Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?
- Thread starter k33ftr33z
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If you read the thread you will find reference to allowing leafing. 35 years experience gives a lot of time for methodology trial and error. Maybe you missed the plants I posted. Are you producing 10oz plants in 32" with 40wpsf.
This thread is for discussion of a technique. No one is promoting it outside of this thread that I know of. In fact if you read my posts I began the thread stressing numerous times that this fits my strategy and may not fit another. If you take a look at my results and the posters with enough curiosity and unbiased approach to try it you cannot help but be impressed. See LifeLess pics.
Yes I happen to have done many cycles leafy and you know what, yield is roughly 50% better this way but I hesitate to promote that figure. I hesitate to promote this technique to anyone. Those who accept the risk, reap the gain. Both to knowledge and likely yield. You can be sure I have no patience for reduced yields so I do it the way that benefits the bottom line.
Again...ah well....
No shade...no problem.
Thank you for sharing this! I know I said it before, but I want to thank you again. This confirms something I swear I noticed before in my plants, but was too afraid to discuss because its a "no no".
Keep sharing and I will keep listening.
Tropic
Member
... There are no stupid questions mate... maybe this technique is best suited for hydro/coco because it requires vigorous growth to compensate the loss of leaves? So asking if it works in soil is legitimate, after all we're in the hydro forum and as someone already pointed out maybe this should be stickied in a more general forum (ie. Growers' forum). However LifeLess seems to be growing in soil? Or is that coco/perlite? His results speak for themselves, anyways... in the past I've always advocated leaving fans on (just tucking them when they shade some part), but this thread has made me want to try something different next time I go indoors.
As far as threads about defoliation, there may not be many but there are MANY people practicing. Both of my parents are from the old school. Both are almost 80 years old. Both grew up in very rural areas where their families had large gardens, animals, etc.
I was over at my parents house this weekend discussing this technique, because it reminded me of how my parents garden some of their plants. My mom and dad were like, "we have been doing that forever. It promotes focused growth and keeps the plant healthy and vigor." My parents live in the mountains and have a very sizable garden (actually gardens). You should see all their LST work! Strings going everywhere. They are HEAVY defoliators and LSTers! I envy their gardens.
FYI, all outdoor.
I was over at my parents house this weekend discussing this technique, because it reminded me of how my parents garden some of their plants. My mom and dad were like, "we have been doing that forever. It promotes focused growth and keeps the plant healthy and vigor." My parents live in the mountains and have a very sizable garden (actually gardens). You should see all their LST work! Strings going everywhere. They are HEAVY defoliators and LSTers! I envy their gardens.
FYI, all outdoor.
I came into this thread believing there's no way this increases yield, but after reading the full thread, and thinking more about it, my opinion has changed some. I'm somewhere in the middle. I wont outright say it doesn't work, but I wont accept it as fact since I have never done it myself. If that's not enough for you, then tough cookies.
Chocolate Chip please
Try this on an isolated plant in your garden if you have a bit of extra space to share. There is a picture in my garden of a 7oz plant in 5 gallons of Promix. Complete defoliation on the 1st day of flower. Again it's not for all but you will believe.
Maybe it works better as part of the greater whole - the scrog training.
K33ftr33z, how are you starting these babies out as far as the initial pruning? It looks like you are cutting back to 4 nodes and then again? You have such great coverage on your screen.
You probably already said this, but how many weeks total are you in veg for one plant per 32"x32"?
I'm trying this because I have to do something for circulation with an overgrown string trellis. (Had to wait for the AC). It is scary but - when you see all those lower bud sites suddenly in full light it makes sense. I wouldn't have had the courage if I wasn't more frightened of losing all of it from mildew from the overcrowding. A lot easier to pull leaves than snip branches.
Grapeman's comment is really reassuring.
K33ftr33z, how are you starting these babies out as far as the initial pruning? It looks like you are cutting back to 4 nodes and then again? You have such great coverage on your screen.
You probably already said this, but how many weeks total are you in veg for one plant per 32"x32"?
I'm trying this because I have to do something for circulation with an overgrown string trellis. (Had to wait for the AC). It is scary but - when you see all those lower bud sites suddenly in full light it makes sense. I wouldn't have had the courage if I wasn't more frightened of losing all of it from mildew from the overcrowding. A lot easier to pull leaves than snip branches.
Grapeman's comment is really reassuring.
Chocolate Chip please
Try this on an isolated plant in your garden if you have a bit of extra space to share. There is a picture in my garden of a 7oz plant in 5 gallons of Promix. Complete defoliation on the 1st day of flower. Again it's not for all but you will believe.
Pff Chocolate Chip. I prefer Oatmeal Raisins. Its all you'll get from me
.I looked at your albums, but you have so many. I have no clue where to look to see the pictures.
