GH 3 part lab analysis (by Advanced Nutrients)

[analogue]

98% of people that grow for a living don't give a flying fuck about mixing salts to save a few bucks on food. They want ready to go foods with feeding charts for a guide. Some of them do adjust the ratios but that's it don't don't care about salts unless is building up in soil.

Okay.

I'll venture that the same 98% flush their 80 gallon reservoirs down the drain. And in the Bay area that is god knows how many tons of chemical effluent staining and polluting the ocean.

That affects the natural world at large and the surrounding community. It's dumping. And I call it a crime.

 

[Guest 18340]

Okay.

I'll venture that the same 98% flush their 80 gallon reservoirs down the drain. And in the Bay area that is god knows how many tons of chemical effluent staining and polluting the ocean.

That affects the natural world at large and the surrounding community. It's dumping. And I call it a crime.

Umm, nothing to do with this thread...

 

[habeeb]

GH is their biggest competitor in the international market, that might be the reason for AN's continuous bashings.
Anyway, even thought AN's reasons are bad as they are, some useful info came out of it, and that's way more better than just a bunch of the usual baseless claims and lies so I'm happy for this.

Next step for AN or GH might be sponsoring side-by-sides done by a third party to actually prove something.

After that, nute companies might even start to research nute requirements of drug type cannabis plants.
So far the nute companies were only racing about who can tell bigger lies, instead of improving their products based on real research.
Right now the main question for them is : "What can be sold (...as an additive)?"
While this would be much better : "What actually WORKS?"

Don't forget that no research has been done so far to even try to determine the nute requirements to grow Cannabis for optimum THC content, althought every other cultivated plant (like tomatoes, corn, etc) nute requirements are well researched. So the farmer knows he have to raise K and lower N at the and of ripening to have better yields/quality and it's not just based on some hearsay but a reliable side-by-side research, done by researchers, not by marketing managers.

Meanwhile companies like AN and GH are selling preformulated watered down seriously overpriced uneconomical nutes and additives and there is nothing that would say these actually improves anything. Compared to what? There is not even a baseline established yet.

Anyway this topic should be about the findings of the lab analysis, not about the marketing battles from AN on GH.

I think Spurr has or will get GH 3 part analysed, so we can double check AN's results then.

I don't think GH will ever sponsor growing pot, while AN does, GH never wants a product of there's next to a pot plant, even if it is formulated or that's all they want people to use the nutrient for.. it would make GH look bad and would then clearly out them as a pot growing nutrient.. people might say this , but they never have yet..

for people thinking they just want to sell product, I think is far from people's imagination. are they in business, yes. do they want to sell product, yes. but let's look at what there selling before we bash them should we, they are providing "additives" which in word doesn't mean a plant can't grow without the additive, they say if you want your plant to grow better use an additive, that I sell, based off some research, yes additives should work better then a baseline nutrient, as in the case of silica, or fulvic acid, or in the case with seaweed with auxins.. all the additives they sell are ment to increase plant production / better resistance / stronger plant.. they never said you have to buy these additives, they are selling them off some research that they would make a plant better. if you want to bash them for selling a product they don't research enough, that's fine, but don't get mad that they sell products that are proven to help plants.. say for example all the bacteria and myco products, in lab results they should suppress disease and make plants roots easier to obtain food.... so they end up packaging subculture M and subculture B. which something I recently read, is they say to apply the subculture M before applying subculture B so the mycos have a chance to establish first, hence having to make two products, which seems valid to me, you?

I think some people like to think anyone who sells something is a ripoff artist, but how many people can even multiply bacteria to package, what about myco's ? these are products your gonna have to buy if you want them in a nice neat package, unless your gonna go to your friends house to pick up some of his drain off water to get some bacteria for your grow..

companies charge you for what you can't do yourself, and yes they make profit, or there would be no reason for them to exist. there are very few on this website, that can formulate there own salts, and for the rest of us we buy bottled nutrients.. now when we look at commercial growers, they buy a couple liters of product and end up with pounds of produce, which sell for as I've heard about approximate $2000 in CA, so who is getting ripped off, as you only paid GH $30 for some bottles, and what you did with there product you got how many fold back ?????

