Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?
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Big plant strategy
Big plant strategy
On the left is the general structure and condition on a new bud placement. On the right is result after a few weeks. The logical formula for veg time is equal to the bud time. A system based on this replacement formula over a 8-10 week span will yield the largest plants. In states that limit your plant count, this is the obvious strategy for maximizing one's compliant yield. Allowing 8-10 weeks of veg produces some amazing branching and siting if defoliation is ruthlessly practiced.
Growers should be patient with their veg cycle. Once you place a candidate in bud there is no turning back. It better be built or you will have a disappointing yield. My candidates have more than a dozen well developed branches each with many sites and sub-branching.
While defoliation can be practiced in any type of grow arrangement I will confine my focus to large plants getting plenty of veg time. I consider veg time to be the most crucial part of growing. Take it seriously to get the big yields shown in the gallery. Fully one pound plants can be grown in 32" spacing and height. Intensive defoliation and training in veg is how this is accomplished. The veg candidate will get weekly defoliations. Budding plants get it bi-weekly. I like to allow leaves to emerge and size up between defol sessions in the bud tunnel.
Big plant strategy
On the left is the general structure and condition on a new bud placement. On the right is result after a few weeks. The logical formula for veg time is equal to the bud time. A system based on this replacement formula over a 8-10 week span will yield the largest plants. In states that limit your plant count, this is the obvious strategy for maximizing one's compliant yield. Allowing 8-10 weeks of veg produces some amazing branching and siting if defoliation is ruthlessly practiced.
Growers should be patient with their veg cycle. Once you place a candidate in bud there is no turning back. It better be built or you will have a disappointing yield. My candidates have more than a dozen well developed branches each with many sites and sub-branching.
While defoliation can be practiced in any type of grow arrangement I will confine my focus to large plants getting plenty of veg time. I consider veg time to be the most crucial part of growing. Take it seriously to get the big yields shown in the gallery. Fully one pound plants can be grown in 32" spacing and height. Intensive defoliation and training in veg is how this is accomplished. The veg candidate will get weekly defoliations. Budding plants get it bi-weekly. I like to allow leaves to emerge and size up between defol sessions in the bud tunnel.
The veg unit is 18 plants on 12" centering all using only a single 250w hps. No more wattage is necessary to get full development. Defoliation is necessary to accommodate this many plants under a single light for 2 months. The resulting branching and noding is exacly the kind of structure desired to continue the method through budding.
G
guest8905
it works well to remove the actual bud sites on lower branches but leaving the fan leaf.
so you get no larf but still the benefit of the solar panel called a sun leaf
so you get no larf but still the benefit of the solar panel called a sun leaf
grassott's dad
Member
On the left is the general structure and condition on a new bud placement. On the right is result after a few weeks. The logical formula for veg time is equal to the bud time. A system based on this replacement formula over a 8-10 week span will yield the largest plants. In states that limit your plant count, this is the obvious strategy for maximizing one's compliant yield. Allowing 8-10 weeks of veg produces some amazing branching and siting if defoliation is ruthlessly practiced.
Growers should be patient with their veg cycle. Once you place a candidate in bud there is no turning back. It better be built or you will have a disappointing yield. My candidates have more than a dozen well developed branches each with many sites and sub-branching.
While defoliation can be practiced in any type of grow arrangement I will confine my focus to large plants getting plenty of veg time. I consider veg time to be the most crucial part of growing. Take it seriously to get the big yields shown in the gallery. Fully one pound plants can be grown in 32" spacing and height. Intensive defoliation and training in veg is how this is accomplished. The veg candidate will get weekly defoliations. Budding plants get it bi-weekly. I like to allow leaves to emerge and size up between defol sessions in the bud tunnel.
Hi Keef. Very informative post as usual. If you're vegging with weak cfl lights in the winter (temps a tad colder than ideal) would you still recommend defoliation?
Uh...actually this whole technique is about preserving those budsites as they are not going to turn out to larf if you defoliate. They will develop into quality bud mostly indistinguishable from the rest of the yield. At the very least, if one is so picky as to sort their tops and bottoms, these bottoms are top grade processing material for wax or other concentrates. So therefore, removing any growth, is severely shortsighted and leading one to diminished usable yields. If indeed you only get larf from bottoms it is still top grade concentrate base. Do not remove any productive growth from your plants. Those leaves are not solar panels but rather sunshades shading out your best yields. Growing buds, not leaves is the mission. See pics for results.
