DIY Nutrients formulations, recipes, chemistry etc.

[glow]

Isopropanol is used for a nifty old trick: Mix it with a gelling or thickening agent (xanthan gum is the correct name, xanthum is a frequently used misnomer) will allow you to disperse it evenly in water so that it won't clump but result in a homogeneous gel or thick liquid. It is the same with making fondue where you mix the maize starch with some Kirsch before adding it to the white wine and ultimately the cheese. Try it with some cheap ingredients: strong booze, wheat flour, and water (cold water works a lot better than hot one) !

The ingredients listed above look very funny (funny like a joke for nerds... me, I actually had to giggle) but would partially explain the high costs. On the other hand, some might be derived by hydrolysing wood (which BTW is very cheap), others are likely pretty useless (especially in hydro) or only useful alone (again especially in hydro), and last but not least the composition of the mentioned carbohydrates doesn't make too much sense.
Should they have changed the recipe mentioned by Glow, chances are very low that it's even close to the two listed above. But that's just my opinion...

PS Upsss... too slow with posting

PPS They should at least use some alcohol which is better plant available, such as methanol, ethanol, or even glycerol. Doesn't disturb at low enough amounts and might even be used as second 'carbon' source by microbes and plants alike.

Yeah sad isn't it that a company are that unethical they dump some sugar in a bottle, thicken it with Xanthan gum (and yes they use the misnomer hence the formula using Xanthum gum) and call it Carboload then mislabel it but then again what more can you expect from a company that consists of one ex porn star and a current Pedophile? And sadly the formula isn't a joke (albeit a complete joke) - I have all the original AN manufacturer direct formulas used in Australia - now relabeled as Cyco nutrients (haha now there's a whole nother story involving rip offs and bikie stand overs all leading to me getting the formulas - industry karma I guess..

 

[glow]

Well, I am new to Jacks. My old nutrient line up was
-Botanicare CALMAG+
-SVA/SVB base
-SBA/SBB base
-AN Bud blood
-AN Carboload
-AN B-52
-AN Big Bud
-AN Overdrive
-phosphoload (low dose)
-hygrozyme
-orca mychorizi
-Pro Silicate
and Bloombastic

I get rock solid beautiful nugs. I am hoping I can achieve a comparable product with the jacks. I plan on using agsil16 for silica, but what would you suggest to replace some of the other items, if even necessary.

Thanks for you time.

Who would have thought it took that many additives to grow a plant hey? and Pload is pure evil (paclobutrazol and long banned Alar). Tell me all about your environment. Environment is king! Big yields don't come in bottles and sure as not the bottles you are using.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

Who would have thought it took that many additives to grow a plant hey? and Pload is pure evil (paclobutrazol and long banned Alar). Tell me all about your environment. Environment is king! Big yields don't come in bottles and sure as not the bottles you are using.

i think the answer is in the products. whats in them that isnt in jacks other than triancontonol. if you pload your plants you should realize, its going to be a short amount of time before you cant. i dont know of any research saying you need silica but you can use it with jacks if you want. just get agrisil16 cheap as shit.
what is your end npk aftter adding all that stuff? just match that with jacks if you like it.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

Thanks for all the great information guys. What do you think would be a good diy additive to jacks pro/ calnit

nothing. aand if you arent sure how to answer that yourself my guess is that adding will subtract from your results. not trying to be a snoot but just giving you the real info. people looking to "add" to a complete profile are missing the point. the point is use a balanced complete ratio and let your environment and culture do the rest. if you have something lacking in your results and jacks 321 is what youre feeding, you wont gain it by simply adding some other nutrients. if youre not understanding the nute requirements in your plants in terms of target npk and micros then chances are youll fuck up a good thing by not calculating your end npk.
just grab the already made wheel of the shelf and hit the road running. youll see.

