Heritability of Intersex Traits

[URUK]

I think those expressions were created and aren't just sitting in the blueberry pool. Why did you say to look at blueberry? You understand tests have to be performed to verify these sort of individuals. You can't just grow them out and see the difference. And you said some would say they're pretty prevalent? Who are these people? I've been wasting a lot of time on these sort of sites for many years. I've yet to see anyone credible talking about them.

I was told that the Chocolate Thai had been treated with colchicine, i'm pretty sure thats where the mutant factor comes from.

The XY mechanism may have nothing at all to do with intersex traits. Why do you assume it's the heart of the problem when there's so many other chromosomes that these intersex traits could be on?

It may not, and I don't assume. I think there are sex promoting genes and seperate sex determination genes.

It may all be genetic conflict !

I should have probably said contains no intersex gene expression. The genes might still be there but aren't seen in the phenotype....making them Dioecious in nature.

And then there is my favourite type, which contains no intersex genes, the Dioecious type- All plants are either female or male.

contradictory to say the least.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Well I think there are blueberry keepers to be found for sure. I don't want to come across too harsh on DJ; just trying to speak honestly about some of the mistakes he made. In fact, I think his germplasm is some of the best available. So, just think how bad the other breeders must be fucking shit up. 3/4 of my garden is blueberry hybrids. Anyway, we've gotten way far off topic here.

And URUK- I don't know why you're maintaining the strange XXXXY types when even in DJs case you think they were created with mutagens. I think you can pop thousands of skunks and never find these types. In the research you quoted they were created to further understand the sex mechanisms, they weren't saying all those types exist in natural populations. At least that's what I read into it. Again it's hard to tell when you just quote a paragraph and don't post the research. (sorry if you posted and i missed it)

 

[GreenintheThumb]

The mutant factor comes from DJ never outcrossing his work and using too many already inbred 1:1 matings. If for several generations you cross all your already half sib plants to a single male, big surprise, you get a seedlot that lacks vigor and has accumulated deleterious recessive genes. Combine that with sample sizes of less than 50 plants and you're ganna run into problems. It's pretty hard to properly maintain germplasm when your breeding in a trailer park. He never put colchicine on his seeds. Don't believe the hype, but if you don't believe what I say feel free to pm and ask him.

 

[Fuel]

The inheritance of sex and habit of monoecious and intersex types is not explained by the simple XY system but that monoecious lines MUST be maintained by man. Dioecism is dominant and without selection monoecious lines would revert to dioecious.

And.. without selection the dioecious woul revert to monoecious state. It's a cycle on decades.

In my opinion, and by this way, it's difficult to determine if the dioecism is truly dominant against the hermaphrodism factor who induce the monoecious state naturally.

Dioecism being natural and the hermaphrodism being a mutation... i'm more ok for say than it's relative to the state of the strain in his cycle.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Ugh, Fuel you're wrong. It's not some magical cycle that goes back and forth. Why did you even post that? Where did you come up with this idea?

The bold quote you posted and your own first sentence are oxymorons.

 

[nvisionary]

I dont think it is a "simple" system of X/Y. Rather its a system of sex chromosomes and minor genes on the non-sex ones...

 

[URUK]

The mutant factor comes from DJ never outcrossing his work and using too many already inbred 1:1 matings. If for several generations you cross all your already half sib plants to a single male, big surprise, you get a seedlot that lacks vigor and has accumulated deleterious recessive genes. Combine that with sample sizes of less than 50 plants and you're ganna run into problems. It's pretty hard to properly maintain germplasm when your breeding in a trailer park. He never put colchicine on his seeds. Don't believe the hype, but if you don't believe what I say feel free to pm and ask him.

FYI he did not breed Choc Thai. and the Choc Thai is in other crosses that show mutants.

 

[URUK]

Again it's hard to tell when you just quote a paragraph and don't post the research. (sorry if you posted and i missed it)

Just for you (since I like you), I will post up all PDFS etc

 

[nvisionary]

is "chocolate thai" in the 'Blueberry'?

Blueberry is a mess. most 'Blueberry' seedlings are not even close to being keepers. great work Master DJ Short. You never even hear of anyone with a good straight Blueberry cutting. its a myth.

 

[URUK]

is "chocolate thai" in the 'Blueberry'?

Well its alledgedly in OPT (Chocolate Thai X Highland Oaxaca Gold), but theres a lot of inconsistant stuff in the writings.

