Cambodian * Laos * Thai * Vietnam * Burma & SE Asians....

[harvestreaper]

The male above I'm using is

F1 (3rd gen) from wild:
P2 Cambodian #2 x P2 Vientiane seed lot # 3 - so both the parents were selected on by me from many from the initial bulkings I did of each - In the case of the Vientiane the initial P1's were narrowed as well (some just pure wild herm messes to extreme, had to go), in the case of the Cambodians I only ever had two plants to work with so there is Cambodian #1 & #2....

not just breeding up anything that stands still like me then lol ,,still getting my head around terminology i seem to remember breeding an f3 back to a f1 ands someone said that makes it p1,,over my head ,,,good your selecting hard best way

that's some awesome information, love that shit on ratios - many thanks... Last two pics above look like nutrient deficiency a bit to me, the tell would be mostly or only the tops petiole are colored not bottoms....also extreme exaggeration at the nodes

Here’s a good example I’ve got going now, also note consistent nature of the stripping & petiole coloration

View attachment 18834632

View attachment 18834631

*************

This most recent Gambian male I'm testing out, its offspring doesn't like to play well with all females, does great with tropicals not so much non (perhaps pollen grain size mismatch etc), lot of males coming out too in many crosses, not others... always interesting to observe the good and bad...

that was how my grail skunk /haze looked with the stripes,, had a few like it since

 

[led05]

not just breeding up anything that stands still like me then lol ,,still getting my head around terminology i seem to remember breeding an f3 back to a f1 ands someone said that makes it p1,,over my head ,,,good your selecting hard best way

that was how my grail skunk /haze looked with the stripes,, had a few like it since

P1 is the seeds I Recd from the wild & grew out & Bulked

P2 are seeds made from the bulking / reproduction I made, I take those & make buckets of favorites & buckets off all to revert back to if / when needed, takes lot more work but experience is why I do so…

I then took from my “favorite” bucket of each parent(s) & crossed my favorites from those to make an “F1” which is the 3rd generation of those parents in my hands, I suppose some would see it as 4th….selections are done at every stage after initial bulkings, always over here

A true F1 is a X of two unrelated homogenized parents, hence the quotes - but the X certainly shows a ton of F1 vigor

So in example above I selected on the Cambodian parent 2X’s and the Vientiane 3X’s to find my favorite one male made up of both parents lineage, there never were any Cambodian males, their initial bulkings were selfings…

So I can see how some would view it as either 3rd or 4th generation the F1 male

F3 x F1 won’t equal P1 ever in my book

If you took an F1 X & breed within it for 6-7 generations or so (I believe it takes even more, personally) to make it homogenous / heirloom like then I guess one could call that a P1 but I’d personally take issue with that and I’m sure it wouldn’t breed true after that few of a generations works….

Cannabis is very unique vs many other plants, reminds me most of peppers, much more than tomatoes imo, I’m not a hops grower so can’t speak on that…

Peace

 

[harvestreaper]

P1 is the seeds I Recd from the wild & grew out & Bulked

P2 are seeds made from the bulking / reproduction I made, I take those & make buckets of favorites & buckets off all to revert back to if / when needed, takes lot more work but experience is why I do so…

I then took from my “favorite” bucket of each parent(s) & crossed my favorites from those to make an “F1” which is the 3rd generation of those parents in my hands, I suppose some would see it as 4th….selections are done at every stage after initial bulkings, always over here

A true F1 is a X of two unrelated homogenized parents, hence the quotes - but the X certainly shows a ton of F1 vigor

So in example above I selected on the Cambodian parent 2X’s and the Vientiane 3X’s to find my favorite one male made up of both parents lineage, there never were any Cambodian males, their initial bulkings were selfings…

So I can see how some would view it as either 3rd or 4th generation the F1 male

F3 x F1 won’t equal P1 ever in my book

If you took an F1 X & breed within it for 6-7 generations or so (I believe it takes even more, personally) to make it homogenous / heirloom like then I guess one could call that a P1 but I’d personally take issue with that and I’m sure it wouldn’t breed true after that few of a generations works….