I think its a bit too late for me to give this a go. Im 21 days into flowering now. I do think Ill try this with a couple of clones in the future, and see how things turn out.
Pff Chocolate Chip. I prefer Oatmeal Raisins. Its all you'll get from me
I looked at your albums, but you have so many. I have no clue where to look to see the pictures.
I think its a bit too late for me to give this a go. Im 21 days into flowering now. I do think Ill try this with a couple of clones in the future, and see how things turn out.
This gal was completely defoliated at the beginning of flower. Stripped down naked in a 5 gallon container with ProMix. I still use that 3x3 Hydrohut mini till this day. She rendered 7oz's of some nice bud. I never cloned so she's with the canna Gods now. She was never topped. Just pinched and stripped numerous times.
You can't go wrong with oatmeal.
Add some raisins and dried cranberry and its heaven.
superbolan
Active member
Go ahead and do one dave, you'll see results quickly as i did. I've been growing thirty years and learned something , surprised the hell out of me how quickly the defoliated plant started to increase bud growth past the un-defoliated ones, Its more than a light thing . Of this I am convinced, Could be a redistribution of auxins or just a survival thing but they definitely respond with more and faster bud growth
“I think its a bit too late for me to give this a go. Im 21 days into flowering now. I do think Ill try this with a couple of clones in the future, and see how things turn out.”
hi, dave!
I've been defoliating at 21 days into flower since this thread started. End of stretch.
The first one was done on 5-24 and I have been doing one per week since as each plant reaches 21 days in flower.
I have been defoliating 7 days before harvest for years, but since this thread began I have stripped them at 2, and 3 weeks before harvest for effect.
I harvested the 3 week plant 9 days ago and it produced 12.35 oz's dry. How much was due to defoliating I can't say, but it obviously didn't hurt yield.
All plants are budding up nicely and I am confident that, at the very least, I will not hurt yield.
As I have been growing this same cut for 7 years without mothers I feel that I have a very strong observational platform.
I think that there is a lot more going on here than simply lighting.
Perhaps we are seeing hormonal responses at work as well.
I will be whacking the first plant stripped at 21 days flower in 2 weeks. I'll put some more photos up then.
For me, this is no longer theoretical. Your arguments are sound and make good sense. And so are everyone else's that have spoken against this. But you'll notice all arguments against are from people who have not tried it.
Good luck, d9
hi, dave!
I've been defoliating at 21 days into flower since this thread started. End of stretch.
The first one was done on 5-24 and I have been doing one per week since as each plant reaches 21 days in flower.
I have been defoliating 7 days before harvest for years, but since this thread began I have stripped them at 2, and 3 weeks before harvest for effect.
I harvested the 3 week plant 9 days ago and it produced 12.35 oz's dry. How much was due to defoliating I can't say, but it obviously didn't hurt yield.
All plants are budding up nicely and I am confident that, at the very least, I will not hurt yield.
As I have been growing this same cut for 7 years without mothers I feel that I have a very strong observational platform.
I think that there is a lot more going on here than simply lighting.
Perhaps we are seeing hormonal responses at work as well.
I will be whacking the first plant stripped at 21 days flower in 2 weeks. I'll put some more photos up then.
For me, this is no longer theoretical. Your arguments are sound and make good sense. And so are everyone else's that have spoken against this. But you'll notice all arguments against are from people who have not tried it.
Good luck, d9
C
Carl Carlson
I also just yesterday did the 21 day removal for the first time. Blue Dream plants. Will report back. Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences.
I dont think defoliating is the key to success...
I think proper removal during the proper times will benefit the plant, i dont think robbing the plant of its resources after it spent its entire life creating these resources is the most logical idea, but hey, to each there own..
Pic 1 -- the mature buds are about on Day 50 of 70 in the picture. Trimmed all lower growth before flip, and after stretch. They are about 5 feet tall from the top of the bucket so of course trimming is mandatory.
Pic 2 -- OG kush -- see that flavor?? you can thank those leaves that begin to turn colors during flush..
Pic 3 -- 20 days veg, 13 of bloom. Wont be doing much leaf removal from this bitch, just the stretchy popcorn buds that should ALWAYS be removed after stretch.
Pic 4 -- What else can I say?? Lots of foliage, big ass buds.
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I do agree with this to an extent, but I also disagree to an extent as well... I believe a good median should be found and I dont think robbing your plant from everything is quite the "median" i'm referring to.
I think proper removal during the proper times will benefit the plant, i dont think robbing the plant of its resources after it spent its entire life creating these resources is the most logical idea, but hey, to each there own..
Pic 1 -- the mature buds are about on Day 50 of 70 in the picture. Trimmed all lower growth before flip, and after stretch. They are about 5 feet tall from the top of the bucket so of course trimming is mandatory.