Here is what I just did. I had been feeding with a fairly constant EC and nutrient regimen, and when they plants got near week 3 since 12/12, I noticed the EC climbed for the first time. Read this advice from a spectacular grower who said the increase of EC is a sign of reduced nitrogen intake. Seems to be a sign the stretch is over in a sense. So, I just started off fans at the start of the leaf, trying to imagine how they would block light. I've always thought the explanation that removing leaf allows for more direct sun light to the buds was too simple to be true, but I'm now operating under that mentality. With so much foliage on this acapulco gold X cinderella 99 cross I just decided to cut off anything that was showing signs of suboptimal health or were of a large size or would prevent dirt light penetrating from my vertical bulb.
Before
After
With only a 600w bulb, I'm surprised at the structure of flowers towards the bottom of the plant already and I'm just going on a hunch that I should leave larger fan leafs on towards the bottom for more surface area to absorb the smaller amounts of light. I cut off the nodes towards the very bottom of the plant in veg so I'm going to leave everything else on... except the two flower tips I accidentally cut off.
I'm doing a side-by-side with a mother plant and her clone at the link in my signature with pertaining to how much leaf should be removed and with regards to the age/size/structure of the plant.
When you get to a space that accommodates spreading out those individuals you can splay them, lower the lights accordingly and really watch those bottoms blow up...and the tops too. Creating a net or other support structure is key to training. The plant just isn't designed to stand up straight with all that bud weight. It needs assistance. The idea is to spread them out horizontally and get the light lower. the premium lighting column is only abut 12-16" tall so getting all of the plants production is the plan. Training it into this column yields the best results. Plants want to get tall but that is counter to their benefit. Design grow area to accommodate this spreading.
Great looking plants. Good job.
Next round don't fret about height in veg, just defoliate and train them down to a proper height. This round just deal with them as they demand. they are not optimum but that's what you got for this round. You cannot overdo vegging. As I just posted, take veg seriously with intensive training to get plants looking like these...24" without cutting mainstem. Defoliating continuously will force them to branch and create numerous budsites. Do not fear bending. Do it aggressively if plants are shooting upwards.
I don't think cooler temps will create any unusual conditions that would change defoliation strategy. If anything, do whatever you can to elevate temps in your veg unit. Add another lamp, insulate walls.
Be patient about vegging. You must build in the veg time into the growing timetable. Bigger plants are far more efficient at creating budding sites. Do not remove any bud sites. Not even the very bottoms. The way to manage the inherent crowding in veg when waiting on available bud space is to keep on defoliating. The resulting plant is therefore more productive because of the tight branching and noding that comes with this kind of aggressive defoliation.
D
disciple
Next round don't fret about height in veg, just defoliate and train them down to a proper height. This round just deal with them as they demand. they are not optimum but that's what you got for this round. You cannot overdo vegging. As I just posted, take veg seriously with intensive training to get plants looking like these...24" without cutting mainstem. Defoliating continuously will force them to branch and create numerous budsites. Do not fear bending. Do it aggressively if plants are shooting upwards.
2 months ago I wouldnt bend. I didnt know how and was afraid to hurt them. Now I bend and tweek to 90 degrees even. I little slip knot with string will do wonders to holding them up till they heal in a few days.
Keef, if you look back at my pics, would you say I should have topped more then and trained outwards?
My gut feeling on my current grow is it's headed in the right direction for my first time and as a newer grower (this is only my 2nd grow). These girls are in their 1st 3 days of flower, so for now I am only taking really big fan leaves off and tucking/bending. Am I correct in thinking no major defoliation until stretch is over in about 3 weeks then hit em hard. And again hit em hard at 45 days with strategic clippings in between?
Thanks for looking. I'm glad I read this thread.
Edit: Bending during stretch is ok right?
Thanks k33f
Putting up my string has compacted the structure, but more buds are closer to the light now. I use the plant itself as netting often, haha. Throughout all stages of growth if I spot a node hiding in the shade, I'll find somewhere to tuck it so it might get some light. I really should have boosted 2 of the plants to the height of the other one, but I kinda forgot about doin that.
String for chalk lines. Soft, slick, and you can tie a knot onto another string and it'll slide around, but still hold up the buds. Then pipe cleaners and bondage.
Bending anytime is ok. Looked at your album and things look excellent. Bending is necessary to achieve an even distribution of branches and to balance the plant. Mine are allowed 32" square and equally tall. Bending shapes it to fit. The plant will not do it on it's own. By bending out radially from the center stalk, and making the bends at roughly the same height, you can arrange the bulk of the production into the premium light zone instead of allowing branches to shoot up vertically. This then forces one to raise the lights thus depriving mids and lower sites of precious light. As for when to defoliate during bud, I allow them the first couple of weeks to stretch and leaf out fully. By then if they are crowding pick some more and bend. Defoliating really reveals how much structure a plant has going for it. Usually, as soon as a plant gets defoliated there is so much more room in the area. Observing the branching will determine which branches to bend and in which direction. Just as the pruner works a vineyard, training fruiting wood onto the support wires for best sun exposure and efficient harvesting, plants can be trained to a well distributed field where all players get their fair share.