Cannabis is very unique vs many other plants, reminds me most of peppers, much more than tomatoes imo, I’m not a hops grower so can’t speak on that…

Peace

very informative answer thanks ,,,thats some thorough solid breeding practices you have ,,proper ,, with my mango thai i had 4 females 2 males the females were true no hermies but the two males made a few pistils but i went ahead and made f2s not being sure if it was my handling and thinking it not unusual in thais ,,after a chat with hempy he informed there are 3 types regular males /females and hermi out of my last few seeds i got the male im using now hes had exrtreme stress testing and im confidant he has no hermi issues s il be breeding him back to the f2s i made an taking it from there ,,in the meantime ive been making some crosses to get an idea of what he throws had to shut up shop for a few months so just piking up the pieces again now

 

[led05]

,,after a chat with hempy he informed there are 3 regular males /females and hermi out of

your welcome and from a post of a post of a post of mine or collab of them from long ago….

*******************

“
a post I made years ago elsewhere on related subjects

• Hermaphrodite: only hermie plants (this means staminate + pistillate flowers at the same bract.
• Monoecious: only monoecious plants (this means staminate + pistillate flowers within the same plant.
• Dioecious: only dioecious plants (this means either staminate or pistillate plants, but firm sex regardless).
• Gynodioecious: both firm females + hermies.
• Androdioecious: both firm males + hermies.

""Most flowering plants are hermaphroditic, and unisexual individuals (dioecious) have evolved from hermaphroditic ancestors many times (Renner, 2014). Trioecy is an uncommon sexual system in which hermaphrodites, females, and males coexist in some species. Trioecy occurs during the evolutionary transition from hermaphroditism to dioecy (Charlesworth and Charlesworth, 1978, Ross, 1982, Spigler and Ashman, 2012). Trioecy is a stable evolutionary stage under pollen limitation of female seed production because pollen limitation reduces the fitness of females but not self-fertile hermaphrodites, counteracting the seed fertility advantage of females (Maurice and Fleming, 1995). "

CONTD.......

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468265919300137

 

[harvestreaper]

your welcome and from a post of a post of a post of mine or collab of them from long ago….

*******************

“
a post I made years ago elsewhere on related subjects

• Hermaphrodite: only hermie plants (this means staminate + pistillate flowers at the same bract.
• Monoecious: only monoecious plants (this means staminate + pistillate flowers within the same plant.
• Dioecious: only dioecious plants (this means either staminate or pistillate plants, but firm sex regardless).
• Gynodioecious: both firm females + hermies.
• Androdioecious: both firm males + hermies.

""Most flowering plants are hermaphroditic, and unisexual individuals (dioecious) have evolved from hermaphroditic ancestors many times (Renner, 2014). Trioecy is an uncommon sexual system in which hermaphrodites, females, and males coexist in some species. Trioecy occurs during the evolutionary transition from hermaphroditism to dioecy (Charlesworth and Charlesworth, 1978, Ross, 1982, Spigler and Ashman, 2012). Trioecy is a stable evolutionary stage under pollen limitation of female seed production because pollen limitation reduces the fitness of females but not self-fertile hermaphrodites, counteracting the seed fertility advantage of females (Maurice and Fleming, 1995). "

CONTD.......

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468265919300137

well i did not know the origins of hempys info i do know hes had lot of experiance with thai , but if he gleaned something from one of your posts then thankyou also ,,the plot thickens and this post clears it up a little more ,, so my male now and the females i had previous were all dioecious cheers

 

[@hempy]

well i did not know the origins of hempys info i do know hes had lot of experiance with thai , but if he gleaned something from one of your posts then thankyou also ,,the plot thickens and this post clears it up a little more ,, so my male now and the females i had previous were all dioecious cheers

My information comes from hands on experience i have been growing pure sats since 79 and you do pick things up along the way.

I posted that some sativas lines have 3 sexes when i first started to post back at cannabis world and some laughed.

Unlike Dutch type hybrids were you see female plants hermaphrodite at any point threw flowering sativas express at sexing and the males stay male and the female stays female once sexed that has been my experience over the decades.