I see no point in complaining about price of product when price of ganja is alot higher priced. GH should be raising there price as what margin of profit they made, you made even higher...

here's some words from a nutrient formulator for GH ( william texier ):

"Read the labels and do not hesitate to run your own tests, comparing different nutrient brands"

there is an article of him stating, that all you need to grow plants is a base nute, additives are not necessary, but I can't find it right now




( tester, I'm not getting on you, I just used your words to start my message, as I see the common message, people think nute manufacturer's are the "devil" )

 

[Bud Bug]

I don't know that I would say most (maybe I just hope not most) but in general I see what you are saying. It is a shame that any of that goes on...but no question, it does.

In North America the hydro industry in not represented very well through regular retail channels. It is still mostly hydro shops catering to cannabis growers, like it or not that is the reality of this industry, which is sad as there's a HUGE hydroponic product market for every day plant growing that doesn't involve cannabis. Some store owners like to pretend like they are just a plant store but at the end of the day they don't want to expand to the regular public. I know I spent almost 9 years in this industry as retail sales/store manager thank god I'm done.

 

[farmdalefurr]

I don't think GH will ever sponsor growing pot, while AN does, GH never wants a product of there's next to a pot plant, even if it is formulated or that's all they want people to use the nutrient for.. it would make GH look bad and would then clearly out them as a pot growing nutrient.. people might say this , but they never have yet..

for people thinking they just want to sell product, I think is far from people's imagination. are they in business, yes. do they want to sell product, yes. but let's look at what there selling before we bash them should we, they are providing "additives" which in word doesn't mean a plant can't grow without the additive, they say if you want your plant to grow better use an additive, that I sell, based off some research, yes additives should work better then a baseline nutrient, as in the case of silica, or fulvic acid, or in the case with seaweed with auxins.. all the additives they sell are ment to increase plant production / better resistance / stronger plant.. they never said you have to buy these additives, they are selling them off some research that they would make a plant better. if you want to bash them for selling a product they don't research enough, that's fine, but don't get mad that they sell products that are proven to help plants.. say for example all the bacteria and myco products, in lab results they should suppress disease and make plants roots easier to obtain food.... so they end up packaging subculture M and subculture B. which something I recently read, is they say to apply the subculture M before applying subculture B so the mycos have a chance to establish first, hence having to make two products, which seems valid to me, you?

I think some people like to think anyone who sells something is a ripoff artist, but how many people can even multiply bacteria to package, what about myco's ? these are products your gonna have to buy if you want them in a nice neat package, unless your gonna go to your friends house to pick up some of his drain off water to get some bacteria for your grow..

companies charge you for what you can't do yourself, and yes they make profit, or there would be no reason for them to exist. there are very few on this website, that can formulate there own salts, and for the rest of us we buy bottled nutrients.. now when we look at commercial growers, they buy a couple liters of product and end up with pounds of produce, which sell for as I've heard about approximate $2000 in CA, so who is getting ripped off, as you only paid GH $30 for some bottles, and what you did with there product you got how many fold back ?????

I see no point in complaining about price of product when price of ganja is alot higher priced. GH should be raising there price as what margin of profit they made, you made even higher...

here's some words from a nutrient formulator for GH ( william texier ):

"Read the labels and do not hesitate to run your own tests, comparing different nutrient brands"

there is an article of him stating, that all you need to grow plants is a base nute, additives are not necessary, but I can't find it right now




( tester, I'm not getting on you, I just used your words to start my message, as I see the common message, people think nute manufacturer's are the "devil" )

wonderfully put ! ! ! ! ! id say its time to close this ignorant thread down

 

[MIway]

98% of people that grow for a living don't give a flying fuck about mixing salts to save a few bucks on food. They want ready to go foods with feeding charts for a guide. Some of them do adjust the ratios but that's it don't don't care about salts unless is building up in soil.

I don't know that I would say most (maybe I just hope not most) but in general I see what you are saying. It is a shame that any of that goes on...but no question, it does.

I read it a different way... for me... the nutes are a very small cost... I really don't care if I spend a pretty penny on something that works, for me. Overall, if it functions as I want it to (consistent, clean, w/o pH flux, etc), then I really don't care... as nutes are relatively cheap compared to other costs (say rent & power & bulbs & filters & membranes).

IF... AN really did something amazing for me... hell ya, and the 20 additives to boot.

BUT... ;-)


Knew this cat that I did some work with... the full AN line the rep had him on was at $10K per month... no fukn joke. We switched over to something like 3500... and it was his best harvest. Then again, the mites, aphids, gnats & mold were put into check. So, moral is... no nute line can make up for/replace a competent grow.

