. It happened the same with corn and Brassica Oleracea, would you eat wild teosinte corn?:

View Image​

Nature didn't give us brussel sprouts nor broccoli, they were bred by someone from wild mustard plants, without their work we would never have them. Fortunately sice the time that Mendel, de Vries and others discovered how genetics work (and the modern genetic engeneering nowadays), plant breeding progressed so much that now any researcher or plant breeder can develop a plant cultivar within a few years. In the past it was done through decades or maybe even centuries by all the different hands that contributed to it empirically. It was the case of most crops (corn, rice, wheat...).

You are the only one that's lacking morals when you think that all the hardwork of this plant breeders or anyone else should be "donated for a better world". Would you like to work for free and for the sake of it? Would you like others to take profit on your work? Then don't do it, its a matter of respect, something necessary in order to live in a society. I would definitely love to live in a different era, but unfortunately we live nowadays in a capitalistic, money centered and market based one and even if we don't agree, we are pretty fucked up. If I had the opportunity to work in a society where money wasn't needed or ruled everything, I'd definiety love to trade and exchange my work and services for other products or servicies, I'm sure that we would be all happier and society would progress in a whole different manner like that. But nowadays this is utopic and I think this is not the point on this debate, right? Don't be demagogic.

As for the Blueberry being disctinctive enough... well for me the simple fact that DJ Short was one of the very few breeders in our history that created his works from original landrace stock is more than enough and should be taken in account. Genetic background of his strains is definitely distinctive from the rest of the commercial strains (sharing mostly the same genetics) and that's what really matters if we speak of originality in plant breeding. Maybe if DJ wouldn't have been using afghan genes to cut harvest time, improve structure and so on like most breeders did it would be even more original or revolutionary? probably as well but that's not the point either.

But who has done that too apart from DJ and Skunkman anyway? Seattle Greg who created the Northern Lights? Sure the oldschool hippies and California pioneers. Maybe some spanish breeders and a few underground guys out there too? Well that's distinctive enough for me... definitely distinct from all the rest of people who are "creating new" (new? not really) strains by renaming and combining others that already exist within months.

For me it's just the same as remixing or sampling in the music industry. That's cool but after all, they are just bringing back sounds from the past (that were very successful already!) and giving them a tiny twist (tiny enogh so it's not considered a rip-off by the law), but no way they are creating or composing brand new stuff from zero. Either they don't have the skills/talent for that or they aren't really willing to work that hard and long in order to do it, or they are lazy because they are just looking for quick buck and not for originality, creativity and self expression. That's what I consider proper breeding anyway.

Vibes.

P.D: by the way, everyone speaks about morality within the cannabis industry but those who buy seeds have the same responsability or even more than those who rip the people off! if you don't like something, just don't support it or contribute. Consumers rule the market, don't forget about that.

Nl was bred in Seattle?? As a canadian I find that laughable but ok. Still think its a whole mystery around nl.... not sayin it aint the truth but id suspect it was a little more north haha... can you point me in the direction of where you got this info from?

Anyone with the truth pls stand up.... not surprised, americans claim anything surrounded in mystery haha...

 

[Coba]

DJ's Blueberry can in no way be a botanically accepted cultivar. It simply doesn't meet the criteria

I think you're not reading the links provided.

review time.

With all due respect, DJ's Blueberry is the quintessential definition of a cultivar.

 

[rhinoman 1]

Nl was bred in Seattle?? As a canadian I find that laughable but ok. Still think its a whole mystery around nl.... not sayin it aint the truth but id suspect it was a little more north haha... can you point me in the direction of where you got this info from?

Anyone with the truth pls stand up.... not surprised, americans claim anything surrounded in mystery haha...

Hey sourpuss wolverine mi is we're nl originated .

 

[sourpuss]

with no proof??? just like that?? come on.... nl was bred in BC, Canada... gifted to our friends down south. Till i see some real proof this is what i believe...

 

[yocs]

hey space bro thanks for the msg and suggestions.I couldn't figure out how to respond but don't worry about hijacking, I appreciate everyone's options and find it entertaining.

 

[SpaceBros.]