Thanks k33f
Putting up my string has compacted the structure, but more buds are closer to the light now. I use the plant itself as netting often, haha. Throughout all stages of growth if I spot a node hiding in the shade, I'll find somewhere to tuck it so it might get some light. I really should have boosted 2 of the plants to the height of the other one, but I kinda forgot about doin that.
String for chalk lines. Soft, slick, and you can tie a knot onto another string and it'll slide around, but still hold up the buds. Then pipe cleaners and bondage.
Looking very nice.
6 days into 12/12.
I am only doing strategic removal now until stretch is over. Mostly just a fan here or there that directly shades a but site below it.
I'm trying to focus more of my attention on bending to get the width needed and light below after I strip em at end of stretch.
I am only doing strategic removal now until stretch is over. Mostly just a fan here or there that directly shades a but site below it.
I'm trying to focus more of my attention on bending to get the width needed and light below after I strip em at end of stretch.
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Looks fine. Not too crowded so no need to strip yet. Work them horizontally keeping them at that height as much as possible. One of the best things you can do is to bring the floor up to the base of the plant. There is tremendous reflective light loss when below the plant base is a light-swallowing dead zone to the floor. You can do this by finding some reflective B/W plastic that fits the floor dimension of the cab and fixing it around the plane at the top of the growtubs. Slit and retape the underside of the plastic in order to get it around the stalks. This may seem like a hassle and get in the way of water changes, checks, etc. It is. It is far too important to overlook though. Sticks of bamboo can be set across the top of the tubs to support the sheet of plastic. It may be cludgy out very effective.
My tunnel design was originally conceived to engineer this fault out of the grow compartment as well as other inherent weaknesses in the typical growroom/tent setup. Reflective light is highly underrated especially that which is directed at the floor and wasted. Defoliating allows much of this light through to the lower nugs as well as allowing it to hit the base field and reflect back upwards. Creating a base reflective field at the top of the tubs catches and reflects this newly passed light.
I'm getting off topic more applicable to my tunnel thread. Peculiar that there has been little discourse in that thread, when it's design and function is directly intertwined with the defoliation method. Defoliating and reflective enhancement is key to high yields per watt.
I agree, I'm pretty educated on the subject and know why there is a need for the leaves...(in the wild)... but I'm also practical enough to know that in the controlled area of your hydro garden, where margin for error is minimal anyway, and you are giving it all the nutrients, temps, humidity needed, therefore the extra storage, humidity/temp protection and wind protection of the leaves are not needed, making it reasonable to defoil them allowing the light to hit all bud spots, and so on, so on. That was a lot of comma's.
I'm about 12 days or so into 12/12. I know I need to do some more bending.
But I am concerned about so many big ass fans. We've got 10-14 more days before stretch comes near an end and I wasn't planning on stripping until then. But it seems like now I probably should.
So that's my question, Strip em down some? Then bend of course.
Pic 1 is entire tent look
Pic 2 is one tub, 3 plants
Pic 3 is the furthest from light plant in front tub, a bit lower than the others.
Pic 4 is mostly 1 plant in tub 1 from above.
Pic 5 is a side view of front tub.
Pic 6 is the back tub. The arrow points to the top of the shortest-furthest from light.
Pic 7 is interesting, The closest point is a lateral bent branch, while the rest is all upper branching tops and main tops.
Pic 8 is a side view of same plant.
But I am concerned about so many big ass fans. We've got 10-14 more days before stretch comes near an end and I wasn't planning on stripping until then. But it seems like now I probably should.
So that's my question, Strip em down some? Then bend of course.
Pic 1 is entire tent look
Pic 2 is one tub, 3 plants
Pic 3 is the furthest from light plant in front tub, a bit lower than the others.
Pic 4 is mostly 1 plant in tub 1 from above.
Pic 5 is a side view of front tub.
Pic 6 is the back tub. The arrow points to the top of the shortest-furthest from light.
Pic 7 is interesting, The closest point is a lateral bent branch, while the rest is all upper branching tops and main tops.
Pic 8 is a side view of same plant.
