Extinction by Hybridization: The Cannabis Biodiversity Crisis

[Zero Hedge]

I like this thread. The subject is significant, important and prescient. I also have this concern - it seems to blanket everything I see these days, like a dark cloud billowing down all around. We are living in the latter part of the anthropocene. Of course we have to try save things, but I also wonder if it's just too late.
For a long time I looked for pure strains, or strains that were simply bred correctly. I tried to order from Afro-pips, but by the time I got to them they were gone. RSC was another, but they didn't ship to the US. I'm grateful for the access I have now. I try to do my best to stay educated. I try to do my best by open pollinating what few plants I'm able to grow. I participate. I belong to forums where we happily trade seeds with each other. And yet, I look around and see that time is running out... not for the purity of the chemovars, rather for us

 

[Im'One]

KWIKSEEDS and real seed company are the same. KWIKSEEDS ships. To usa

 

[ngakpa]

rejecting conventional academic dogma. [....] He does a nice job of sharing a lot of his observations with the rest of us

oh please

buy their seeds by all means

but please don't go around pretending the misinformation and disinformation your "chotus" are spreading is anything other than profoundly negative

the world has more than enough confusion and delusion to deal with already

thanks!

 

[SUPER_HAZE]

Indian landrace are just a few more gold diggers. 10 15 euros for a seed that you do not know what you can get and that you have to put enough due to the diversity? WTF?

 

[PDX Dopesmoker]

oh please

buy their seeds by all means

but please don't go around pretending the misinformation and disinformation your "chotus" are spreading is anything other than profoundly negative

the world has more than enough confusion and delusion to deal with already

thanks!

A lot of what I saw about those seed sounds like some of them might help me with some of the outdoor survivability and performance issues I've run into, they sure do look promising, but on the other hand I've seen a lot of good jokes about seedpack salesmen who are willing to promise just about anything to make a sale. Quite a conundrum. If "chotus" doesn't mean "small glasses of whiskey" in 20th century Anglo-Burmese slang then I don't know what it means, but I do suspect that if the world is all fucked up as you say it is then there is bound to be some dissatisfied people questioning the conventional wisdom in all subjects in search of a better option as an inevitable symptom of the fucked-upness of everything. Or maybe those bellyachers are the ones causing all the problems and they're the disease rather than the symptom.

 

[ngakpa]

if "chotus" doesn't mean "small glasses of whiskey" in 20th century Anglo-Burmese slang then I don't know what it means

"chotu"


anyway, if we continue this conversation, are we going to end up with you going full climate change denial?

I ask because that's what happened when I challenged one of these twits on his obvious lies about the biodiversity crisis for Cannabis and the confusion he's spreading

 

[Rosomah]

Long time lurker,


ngakpa thank you for your work.
Cannabis sativa is a very interesting plant, not only because i like psychoactive effect


The CBD/THC ratio appears to be under the control of a simple inheritance mechanism. According to a model by (1), it is determined by a single locus (B) with two codominant alleles (BT and BD). The homozygous BT/BT geno-type underlies the THC-predominant phenotype, and BD/BD is CBD-predominant. The intermediate phenotype is induced by the heterozygous state (BT/BD).


What happened in last 50 years with BT/BT cannabis is really interesting. Breeding was mostly done for the black market with breeders interested mostly in profit. Starting populations went through severe population bottleneck, meaning seeds were collected from few good smelling, good looking plants that were not representative of a larger population. Most of them were selected indoors under ideal conditions and inbred to lock desired traits. I am talking about commercial seed production here.


Long story short a lot of cannabis on todays markets is like pugs (dogs), inbred to oblivion. Dont get me wrong, most of our food is produced by inbred plants, that we selected for maximum yield/hectare.

(source: wiki)


(1)De Meijer E, Bagatta M, Carboni A, Crucitti P, Moliterni V, Ranalli P, et al. The inheritance of chemical phenotype in Cannabis sativa L. Genetics 2003;163(1):335–46.

 

[ngakpa]

thanks, much appreciated, and thanks for sharing this

yes, I think there is a parallel equivalent with how traditional domesticates used for ganja (i.e. subsp. indica var. indica, the classic Sativa-type plants that made Haze) have a much narrower genetic base than other traditional Cannabis plants or wild-growing populations

Tropical Sativas have had heavier selection for potency over at least three hundred years

 

[romanoweed]

what evidence do we have on how strong "bottlenecking" was in tropial sativas ngakpa? I didnt find that much info. All i found was someone stating in SEAsia a while ago (in 70s?) they sometimes had separate breeding-spots on a lonely hill, for pollinisation, (breeding). Also i heard another one stating: he went once offroad, found lonely viallge, and basically everyone grew canna, armthick buds everywhere... very extended, like wineyards regions today.

So, based on that im not so shure if bottlenecking was that high.. If everyone grew it. All sinsemilla? But selecting process on lonely hill speaks for what you are saying.