I personally think Blueberry is not sufficiently different (or stable enough) from the plethora of strains already on the market to be considered a cultivar under existing laws. It grows to a height of any other Indica out there, with a similar flowering period, leaf size, branching pattern and same cannabinoid profile as any other strain out there. As I understand it the blue hues and characteristic aroma and terpenes are not always expressed and even JD (DJ's son) says they need to be coaxed out at times.

Furthermore for one to make selections it stands to reason that there must be at least some variation. For variation to exist implies instability. Where instability occurs well we no longer have a cultivar unfortunately. Otherwise all Blueberry would be the same no matter what selections were made or "who's" blueberry it was.

DJ's Blueberry can in no way be a botanically accepted cultivar. It simply doesn't meet the criteria

I think you're not reading the links provided.

review time.

With all due respect, DJ's Blueberry is the quintessential definition of a cultivar.

Please use logic and reasoning to make your argument. You fail to address any of the criteria I mention as to why Blueberry I think will not be accepted as a new cultivar.

Similar plant height as any other Indica dominant strain
Similar branching pattern as others
Similar flower formation and flowering period as others
Similar Yield as others
Similar Cannabinoid profile as others
Similar leaf size, shape and colors as other

It does have a somewhat unique terpene profile, aroma and blue coloration. BUT these traits are not always expressed.

I've also heard it's not a uniform strain either and significant variation exists as well as mutations.

From DP website:

Its repeat growers like to grow a number of seeds from it to find and create a special mother plant within it

This to me suggest variation.

What makes you think it's a cultivar?

Maybe Yocs can describe the uniformity of the original seed lot from DP and how that compares to his current F4 selections?

 

[Mustafunk]

Nl was bred in Seattle?? As a canadian I find that laughable but ok. Still think its a whole mystery around nl.... not sayin it aint the truth but id suspect it was a little more north haha... can you point me in the direction of where you got this info from?

Seattle Greg who sold the original NL seeds to Nevil posted it at MrNice forums:

Aloha,

The base plants for the entire Seattle Northern Lights strains 1 to 10 was a batch of seed sent from Afghanistan that ended up in Herbie's employers hands who just happened to be an old friend from High School so I was able to get four seeds. Then I started doing seed crops of the pure Indica and crossing it with other strains from Nepal, Mexico, and Columbia.

I had clones and seed and NL#5 was Hawaiian x Steve Murphy's Afghani Strain that is what I sent to Nevil. Steve Murphy owned The Indoor Sun Shoppe in Seattle. NL #5 was a F1 hybrid in 1982.

Northern lights # 1 was Nevils Afghani crossed with the Seattle Afghan strain form Steve Murphy.

I have been breeding since 1970 and he got NL from me. I sent seed to Ben and Kees at Sensi too for giving me the nutrient formula for Grodan and Seattle water.

The 11 strains were graded by height and flavor for indoor growing. The #1 was a short phenotype pure Indica from Afghanistan as was #2,3, & 4. #5 to #11 were the Hybrids with the narrow leaved strains we worked with.

The 11 packets of seed Nevil received were graded the #1 ,2, 3, were 100% indica, #5 the clone I traded Herbie Nelson for was 50% Afghani & 50% Hawaiian sativa. The others #6-#11 were crosses with Columbian, Thai, and Mexican Sativas. Nevil then sold out to Ben, became partners with Arjan, and then hooked up with the Mr. Nice Crew.

 

[Coba]

The Plant Patent Act of 1930
" ...patent new varieties of plants, excluding sexual and tuber-propagated plants ...."
The Plant Variety Protection Act of 1970
"The PVPA gives breeders up to 25 years of exclusive control over new, distinct, uniform, and stable sexually reproduced or tuber propagated plant varieties."