 

[glow]

i think the answer is in the products. whats in them that isnt in jacks other than triancontonol. if you pload your plants you should realize, its going to be a short amount of time before you cant. i dont know of any research saying you need silica but you can use it with jacks if you want. just get agrisil16 cheap as shit.
what is your end npk aftter adding all that stuff? just match that with jacks if you like it.

There's absolutely no doubt today about the benefits of Si in hydroponics - probably about a 100 or more research papers have demonstrated this. The point though being is that AWDTERROR's nutrient and additive regime is like a hydro store exploded in his grow room (don't believe the hype) and if he were to work out the NPK ratios he'd find out he is doing more harm than good using this regime. AWDTERROR my advice is get off of grow forums and start reading academic and other quality sites (referenced) that provide sound science based information about plant nutrition.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

There's absolutely no doubt today about the benefits of Si in hydroponics - probably about a 100 or more research papers have demonstrated this. The point though being is that AWDTERROR's nutrient and additive regime is like a hydro store exploded in his grow room (don't believe the hype) and if he were to work out the NPK ratios he'd find out he is doing more harm than good using this regime. AWDTERROR my advice is get off of grow forums and start reading academic and other quality sites (referenced) that provide sound science based information about plant nutrition.

im aware of the research but im also aware of the difference being minimal in most situations ive done. ive done runs with and without and havent seen huge differences. ive questioned it and gone back after reading more but ive also not seen much change in growth health etc. ill look into it again.

 

[plastochron]

Yeah sad isn't it that a company are that unethical they dump some sugar in a bottle, thicken it with Xanthan gum (and yes they use the misnomer hence the formula using Xanthum gum) and call it Carboload then mislabel it but then again what more can you expect from a company that consists of one ex porn star and a current Pedophile? And sadly the formula isn't a joke (albeit a complete joke) - I have all the original AN manufacturer direct formulas used in Australia - now relabeled as Cyco nutrients (haha now there's a whole nother story involving rip offs and bikie stand overs all leading to me getting the formulas - industry karma I guess..

let's see some more of those AN/Cyco formulas... particularly thinking stiky and uptake, though rhyzofuel and zyme would be interesting to see as well. please and thank you.

 

[AWDTERROR]

Glow. I hear you on the paclonutrazol , I am in the process of working it out as we speak.
I noticed a lot of positives things when I started to use the Silica so that I will for sure be using in the new mix. My 40kw location is always between 78-81 degrees and 40-55 RH all adjusta wings. I have a 16kw location that I undershot the AC needs on and its holding between 81-87 degrees but seems to be running fine. Its a new test room though. I am very new to Jacks, this is my first run on it.
I am completely with you on the fact that all those additives are throwing the npk ratios out of wak, however I have been consistently yielding between 1.4-1.75/1000w so I haven't made any changes.
What forums are you talking about glow.

I hear your guys leave the jacks alone.
I guess I will start adding the 1g/gal of Epson salt.
I wasn't doing that.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Most of us don't add epsom. Seriously keep it as simple as possible.

 

[Only Ornamental]

Epsom salt is not an additive, it's a fertiliser or at least a fertiliser ingredient aka mineral nutrient .
Me, I'm not talking about adding nutrients to a nutrient mix (unless the mix is not balanced to your or rather the plants likings) but adding stuff which isn't a nutrient in sensu stricto.