Pic 2 -- OG kush -- see that flavor?? you can thank those leaves that begin to turn colors during flush..
Pic 3 -- 20 days veg, 13 of bloom. Wont be doing much leaf removal from this bitch, just the stretchy popcorn buds that should ALWAYS be removed after stretch.
Pic 4 -- What else can I say?? Lots of foliage, big ass buds.
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I do agree with this to an extent, but I also disagree to an extent as well... I believe a good median should be found and I dont think robbing your plant from everything is quite the "median" i'm referring to.
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jrosek
It is best to try this method on one plant first... do not go over board people!!
Some strains do not react well at all to stripping... I have found that out of the dozens of strains i have stripped that sativa's tend to not respond well to stripping.
Any plant that does not have a hi leaf to bud ratio seems to decrease bud size and density.. i believe this is do to the bud being more dependent on the larger fans that are at the node and branch. if you have played with different strains you will know what im trying to explain...
in short... bushy leafy indica dom strains respond the best to stripping, however carefull planning is a must be before done.
Sativa dom plants with very little leaf on bud growth suffer more than not, meaning, slower growth, longer finishing times, etc...
just be carefull with your ladies people!!!!! this is not a fool proof method and must be experimented with before a full attempt at stripping or leaf removal training..
for the strains that do respond well to this method... it is simply the only way to fly!
good luck all!
Some strains do not react well at all to stripping... I have found that out of the dozens of strains i have stripped that sativa's tend to not respond well to stripping.
Any plant that does not have a hi leaf to bud ratio seems to decrease bud size and density.. i believe this is do to the bud being more dependent on the larger fans that are at the node and branch. if you have played with different strains you will know what im trying to explain...
in short... bushy leafy indica dom strains respond the best to stripping, however carefull planning is a must be before done.
Sativa dom plants with very little leaf on bud growth suffer more than not, meaning, slower growth, longer finishing times, etc...
just be carefull with your ladies people!!!!! this is not a fool proof method and must be experimented with before a full attempt at stripping or leaf removal training..
for the strains that do respond well to this method... it is simply the only way to fly!
good luck all!
Jroskek, your post is a great one. It really expands on what I thought in my long post on the 20th.
I wondered if the remaining bud leaves can perform as adequately as the larger fan leaves that are removed during defoliation, and you have answered it quite well. Thank you.
Unfortunately, I dont really like Indica dominant plants. Im a Sativa lover myself, and most of the plants I grow are Sativa or Sativa Hybrids.
Although, I have 5 Cannacopia C99 x Deep Chunks in flower right now, and they would be my best candidates to attempt this. But, OP has said it shouldn't be attempted on plants that are unaccustomed to this, so It'll have to wait until my clones are ready to be flowered.
SuperBolan, Delta, and others you've given me hope this does work. Hopefully, I can too say that it really increases yield in the future. Im more than man enough to admit when I am wrong.
I also had a realization just a bit ago. I was always of the mindset "Mother Nature knows best." And well, I still believe this to this day, but we are not growing our plants in Nature. Were growing indoors, where the environment is completely different.
Our plants are no longer getting the vast amount of sunlight that our outdoor plants receive. Our plants outdoors are getting light from just about every direction, at a greater intensity, and no doubt much better light penetration. They can really put all those lower & middle fan leaves to use, but indoors were not so lucky. Their effectiveness is greatly reduced when there is a dense canopy overhead.
I watched a plant documentary awhile back, and they were in a forest that had a very dense canopy, and the host was discussing how plants grow underneath the canopy near ground level. Many of the plants he talked about developed new techniques of capturing every last bit of light that reaches them. While others such as saplings will often grow to a short height, and then just die out unless an older, and much larger tree actually dies and falls over allowing more light to reach the lower canopy.
The same thing pretty much applies indoors for us. If those lower fan leaves or bud leaves dont get much light, then yield is substantially reduced as our buds just dont get the resources they need to reach full potential.
I seem to be more and more making a case for this working with each new post I make in this thread. Isn't that crazy, and Im a skeptic!
Definitely not a stupid question, and not the first to ask. This is about training plants in crowded conditions to balance bud development. It does not matter the grow media. All of this happens above ground.
I like your spirit, bro. And I can assure you it is possible to get more than 4 or 6 oz out of one plant and a 400w. That setup is a similar footprint to one of my plants.
Very nice setup. What is the yield on those individuals.
Most do not have the space to commit for a real side by side. More than likely you will get a cycle by cycle comparison. Those who are trying this have an idea of their past yields and visual bud development. They can assess this technique based on that. I'd like to do a side by side but I'm already into this a couple of decades. I need no convincing beside seeing a recent group get leafy by my own laziness and though top nugs look slightly more impressive overall yield is not up to par.
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