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They look great. Getting leafy for certain. As you can see, one or two plants in this area could be plenty. I would let them stretch some more because extra length on the main stems will allow further horizontal reach with the training thus spreading out the productive sites. So, after some more stretch, train out radially and defoliate when needed. Lower the lamp accordingly with the extra headroom that was created by training. The extra light and exposure through training will have them filling out the space fully in no time. Hope your next group are already vegging. You want them bigger than these so that you are forced into aggressively defoliating. Defoliation gets best results from plants that have been fully defoliated in veg and prepped for further treatment.
I should have been more patient and waited for your response. But I decided that if I at least took the BIG fans out now it would accomplish two things. More circulation (so crowded in there leaves are wetting each other), and better view of branching to see where I should train.
So, now my intent was to leave them for a few days untouched after having taken a majority of large fans out (not stripped by any means), then begin training laterally.
I dont have a net, or frame material or anything to make a screen atm, and may not be able to make one up. As such, with each training, I'll probably be doing individual branch tying with string holding them from above until they knot up good (1-3days usually). Then I'll have to rinse/repeat when they get big heavy buds.
I'm almost tempted to re position the tallest plants in each tub to the back middle (or tent corner if you will) so the shorter two can get some extra light love and catch up. But of course that may really not be needed if I do good lateral training of the tall girls.
I wish I could say my next group is already vegging. Sadly, I'm 0-12 on two sets of 6 clones this time. I can't figure out why. I did it the same way with these girls in the tent now that I went 8-8 on. I have two moms in the closet to pull clones from now since I new I couldn't fit 8 in the tent.
I am not sure I get ya on "you want them bigger than these.....". I did lots of defoliating in veg. I did top and fim, and bent trained em. I was very limited in allowable width to train in the closet they veged in, so that may be the issue. But these girls also went into flowering light schedule at 19-21" tall. And with the 3x these girls stretch, that certainly puts them way the hell over your standard of "big". I know they stretch 3x based on last grow.
I'm sure I dont have this process down pat. Yet I feel like I am not far off, and somewhat trying to adapt it to this grow's unique circumstances. ie: too many plants in too small an area. I also am starting to believe I may not get the width we wanted totally filling the tent. I guess this is because they were not trained enough in veg? I probably allowed them to go too high and didnt bend quite enough.
***All that being said, I can certainly tell there are more bud sites at the top from my last grow. Lots more. And I feel like the lower & mid sites are in a much better position. The issue that arises will be height vs light penetration. I'll have to make that reflective floor up to help with that. And maybe add a couple cfl's in each corner to send a more diagonal inward light beam in on them. I am really believing in this technique now. I wont get the 10z per yield. But if I get 4-5z per it will be a success. 6z+ per would be major for me.
So, now my intent was to leave them for a few days untouched after having taken a majority of large fans out (not stripped by any means), then begin training laterally.
I dont have a net, or frame material or anything to make a screen atm, and may not be able to make one up. As such, with each training, I'll probably be doing individual branch tying with string holding them from above until they knot up good (1-3days usually). Then I'll have to rinse/repeat when they get big heavy buds.
I'm almost tempted to re position the tallest plants in each tub to the back middle (or tent corner if you will) so the shorter two can get some extra light love and catch up. But of course that may really not be needed if I do good lateral training of the tall girls.
I wish I could say my next group is already vegging. Sadly, I'm 0-12 on two sets of 6 clones this time. I can't figure out why. I did it the same way with these girls in the tent now that I went 8-8 on. I have two moms in the closet to pull clones from now since I new I couldn't fit 8 in the tent.
I am not sure I get ya on "you want them bigger than these.....". I did lots of defoliating in veg. I did top and fim, and bent trained em. I was very limited in allowable width to train in the closet they veged in, so that may be the issue. But these girls also went into flowering light schedule at 19-21" tall. And with the 3x these girls stretch, that certainly puts them way the hell over your standard of "big". I know they stretch 3x based on last grow.
I'm sure I dont have this process down pat. Yet I feel like I am not far off, and somewhat trying to adapt it to this grow's unique circumstances. ie: too many plants in too small an area. I also am starting to believe I may not get the width we wanted totally filling the tent. I guess this is because they were not trained enough in veg? I probably allowed them to go too high and didnt bend quite enough.
***All that being said, I can certainly tell there are more bud sites at the top from my last grow. Lots more. And I feel like the lower & mid sites are in a much better position. The issue that arises will be height vs light penetration. I'll have to make that reflective floor up to help with that. And maybe add a couple cfl's in each corner to send a more diagonal inward light beam in on them. I am really believing in this technique now. I wont get the 10z per yield. But if I get 4-5z per it will be a success. 6z+ per would be major for me.
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