Wouldn't it be helpful to clearly distinguish between additives and additional fertilisers? In my understanding (which is not in line with the hydro industry and canna-advertisements), an additive adds to a fertiliser what can not be added by changing the inorganic nutrient levels whereas an additional fertiliser changes the inorganic nutrient composition.
In other words, a PK booster for example is a fertiliser (which is in line with the fertiliser guideline by the European Commission) whereas plant hormones, PGRs, and plant metabolites are additives (e.g. agrochemicals, sometimes 'organic' fertilisers like amino acids which may be a part of both worlds).
Such additives may or may not result in additional effects depending on which effects are desired and/or how healthy or sick the plants are. Too bad that, unless you're Glow or an employee at a fertiliser company, you usually don't know what's in your 'additive' (likely, there's often both inside) and hence have no real chance to calculate how the nutrient (i.e. essential inorganic minerals) composition is changed. Certain regulations require to list NPK, others also secondary and/or trace minerals and you might be able to adjust basic inputs (but then, the 'addition' is annihilated).
IMHO, additives can be very useful. If this would be the case with perfectly growing plants under perfectly dialled in conditions I do not know but they help with plants under more natural and/or suboptimal conditions as well as plants under stresses (heat, drought, pathogens etc.). Here, you may not just put a cup of every additive onto your plants on a weekly schedule but have to add the right things at the right concentration and at the right time. As an example, it may even be contra-productive to apply jasmonic acid to a plant attacked by biotrophic pathogens.
And that's why I said that it depends on your aims which additive you probably could add.

 

[AWDTERROR]

SecondAttempt, Ya I was pretty sure jacks 5-12-26 had enough in it. I don't see any Mg def so I haven't been adding it. Trying to simplify everything. After this run I am going full jacks.
Would you guys suggest triacontonol. If so at what dosage(ppm). Foliar or fed with nutrients.?

Only ornamental, Thanks so much for the plethora of information.
I have never been a fan of these bottled nutrients, I have been sure for a long time that my npk ratios are messed up do to them not disclosing the full contents.

I was thinking
jacks 5-12-26

Calnit 15-0-0

MKP/mono potassium phosphate for PK boost

triacontonol

molasses

Let me know if you think any of that should go.
Thanks again.

 

[atticflowers]

This is the post i was looking for thank the plant GODs i found it, i was thinkin the same thing cuz u can do the samething for aquarium planted tanks an its seemed the same to me.

 

[glow]

SecondAttempt, Ya I was pretty sure jacks 5-12-26 had enough in it. I don't see any Mg def so I haven't been adding it. Trying to simplify everything. After this run I am going full jacks.
Would you guys suggest triacontonol. If so at what dosage(ppm). Foliar or fed with nutrients.?

Only ornamental, Thanks so much for the plethora of information.
I have never been a fan of these bottled nutrients, I have been sure for a long time that my npk ratios are messed up do to them not disclosing the full contents.

I was thinking
jacks 5-12-26

Calnit 15-0-0

MKP/mono potassium phosphate for PK boost

triacontonol

molasses

Let me know if you think any of that should go.
Thanks again.

Okay AWDTERROR (wish that were shorter) I'm reading between the lines here because the fact that you are using so many additives worries me re your understanding of the mineral nutrition requirements of higher plants. One of the most important steps you can take if mixing your own nutes is to have the tank mix lab analyzed due to discrepancies between what is listed on the raw fert bags and what is actually present. So when you have made a tank mix I'd recommend having it tested at JR Peters Lab http://www.jrpeters.com/Lab-Services/Testing-Services/Nutritional.html - tests are cheap and can save you a world of grief --- for example I was doing some consultancy to a grower recently and what his lab analysis came back with compared to theoretical values (what should have been there) were miles off. You need to run the Fertilizer Analysis test at $44 a sample which covers pH, Soluble Salts, Total Alkalinity, Total Nitrogen, Nitrate Nitrogen, Ammonium Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium, Sulfur, Iron, Manganese, Copper, Boron, Zinc, Molybdenum, Aluminum, Sodium, Chlorides.

So the next thing is that when you have this test in your hands do you know what you are looking at?

 

[glow]

Oh yeah and ditch adding glucose to the tank. You can do a lot better.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

yeah id say the mag/sul is not necessary. i was told it was needed by the folks who introduced me to the nutrient line up. then i met others who pointed out that the jacks is replacing a very similar product that the 321 was formulated for.
it was a 5-11-26 by another company and had half the mag/sul of jacks. im on my way out the door and am regurgitating from memory but hl45 pointed this out to me and said he used an equal parts by volume mix of jacks and calnit. when i get home ill figure it out and post the line ups ratios.
theres a new mix im investigating. its using two slightly different blends from jacks. it can be run from a single concentrate stock on a single doser and is nutritionally complete enough to run from clone to harvest.