The International Union for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants or UPOV
"For plant breeders' rights to be granted, the new variety must meet four criteria under the rules established by UPOV:[2]
The new plant must be novel, which means that it must not have been previously marketed in the country where rights are applied for.
The new plant must be distinct from other available varieties.
The plants must display homogeneity.
The trait or traits unique to the new variety must be stable so that the plant remains true to type after repeated cycles of propagation.
Protection can be obtained for a new plant variety (legally defined) however it has been obtained, e.g. through conventional breeding techniques or genetic engineering."
The Community Plant Variety Office (CPVO)
"The CPVO works rather like the Office for Harmonization in the Internal Market: it grants intellectual property protection for new plant varieties fullfilling the following requirements: Community plant variety rights shall be granted for varieties that are:[1]distinct; uniform; table; and new. "


Plant Breeding
"Plant breeding can be accomplished through many different techniques ranging from simply selecting plants with desirable characteristics for propagation, to more complex molecular techniques (see cultigen and cultivar)."
Cultivar
"A cultivar[nb 1] is a plant or grouping of plants selected for desirable characteristics that can be maintained by propagation."

Plant Propagation
Plant propagation is the process of creating new plants from a variety of sources: seeds, cuttings, bulbs and other plant parts.
Sexual propagation (seed)" because genetic recombination has occurred. A plant grown from seeds may have different characteristics from its parents."
Asexual propagation" includes, Air or ground layering, Division, Grafting and bud grafting, widely used in fruit tree propagation, Micropropagation, Stolons or runners, Storage organs such as bulbs, corms, tubers and rhizomes, Striking or cuttings, Twin-scaling, Offsets"


So, Basically what I gather is, if yocs found something interesting, say economically valuable and completely different from the original blueberry description and new in the terms of it hasn't been sold as or even used for that trait for more than a year, he has two options... either make an asexual clone and propagate the special trait that way and call it his own special trait or select multiple individuals that display the same trait and sexually reproduce them until most or all of the seeds breed true. Then he could legally call it his own special trait of blueberry or even something completely different all together. I think.

Just because cannabis is a legal grey area doesn't mean it doesn't deserve the same treatment as it's commercial horticulture counterparts. And, just because DJ Short didn't breed everything all by himself doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the rights afforded his also legal counterparts.

Weather or not DJ bred blueberry all by himself, or used established hybrid genetics doesn't matter. Well, it shouldn't matter and wouldn't if cannabis was treated equally in the eyes of the law. Just the fact that his name is attached to the finished product is good enough.

I haven't bought any of DJ's seeds so I am not trying to defend an idol here. I don't care how good or bad his seeds perform personally, I'm trying to place cannabis on the same level as Valencia oranges. Made from two already established lines of oranges, yet is now known as the worlds greatest orange, Brah.

 

[SpaceBros.]

The Plant Patent Act of 1930
" ...patent new varieties of plants, excluding sexual and tuber-propagated plants ...."
The Plant Variety Protection Act of 1970
"The PVPA gives breeders up to 25 years of exclusive control over new, distinct, uniform, and stable sexually reproduced or tuber propagated plant varieties."

The International Union for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants or UPOV
"For plant breeders' rights to be granted, the new variety must meet four criteria under the rules established by UPOV:[2]
The new plant must be novel, which means that it must not have been previously marketed in the country where rights are applied for.
The new plant must be distinct from other available varieties.
The plants must display homogeneity.
The trait or traits unique to the new variety must be stable so that the plant remains true to type after repeated cycles of propagation.
Protection can be obtained for a new plant variety (legally defined) however it has been obtained, e.g. through conventional breeding techniques or genetic engineering."
The Community Plant Variety Office (CPVO)
"The CPVO works rather like the Office for Harmonization in the Internal Market: it grants intellectual property protection for new plant varieties fullfilling the following requirements: Community plant variety rights shall be granted for varieties that are:[1]distinct; uniform; table; and new. "


Plant Breeding
"Plant breeding can be accomplished through many different techniques ranging from simply selecting plants with desirable characteristics for propagation, to more complex molecular techniques (see cultigen and cultivar)."
Cultivar
"A cultivar[nb 1] is a plant or grouping of plants selected for desirable characteristics that can be maintained by propagation."

Plant Propagation
Plant propagation is the process of creating new plants from a variety of sources: seeds, cuttings, bulbs and other plant parts.
Sexual propagation (seed)" because genetic recombination has occurred. A plant grown from seeds may have different characteristics from its parents."
Asexual propagation" includes, Air or ground layering, Division, Grafting and bud grafting, widely used in fruit tree propagation, Micropropagation, Stolons or runners, Storage organs such as bulbs, corms, tubers and rhizomes, Striking or cuttings, Twin-scaling, Offsets"


So, Basically what I gather is, if yocs found something interesting, say economically valuable and completely different from the original blueberry description and new in the terms of it hasn't been sold as or even used for that trait for more than a year, he has two options... either make an asexual clone and propagate the special trait that way and call it his own special trait or select multiple individuals that display the same trait and sexually reproduce them until most or all of the seeds breed true. Then he could legally call it his own special trait of blueberry or even something completely different all together. I think.

