Heritability of Intersex Traits

[Cerathule]

I'm only at page 5 so far, sorry in advance if that got asked already BUT could a complete model of sex determinism be established? Like, by combining both X/Y and X/A modells or enlargening the scope of definition to the whole karyotype?

And btw, why does this forum show so many by-proxy pics ("hybrids from hell")?

 

[GMT]

Scientifically or socially acceptably? We can't even decide on one for people if going for the latter.

I'd also be interested in knowing whether an X/Y X, would generate a different phenotype expression from the same autosome as an X/A X, that had the numerical tipping point of S-D genes, to create exclusively male flower expression naturally.

 

[Cerathule]

Scientifically or socially acceptably? We can't even decide on one for people if going for the latter.

I'd also be interested in knowing whether an X/Y X, would generate a different phenotype expression from the same autosome as an X/A X, that had the numerical tipping point of S-D genes, to create exclusively male flower expression naturally.

I'm not through yet, so S-D doesn't ring a bell for me....

A definition as broad to bring both the results from scientific studies/ experiments and experience gained by breeders under the hood. As all these things are legit. Even "mutations", or inbred depression, it's there, likely to be spread. One relatively new study pointed out the Y chromosome being wrecked by viruses/ viroids in prehistoric times, now filled with "selfish DNA" that may lead to individual chaotic situations yet introduce a positive creative influx when the unfit are culled under strong selective pressure, such as in outdoor wild-forms.

What I gathered so far is the Y contains sex deterministic factors (either by either female-suppression or active-male) to give way to a male-gender-phenotype (as in longer internodes, taller growth, less sideshoots and more early flowering) --> leading to a small sexual dimorphism of that species (incl. monoecious hemp) BUT that is not what most select for or even take for the base definition of male vs female.
The typical approach is to look out for what kind of flowers are being created by that karyotype, with anthers present these are attributed to male-factors! There's 1 short post by @GreenintheThumb that briefly tried to specify this difference

The active male linked Y that is responsible for the production of a plant's maleness may just be coding for a certain type or types of hormones/proteins that activate the part of the genome that contains the physical architecture of maleness. The sex reversal treatments likely mimic this natural system.

In other words: the sex determinism genes aren't the sex differentiation genes.

^ notice the word "may". Underlining by me. Is this actually true?

If so then this has some serious repercussions/ consequences in the way the whole case is approached. Without genetic analysis it may seem borderline impossible to arrive at a true verdict in a selection process by the mere looks of it. And I doubt most chuckers are even aware of this.
Could this be the reason, or at least, one aggravating factor, of why intersex traits resurface constantly because males with female organs were mistaken as pure females?

Anyway, the X:Y system is by far too simplistic to account for all the data at hand, impractical - leading to "false positives" - even in lowscale STS feminization breeding projects. Why not 100% feminization-rate possible when an all-deciding Y chromosome is absent?

edit:
S-D = sexdet?

 

[Cerathule]

Some of the links to referenced studies are now broken, here are some I could find via the title or excerpts.

>> that "b92.73.2.13" was an IBL.

 

[Cerathule]

1 study @GreenintheThumb did ask for.
It has 3 (or 4) places to briefly elaborate on flower architecture of Cannabis (also miswritten "Cannebis") and explains something interesting on its flower development

In some species, unisexual flowers show no evidence of the missing sex, and male and female flowers may differ radically in general morphology and size. In Cannabis sativa, female flowers result from the direct “pass-over” from perianth initials to carpel initials; these flowers never form any vestiges of stamen initials (Mohan Ram and Nath 1964). The genus Mercurialis contains both dioecious and monoecious species, with unisexual flowers devoid of rudiments of organs of the opposite sex (Durand and Durand 1991). Yet under certain conditions, sexuality can be reversed by hormone treatment, and in some cases, both stamens and carpels can form in the same flower (Heslop-Harrison 1957). The occurrence of hermaphroditism and sex reversal indicates that mercury floral primordia are sexually bipotent.

and speculates about the influence of MADS-box genes

 

[GMT]

I should perhaps point out at this point several important things.
This is a very long and old thread. ICMag has provided me with many things over the years, and one of them is the opportunity to learn. So some of my earlier posts will have said things I now look at as ignorant. For instance, the active Y was proposed, and rather than understanding that this merely referred to the statement "if there's a Y, it's a male" and mistakenly thought that the Y was being labelled as containing the instruction sets for becoming a male. Which even back then, was known to be false. So the older the post from me, perhaps tone down the credibility you give its contents. Later posts should be more on point though, as there have been a lot of knowledgeable and patient people here over the years.