 

[Bud Bug]

Seriously all the foods out there work, if they didn't those manufacturers would have been out of business long time ago. It comes down to do you want to support a company that spews shit about other companies left and right then has tantrums when they are called out on it.

This name calling goes back to to the early 2000's when AN use to run radio commercials on the FOX and Rock 101 in the Vancouver area.

One of them use to start with something like Are you tired of just getting General results....

At the time it was AN, GH and Grotek who use to advertise on the radio at the same time.

 

[tester]

This thread meant to be about the results of that lab analysis, not about nute companies and related bullshit, there are plenty of threads for that already.

The results were published by AN which can be important and must be taken into account, that's all.

The biggest problem I see here is discrepancy in premixed fertilizer solutions (eg. every bottled liquid nutrient solutions, let it be GH's or AN's)


Differences between the label and the lab analysis in a couple of other products:

To see a bigger picture:

Big Bud and it's violations:

Botanicare can mix their solutions withint the accepted error levels:

Dyna-Gro can mix too:

Sources:
Big Bud label
http://www.advancednutrients.com/product_label_pdfs/BigBudPowder_label.jpg
Analysis
http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/PEST/docs/pdf/lab_2009_1231.pdf

Connie labels:
http://www.advancednutrients.com/product_label_pdfs/ConnoisseurPartA_label.jpg
http://www.advancednutrients.com/product_label_pdfs/ConnoisseurPartB_label.jpg
Analysis:
http://www.integralhydro.com/USANanalysis.html

Canna labels:
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/egov/is/fert/
Analysis
http://www.integralhydro.com/PDFsamples/about nutrients.pdf

 

[Storm Shadow]

Dont take Porno Mike for his word...the dude is a fucken hater....

GH doesnt make their own products....they wholesale from GrowMoreInc

They purchase the 3-part in 300 gallon containers from GrowMore...

GrowMore has been around since the 1920's and prices are 1/3 of GH...

I'd like to see bottles directly from GrowMore tested instead

 

[YosemiteSam]

You know, when you get right down to it may or may not be exactly what I think they are. I don't actually analyze the salts I buy.

I mean I am very careful about calculating formulas (i have someone double check to make sure i ain't jumped the rail), very careful about weighing, very careful about controlling pH while I mix, etc...but what if one of my ingredients isn't exactly what it is advertised to be???

Would I fall within acceptable variation? Or would I become fodder for an AN ad?

I guess if I were a big nute maker and actually wanted to do things right I would either have to certify my suppliers or buy equipment to test my incoming raw materials.

Do you have an opinion on how well the raw salt guys do quality control tester? Am I doing better than bottled nutes or just kidding myself?

 

[OGvenom]

Im not a pro but did do a side by side gh vs advanced 3 part could not tell the difference other than at my hydro shop gh liter was cheaper but the advanced gallon was cheaper i know just get the cheaper one

 

[LittleAmsterdam]

Gromore Inc is a good company, but I prefer DynaGro ! I would like to see a water analysis of DynaGro Bloom.

 

[Guest 18340]

This thread meant to be about the results of that lab analysis, not about nute companies and related bullshit, there are plenty of threads for that already.

The results were published by AN which can be important and must be taken into account, that's all.

The biggest problem I see here is discrepancy in premixed fertilizer solutions (eg. every bottled liquid nutrient solutions, let it be GH's or AN's)


Differences between the label and the lab analysis in a couple of other products:

To see a bigger picture:

Big Bud and it's violations:

Botanicare can mix their solutions withint the accepted error levels:

Dyna-Gro can mix too:

Sources:
Big Bud label
http://www.advancednutrients.com/product_label_pdfs/BigBudPowder_label.jpg
Analysis
http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/PEST/docs/pdf/lab_2009_1231.pdf

Connie labels:
http://www.advancednutrients.com/product_label_pdfs/ConnoisseurPartA_label.jpg
http://www.advancednutrients.com/product_label_pdfs/ConnoisseurPartB_label.jpg
Analysis:
http://www.integralhydro.com/USANanalysis.html

Canna labels:
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/egov/is/fert/
Analysis
http://www.integralhydro.com/PDFsamples/about nutrients.pdf

K++ for throwing up those charts tester.

 

[habeeb]

"This thread meant to be about the results of that lab analysis, not about nute companies and related bullshit"

isn't the lab results, part of "related bullshit" ?