Just because cannabis is a legal grey area doesn't mean it doesn't deserve the same treatment as it's commercial horticulture counterparts. And, just because DJ Short didn't breed everything all by himself doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the rights afforded his also legal counterparts.

Weather or not DJ bred blueberry all by himself, or used established hybrid genetics doesn't matter. Well, it shouldn't matter and wouldn't if cannabis was treated equally in the eyes of the law. Just the fact that his name is attached to the finished product is good enough.

I haven't bought any of DJ's seeds so I am not trying to defend an idol here. I don't care how good or bad his seeds perform personally, I'm trying to place cannabis on the same level as Valencia oranges. Made from two already established lines of oranges, yet is now known as the worlds greatest orange, Brah.

When I eat a Valencia Orange it looks and tastes the same no matter where it's grown or who by. Can you say the same of Blueberry or any other Cannabis strain for that matter. Why are there not 1,000+ "strains" of Oranges on the market?

Unfortunately modern drug Cannabis has very little variation. It's almost all 8weeks flower, Indica Dom, High THC, Low CBD. It's also extremely an environmentally variable plant which further muddies the waters.

You ask a member of the general public to go through a grow room and decide which strains are different to others strains. They can't do it. Hell I can even do it sometimes hence why I label my plants. Same goes for smoking weed. Even some seasoned stoners I know (who don't check out forums) can't tell the difference between strains when smoking them and don't acknowledge the presence of flavors in weed. It just tastes like smoke they say. Or this is a bit stronger than the other. Or a bit harsh. These are just very subtle differences that require years of smoking to appreciate.

 

[Betterhaff]

When I eat a Valencia Orange it looks and tastes the same no matter where it's grown or who by. Can you say the same of Blueberry or any other Cannabis strain for that matter. Why are there not 1,000+ "strains" of Oranges on the market?

Valencia oranges are a hybrid grown from clones. When breeding citrus the outcomes have to be exceptional to ever make it to production or market. Similar with apples.

 

[waveguide]

people who smoke weed and still think they can own shit

hehe

you want to own shit, shit owns you

i smoke marijuana so shit won't own me. why would you want to go back?

forget about it. you, the plant, you know each other. you're friends. you don't have to get all alpha about it.

is the sky yours? somehow, you manage to coexist.

 

[waveguide]

Ya'll sound like Monsanto!

quoted for emphasis

 

[Kweku Ananse]

quoted for emphasis

Yeah stfu about laws. This is about respect and due credit.

Human qualities, not lawyer/politician shit lol :-*

 

[rhinoman 1]

Hey sourpuss its a joke lol.

 

[yocs]

Valencia oranges are a hybrid grown from clones. When breeding citrus the outcomes have to be exceptional to ever make it to production or market. Similar with apples.

now that's what I call comparing apples to oranges lol

 

[purpthumb]

dj

 

[Tom Hill]

You need to approach DJ and ask if it's cool or not,, if this "not that i am ever trying to sell it" ever changes. Their is no way around that in the realm of honor.

Blueberry is certainly a variety, and it belongs to DJ Short.

 

[Kweku Ananse]

You need to approach DJ and ask if it's cool or not,, if this "not that i am ever trying to sell it" ever changes. Their is no way around that in the realm of honor.

Blueberry is certainly a variety, and it belongs to DJ Short.

Blueberry is a variety which belongs to no one. It was bred by DJshort. Possession, ownership, belonging... all illusions.

DJshort is a master and deserves credit, respect. Selection is much different than creation.

Monsanto thinks they are god, hence all the gmo and gene patents, I would hope growers have more of a one for all kind of mentality to oppose the all for one kind of talk such as "blueberry BELONGS to one man, he's the king, he makes all the rules, and reaps all the taxes

Think about it