Yes S-D = Sex_det1 genes. Which it's been a while since I read the paper Sam put up show how sex determinism worked in the X to Autosome lines, but I'm pretty sure was the name given to a single gene, within the autosomal region, that is responsible for "maleness".
Not in a if present:male, way, but in a if s.d.n>t.p.=male way, where tp =tipping point.
Now in XY lines, no such gene exists, or perhaps it does, but is located exclusively in the Y equivalent Chromosome, (not Y shaped but does the same job as a Y in mammals).

So having said all that, this is my sticking point before we can get to a grand unified theory of sex determinism in cannabis. What happens when the male tipping point of SD is breached in an XY line where parent =XX? I suspect this many be one cause of intersexed plants.

 

[Tom Hill]

You had me at the word maleness. I love you brother.

 

[Tom Hill]

I reckon I am always correct even back then lol. But I reckon I am not haha. What I do, and what I expect nay fuck all that demand, of every honest man with a brain, is to come forward with what he thinks. You have come through with flying colors brudah many thanks for having the balls.

 

[Mudballs2.0]

Holy shit i thought you were banned

 

[Mudballs2.0]

So the older the post from me, perhaps tone down the credibility you give its contents

embrace those cringe posts friends...few are those daring enough to put themselves out there. My skinned knees are innumerable...but that's why i am better at the game now than others who didnt get on the field.

 

[LostTribe]

I still find it strange that stress can turn a true female to hermie. Seems stress testing is important to reduce the likelihood of carry on the trait in the progeny.

 

[Ecor1]

North India regeneration via open-pollination

That’s so funny you are selecting against female hermaphrodites without eliminating the gene pool but added genetics to stabilize the ethylene rich male onto females to be more ethylene positive. I can see that process wow this is great stuff. This N. Indian hermi does it make its own seeds sometimes or do you keep it stable when growing it outside next to all the other females?

As far as looking back on old ignorant posts; I get rid of them waste of time to read.
I wonder if we grasp this concept it will illuminate other possibilities?

 

[Tom Hill]

Does 318 and 319 not self contradict?

I don't think so. We are just talking about female phenotypes vs strongly female phenotypes this true female crap is, always was, and always will be dreamer world crap.

 

[Tom Hill]

Here we are some 10 years later and my numbers still sit right there at the same number. In some 40 years I only seen one maybe 2 intersexed lines that were financially damaging - out of fuck man untold numbers. The parameter simply does not belong, it has no business in selection protocol never has and never will.

 

[Dime]

I still find it strange that stress can turn a true female to hermie. Seems stress testing is important to reduce the likelihood of carry on the trait in the progeny.

I always stress them for stability if I plan on making seeds from them,I believe it's a waste of time not too,then I grow out a batch of offspring to make sure.I wonder if some hermies are triggered because people don't let the plant mature before flowering or grow from seed out of season. In my grow I have extension cords with lit ends that are fairly bright and a heater with an indicator light and I haven't had a hermie from that,some people state the slightest light leak will do it but I haven't found that to be the case for me and outdoors where I grow there is a yard light and a kitchen light visible . I have gone in my grow and turned the lights on during dark cycle out of necessity ,it doesn't worry me to do so infrequently.

 

[GMT]

"you may say I'm a dreamer,
But I'm not the only one,
I hope someday you'll join us,
And the world will be as one"
Lennon.

I don't think so. We are just talking about female phenotypes vs strongly female phenotypes this true female crap is, always was, and always will be dreamer world crap.

Active Y lines need to be talked about separately from X to Autosome lines. The problem arises when people cross the two lines together. At F2-f3 stage, the laws break down. It's the black hole of cannabis breeding. Takes a real space cadet to fly around in there.