I'm also a little tired of people complaining about companies all day too. how simple is the phrase, if you don't like it, don't buy it ?

these so called "evil" companies make it easy for growers to grow, and all people do is bitch about them, when they are the fuel for most every grow room in operation..


back to the topic, nice find on the charts, I like the charts tester did on the lucas comparison how they would be off to the samples tested... people grow just fine with all the different nutrient content in the bottles, have we ever heard of one person complaning that one bottle they got grew totally different to another bottle of the same nutrient. no, becuase I'm sure we can't even see these differences in our plant, or we would se emore threads on this, as instinct is way more powerful then knowledge..

.. it's a plant and plants know of fluctuation, hence why they store more nutrients in there leaves then needed.. plant's also are built to accept varying degrees from there environment..

I'm not sure, but how could we even say people are accurately measuring there nutes out? do they have micro bubbles in there measures, are they sitting eye level in the exact same position to measure nutrients every time.. this is growing and fluctuation occur every time you feed I'm sure of it. there is no super accurate way to measure nutrients unless we want growing to be a scientific lab operation, which would take the fun out of growing..

growing is not a science at the end of the day, it's a feel..

 

[tester]

A think of lab results as useful info, while marketing and various bashing on other companies as not useful info, so I'd like to separate the these two things if possible.

"I'm also a little tired of people complaining about companies all day too. how simple is the phrase, if you don't like it, don't buy it ?"

I'd also like to tell other growers about the problems with premixed fertilizers, and the reasons why I, and any reasonable grower won't buy those.

"evil" companies make it easy for growers to grow
What some people don't get is that these "nutrient solutions" sold in growshops are just some common fertilizer salts with added water. Nute companies just mix those salts in water, put them in a bottle with a fancy label. That's all. Anyone can buy the same salts and mix it in water.

Nute companies does the same for a 5000% markup which contains:
- added shipping, handling, storage costs. (at least 8 times more than salts, because the mount of water and the bottles.)
....
I will finish this later



"Discrepancy is not a problem":

If anyone have seen a problem with his plants before, - like yellowing of the upper leaves or tip burn or anything - he never even thought it was because of the nutrient solution, believing it's the same as it was before and if it wasn't a problem back then, it must be something else now. So people come up with the idea of "bad room problem" or "it must be the salt in coco" or whatever, never even took the nute discrepancy into account, not knowing it exists.

152ppm P instead of 100 is a big difference in terms of P content.

 

[turbolaser4528]

and this is why I will buy strait salts, instead of paying for water weight and markup. Ex: Calcium nitrate vs botanicare cal-mag: 1/10th the price, and 3x as strong (very rough estimate).

MY ONLY CONCERN: Are there the same inconsistencies in the salts? or are they much more consistent, if so, why?

What is a grower to do?

 

[tester]

Using individuals salts will lead to the best consistency, but purity obviously plays a role.

Mixed salts (complex fertilizers like 14-11-26) consistency depends on the purity of the salts and the mixing methods. Different particle sizes and densities makes it difficult to mix evenly, this is especially true for microelements where very small amount of salts are needed to be mixed in.
There are prilled or granulated ferts where the granules are coated with micros to overcome this problem.
Could not find a better source for now: http://www.wolftrax.org/_uploads/Th...ts/WT_advertorial_Blend Consistency_final.pdf

A runned through these reports to find the results of some complex and mono-fertilizers lab analysis: http://oregon.gov/ODA/PEST/fertilizer.shtml

Keep in mind that because these ferts are more concentrated so you need to use less, the differences are not so big as they might seem.

At a usual application rate (1g/liter) :

Label:
300N - 43.6P - 83K
Analysis:
297N - 49.7P - 98.8K

At a usual application rate (1g/liter) :

Label:
110N - 152.6P - 124.5K
Analysis:
116N - 156 P - 130.3K

Botanicare is also violating labelling regulations:

Mixing (by the grower) is an other question. Using a 0.1 g "precision scale" the error level is claimed to be +-0.1g while a measuring cup or a res can be off by who knows... depends on the scale.

I'm almost sure that discrepancy is lower with self mixed salts.

 

[ShroomDr]

tag

 

[OhighO]

You know the way AN goes bout their advertising OR should I say "competitor bashing" makes me doubt their professionalism. It reminds me of how slimeball politicians run campaigns. For that reason i will NEVER EVER EVER buy an AN product......

 

[MtnLivin]

Wow. Very useful information my friend! Thank you!!