 

[Rosomah]

All depends on population size romanoweed, and there is a difference between traditional varieties with of years of cultivation, selected for the right climate and strain with inbred mother/father lines.

If you really want to talk about breeding THC/CBD cannabis for outdoor climates you have to use more diverse populations idealy from big genetic pool.

 

[meizzwang]

I think it would be interesting to have complex landrace hybrids that aren't ever mixed with modern hybrids, but after the initial cross and selective pressure, are stabilized over time from many generations of natural selection. Maybe instead of an extinction of landraces, this could eventually, with decades of work and large population sizes, create a renaissance of new, desirable landraces!

Far from the goal, but the first step is crossing landraces with each other and developing breeder's intuition. Once you have that, then you can select which cross(es) are worth developing and acclimating on a genetic level to your conditions.

For the sake of inspiration: Parvati x Kerala F1: both parents, relatively speaking, were moderate yielders compared to the resulting F1 hybrid! Like the parents, the F1 had zero rot after being exposed to rain (unlike all the modern hybrids grown nearby), and like Kerala, this F1 is resistant to powdery mildew! In my opinion, this is the first step in the right direction: this F1 landrace hybrid is already far more adapted to the local conditions compared to most modern hybrids, and yield is comparable to modern hybrids:

 

[PDX Dopesmoker]

"chotu"


anyway, if we continue this conversation, are we going to end up with you going full climate change denial?

I ask because that's what happened when I challenged one of these twits on his obvious lies about the biodiversity crisis for Cannabis and the confusion he's spreading

You seem to be trying to imply that people who disagree with you are intellectual midgets because they also don't believe in climate change. Does your certainty about climate change stem from your own individual intellectual efforts and experiences in the study of the atmospheric sciences or are you just repeating ideas about climate change that the mainstream media and their friends in government have been forcing on everyone for the past three decades?
I ask you that because for my entire life the same people who are currently outraged about climate change have also been telling all sorts of harmful slanderous lies about marijuana. All those lies have long since destroyed my trust in CNN, Facebook & The Washington Post as legitimate sources of factual information. I wouldn't even trust them to report the scores of yesterday's baseball games accurately, let alone important and influential scientific information about the fate of our planet's atmosphere. It doesn't make a difference if they were circulating the lies about marijuana out of malice or ignorance, they can't be trusted either way. Who knows what kind of fantastic cancer medications might be currently available if it hadn't been for the "public services" provided by all of the same people who are currently insisting that their version of the climate change prophecy is the one and only true one. If those people are acting in the public's interest then why have they been standing in the way of legitimate medical marijuana research for half a century? If they respect science so much then why prevent potentially valuable medical marijuana research?
My own opinions on the topic of climate change have been developed from going over the numbers myself, I don't need to bother going on at length boring your with the magnificent story of my own personal intellectual involvement in the field of atmospheric science because I could just as easily be lying about that to pose as an authaority figure, everything that goes into forming my opinions on this topic can be looked up in refereed and reviewed academic sources which you can verify on your own. Here is what I can tell you:
The current rate of CO2 accumulation in this planet's atmosphere is roughly 3ppm annually, the current amount of CO2 is roughly 420ppm and estimates of historical CO2 levels in our atmosphere as well as the fossil record all show that primate life on this planet has thrived with atmospheric CO2 levels in excess of 1000ppm so climate change doesn't seem to be as pressing a problem to me as the pothead & marijuana haters in the mainstream press want us all to believe it is. Jacob Rothschild lent Gretchen Thunderburp a fancy yacht so she could come to American and promote all those ideas, but the guy owns massive vineyards in California in the middle of prime redwood country. If he was really concerned about climate change wouldn't he be using his own means to sequester enormous amounts of atmospheric CO2 by growing massive trees on his property in California instead of growing grapes for the wine trade? The glass packaging and transportation involved in the wine business make it a very CO2 intensive form of commerce, especially compared to other agricultural industries. I wonder if the guy wasn't more interested in cozying up to cute Swedish high school girls than he was in he future of our environment.
Climate change is an interesting topic in the context of landraces preservation, especially the part about CO2 levels. All of the landraces developed in past environments with less CO2, so how is the additional CO2 they're getting now affecting them, what genetic changes are occurring as a result? Is preservation of regional outdoor species of cannabis even possible in the context of climate change if the varieties themselves are all bound to be evolving rapidly to meet new conditions?
The lack of intellectual curiosity Ive witnessed in discussions about climate change over the years are probably part of why it doesn't bother me when our amigo at The Indian Landrace Exchange does stuff like rejecting the indica-sativa duality in search of a better explanation for observed reality. Who knows, maybe he is the next Alfred Wegener.

 

[Storm Shadow]

minimal faith in dudes selling REAL landrace genetics pure...sorry just the way it is bro bro...tons of talk .... much more "MEH" to show

 

[Rosomah]

Can you guys roll one and chill a bit?