 

[VerdantGreen]

.... You never even hear of anyone with a good straight Blueberry cutting. its a myth.

i have a great blueberry mum from a DP FEM seed. it's about 18 months old now. vigorous, stable, healthy and the favorite of all who get to try my weed.
pics in my gallery or grow diary if you are interested

V.

 

[nvisionary]

good. lets see how long you have it Verdant...a keeper can be measured in decades, not months.

 

[VerdantGreen]

yep - i really hope it lasts forever.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

The reading I have done recently seems to show that there are multiple pathways for the plant to decide on it's sex. One of those pathways seems to lead to mutations such as the male flowering of DJ's F13 or Blueberry. I believe these to be more of the asexual code rather than hermaphroditic, albeit often mistakenly referred to as "hermie" when being trashed by confused growers.

I have found ultimate keepers (imho) of both strains, and although I may not be a high dollar connoisseur, my selections are far from schwag posing as a mythical grail.
The mutations add to the character of these strains.

 

[Fuel]

They are not sorcerers i promise.
Khrennikova G. A., 1971. Peculiarities of monoecious hemp breeding. In: Issues of hemp breeding. "UROZHAY", Kiev.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

They don't cycle back and forth...that's ridiculous. The natural state is dioecy and ferral or unselected lines will move in that direction.

 

[URUK]

In the research you quoted they were created to further understand the sex mechanisms, they weren't saying all those types exist in natural populations. At least that's what I read into it. Again it's hard to tell when you just quote a paragraph and don't post the research. (sorry if you posted and i missed it)

http://www.cefe.cnrs.fr/ecogev/siteFR/ppFR/docTL/Heterochiasmy.pdf
http://www.rochester.edu/College/bio/labs/WerrenLab/My Papers/1998_Werr&Beuk_SDEvol.pdf
http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/94/2/141#T1
http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/19/65.pdf
http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/reprint/92/6/979.pdf
http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=vgfkuf8xb2ebaph2&size=largest
http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/86/2/211

some of the above will refer to hop or humulus because Humulus and Cannabis are monotypic sister genera in the family Cannabaceae.

I did have more but some have been removed from their locations. I also realise that its a bit to go through.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Just read through the first four of them. My god, I'd rather kill myself than read the first one again. Hahahah, really brought me back to having to study things I wanted nothing to do with in college. The others are all pretty great reads tho. The one all about hemp from the 20s is really amusing to me. It's amazing how far genetic research has come in the past century. I think any of us could have been a plant researcher with published research back then. Thank god for advances in molecular biology, genetics, and biochemisty; we can finally pull these mysteries apart.

Thanks for taking the time to post all these. You're a good member to have in the community. btw- does one of the last ones have the XXXXXY experiments?

 

[URUK]

does one of the last ones have the XXXXXY experiments?

No it does not appear so, it was based on Warmkes work, and I cannot find it, so as such I will go through a post from your Fav book MJ botany.

Studies by Warmke and Zhatov revealed that the normal sex ratio for diploids (2n) is nearly 1:1, but tetraploids (4n) form a new class (XXXY) and develop about 7.5 females:1 male, plus female-hermaphrodites. The XXXX is female; XXXY is female-hermaphroditic; XYYY is male-hermaphroditic, and YYYY is male. The XY determination of sex does not account, however, for the development of some monoecious strains. Seemingly, the sexual expression of hemp can be controlled by some other gene set(s) influencing different aspects of flowering. Environmental conditions also can overpower the genetic expression of Cannabis' gender, especially in the final stages of flower production. (20-23)

and an interesting read here

http://mail.bio.uaic.ro/publicatii/anale_biochimie/2007_VIII_f2/2007_Anale_GBM_VIII_f2_l07.pdf


But you are quite right in your thinkng about polyploids, to my knowledge they are induced with treatment and very few survive..

I remember you asking about the 6 different types of females and males - I think these are those

female showing:
a. bearing exclusively female flowers = normal dioecious female
b. bearing female and androgynous flowers = androgynous female
c.bearing female ,androgynous and male flowers = androgynous monoecious
d. bearing male and female flowers = monoecious
e.bearing exclusively androgynous flowers = androgynous form belonging to female habit series; and
f.feminized male plant bearing exclusively male flowers.( dioecious feminized male )

and the same for males.

obviously type f is a prob


Edit: I had to edit the shit out of my post as I had gone into gobbldygook land. I will try to find the actual research for you, but feeling bit Ill at min.

 

[bbing]

Environmental conditions also can overpower the genetic expression of Cannabis' gender,

Conditions can TRIGGER.

The trigger points are the trait your looking for. Sexlinked but not sex determined?

Colchicene is overrated