 

[glow]

yeah id say the mag/sul is not necessary. i was told it was needed by the folks who introduced me to the nutrient line up. then i met others who pointed out that the jacks is replacing a very similar product that the 321 was formulated for.
it was a 5-11-26 by another company and had half the mag/sul of jacks. im on my way out the door and am regurgitating from memory but hl45 pointed this out to me and said he used an equal parts by volume mix of jacks and calnit. when i get home ill figure it out and post the line ups ratios.
theres a new mix im investigating. its using two slightly different blends from jacks. it can be run from a single concentrate stock on a single doser and is nutritionally complete enough to run from clone to harvest.

Not so long ago in the US whenever anyone had a problem with their grow other growers would straight away say hit her with epsom salts. These days it tends to be more hit her with cal mag. The creation and circulation of Myths is sort of weird to watch.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

That's because it's one of the first expressions visually recognizeable deficiencies we see when under fed and when other problems cause imbalances. When using a nutritionally complete profile you shouldn't correct by unbalancing feed ratios by slamming it with the first mineral you see showing it. It's a wY to sell a bottle of cal mag. Low oxygen, low temps, overwatering, pests pathogens all show up as either calcium and or mag deficiency. It can't uptake under these errors or in the wrong ph.
First look at those factors and then look at runoff to see if raising or lowering feed could be helpful. If you are using any decent plain one part salt or two part liquid designed for cannabis your chasing the rabbit down the wrong hole to shift your entire feed ratio to correct it.

This is the reason for the bad advise in my opinion and experience. Cal mag is super cheap to make thus a very profitable bottle to market to cash flush but untrained nurserymen. Gotta an expensive problem? 100 bucks for 29 cents worth of salt will solve it temporarily. It's a solid business plan if your trying to divert some of these growers excess profits into your own pockets.

 

[glow]

That's because it's one of the first expressions visually recognizeable deficiencies we see when under fed and when other problems cause imbalances. When using a nutritionally complete profile you shouldn't correct by unbalancing feed ratios by slamming it with the first mineral you see showing it. It's a wY to sell a bottle of cal mag. Low oxygen, low temps, overwatering, pests pathogens all show up as either calcium and or mag deficiency. It can't uptake under these errors or in the wrong ph.
First look at those factors and then look at runoff to see if raising or lowering feed could be helpful. If you are using any decent plain one part salt or two part liquid designed for cannabis your chasing the rabbit down the wrong hole to shift your entire feed ratio to correct it.

This is the reason for the bad advise in my opinion and experience. Cal mag is super cheap to make thus a very profitable bottle to market to cash flush but untrained nurserymen. Gotta an expensive problem? 100 bucks for 29 cents worth of salt will solve it temporarily. It's a solid business plan if your trying to divert some of these growers excess profits into your own pockets.

Indeed - I actually think that the hydro industry has possibly created more myths than any other - they even make the tobacco industry look okay. Although to be fair with the multi billion organics industry and the just as loaded alternative health supplements industry in the running there may be a close tie. This said organics and health supplements are facing more and more regulations in many countries while the hydro cow boys run wild.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

yes to all points.

 

[AWDTERROR]

Glow, The fertilizer analysis you just send them a sample of your reservoir mixed, correct?
That's a really good idea. I understand the ratios a bit but definitely not enough. I can have it sent in and post the results here if you guys are willing to look it over.
Just so its known I have been using the jacks @ 1/.67 ratio or 360ppm jacks / 240ppm calnit. I have read many different mixes what do you think is the best.

Xxxst8edgexxx very interested in that single concentration stock solution. Would love to hear more. is the calnit included in that single concentration.

I spend thousands a month on nutrients I'm so exited to see the hydro guys face when I say I'm all good on nutrients this time.
Such a great thread.