Examples of familiar crops for which direct living ancestors are believed (some-times debatably) to be extinct include avocado (Persea americana), cassava (Manihot esculenta), corn (maize; Zea mays), eggplant (Solanum melongena), European plum (Prunus domestica), lemongrass (Cymbopogon citratus) , onion(Allium cepa), peanut (Arachis hypogaea), rice (Oryza sativa, O. glaberrima) and safflower (Carthamus tinctorius).

"Many cultivated plants of Cannabis are “land races”—populations domesticated in a locale, typically selected over long periods by unconscious (non-planned, unde- liberate) selection by traditional farmers, usually adapted to local stresses, and often much more variable than modern cultivars."


Variability is not desired in modern farming, but essential for breeding. That said i am doing experimental thesis in field of agronomy/horticulture. If i write my disposition the right way i will be able to grow 10-20 populations and test for THC/CBD, terpenes. Wish me luck

 

[ngakpa]

they also don't believe in climate change. Does your certainty about climate change blah blah

CLIMATE CHANGE DENIAL

blah blah blah

blah blah our amigo at The Indian Landrace Exchange

thanks for clearing that up

 

[ngakpa]

Variability is not desired in modern farming, but essential for breeding.

Yes, although another way of saying that is "variability is essential for modern farming"

best of luck with the research, sounds awesome!

 

[Rosomah]

Thanks, might need your help. Just have to get to 50 post so i can pm you

 

[ngakpa]

Thanks, might need your help. Just have to get to 50 post so i can pm you

You know you can just email me or contact me via either of the websites, right?

 

[Rosomah]

omg i am such a boomer

 

[Rurumo]

You know you can just email me or contact me via either of the websites, right?

Thank you for starting this thread. Seeing it motivated me to join this forum, though I've lurked here for information for at least a decade. I grew up enjoying and outdoor growing landrace cannabis in the 1980s, and I've long been disturbed by the direction taken by most seedbanks over the past 30 years. So few banks even offer landrace genetics anymore-The Real Seed Co, ACE, SOA...honestly, I can't think of any others offhand.

One of the biggest problems I see is that now have 2 generations of cannabis aficionados, 99% of who have never even experienced a true landrace. The majority of these people have never even tried a pure sativa. So the majority of the seed market simply doesn't know what they are missing. It's not their fault, but their ignorance is a driving factor behind this loss of genetic diversity. American popular culture promotes the stupefying "couchlock" effect as something that is desirable. Greedy fly-by-night seed companies and "breeders" hammer out new "strains" constantly, by simply smashing together whatever are the current popular hybrids, with no plan other than making money-the hybrid seed racket is the modern cannabis goldrush. Anyone who has bred cannabis on any scale knows that charging $100+ dollars for a 5 pack of hybrid seeds is pure exploitation. Not only that, but even the original popular hybrid strains don't even exist anymore-Blueberry is a great example: the "blueberry" strains that are offered now, even by DJ Short himself are totally inferior to the Blueberry I had in my youth, and that's not just the rose colored glasses of age, MOST of us "oldtimers" will say the same thing.

Modern hybrid cannabis is inferior in every way except for THC level than it was in the 1990s-the difference now is, the high THC plants are in more people's hands due to state by state legalization and medical laws. I smoked hybrid cannabis that was every bit as potent in the 1990s as the most potent strain I've had today, however, modern hybrids have lost the "character" they once had, and in many cases, such as blueberry, the terpene profile that they were once known for. Modern hybrid genetics has been "dumbed down" and homogenized to the point where I have no idea why anyone would choose one of these garbage strains over another, it's all high production generic weed, imo. I think we need to all do our part and introduce people we know to these landraces. Millenials and Gen Z (in general, there are always a few individuals who go against the grain) have bought into the scam of modern hybrid cannabis 100%, and personally experiencing landraces is the only thing that will change their minds. I'll never forget the first time a long time smoker friend of mine tried some of my Malawi Gold, it was almost a religious experience for him-the effects are so profoundly different from hybrids you can't even compare the two.

Sorry for this rambling post, I'm sure there are many people in their 40s-70s+ that see this thread for the first time and realize there are still a few people of class and distinction left in the world! I'm a legal medical grower in my state and I plan on getting licensed to increase the size of my grow this year-it will still be small scale, but I'll have the room I need to grow out a lot of males and females so I'd like to do my part to preserve at least one landrace strain. These strains are a gift handed down to us by generations of our ancestors, and there is a very real possibility that most of them will go extinct in our lifetimes. American corporate monoculture is polluting every corner of the globe where these landraces are still grown, and it is a SAD sad state of affairs when the local farmers think that American/European hybrid seeds are better simply because they are new and different than what they are used to. The same loss of diversity what we are seeing in our traditional food crops due to GMO monoculture is happening in the developing world to our landrace cannabis heritage, and only a concerted effort will save these treasures.