 

[Piff_cat]

always tough to judge physical chacteristics from a screen but this paper by RCC is what put me on to shandong wild having the full red stem so i searched thru the chinese herbarium online at the shandong plants.

not only were they red but also ridged and the "ladder" phenotype where nodes stay opposite whole life and grow horizontaly.

RCC brought back seeds from the 4 types he found in shandong the wild type with dark red stems is described by RCC just like this pic with heavy branching thick stem but truncated. since there are very few cannabis germplasms to studdy in the 90s/2000s these shandong seeds were used alot in different studies even before the 2019 one that discovered "basal" cannabis. usually when i read stuff i look for outliers, plants over represented as outliers often have serious taxonomic value as they can retain genetic material lost in other lines. a maternal haplotype study in 2007 strongly suggests shandong founded feral indian/himalaya lines . the japanese wild plants and landraces have the characteristic ridged stem we also see in haze but rarely anywhere else, and its there in shandong. but the coolest/most useful thing to me is its relationship with se asian ganja lines its shown to found. this maternal haplotype map below shows 3 distinct maternal lines in china the blue line is highest latitude mostly all hemp types and more closely related to euro lines then asian

the green line is what could be considered "sativa" or at least those who founded sativa. it has the highest thc wild member from yunnan 1.25 thc/0 cbd.

the red line comes from the wild plants in xinijiang and some tibet. a bit more confusing because haplotype group members in red range from .73 thc/0 cbd to the opposite almost no thc in tight areas. this group definitly founded the north afghan/morroco nld hasplants.

there are 2 major collision areas both of which involve the red and green lines overlapping in tibet. it seems the source of almost all drug type diversity in china comes from the ne china wild genomes. several studies have identified ne china as way above average in diversity. a big chunck of the red line contain lots of "private" haplotypes meaning only found in this 1 line.
purple is the high diversity private haplotype area in ne china
orange shows the diverse wild lines trajectory from wild to feral to cultivated.
SD(shandong) and ZL inner mongolia found the green. also noteworthy shandong is damn close to the south china seas

 

[harvestreaper]

My information comes from hands on experience i have been growing pure sats since 79 and you do pick things up along the way.

I posted that some sativas lines have 3 sexes when i first started to post back at cannabis world and some laughed.

Unlike Dutch type hybrids were you see female plants hermaphrodite at any point threw flowering sativas express at sexing and the males stay male and the female stays female once sexed that has been my experience over the decades.

thanks again hempy ,,was a biggy for me

 

[mexcurandero420]

Some of the best extreme terpenes are for anti fungal defense. For example the lolab kashmir intense limonene/citrate the humidity stays at 70 year round. Faranese is another anti fungal terpene strongly linked to thai landraces . Various faranese isomers responsible for the brown oxidation curing . Faranese is also responsible for Apple browning. Camphene is another strong anti fungal which is derived from pinene. They are found in concert similar to a myrcene/ocimene relationship. Cambodian, Nigeria and other western Africans are highest camphene populations and ots pretty uncommon making its presence a good clue. I've seen good amount of pics from when the Cambodian was cataloged and several show chromosome mutations alot of the varigation twisted types . Most aneuploids in the wild are caused by unreduced female gamete. Oppressive humidity with close to 12/12 year round can cause females to produce gamete with twice as many chromosomes.

Farnesene you mean, but you forget geraniol(rose scent) which has strong antifungal properties and can be found in certain Indian cultivars.

 

[mexcurandero420]

always tough to judge physical chacteristics from a screen but this paper by RCC is what put me on to shandong wild having the full red stem so i searched thru the chinese herbarium online at the shandong plants.

not only were they red but also ridged and the "ladder" phenotype where nodes stay opposite whole life and grow horizontaly.
View attachment 18835001
View attachment 18835002

RCC brought back seeds from the 4 types he found in shandong the wild type with dark red stems is described by RCC just like this pic with heavy branching thick stem but truncated. since there are very few cannabis germplasms to studdy in the 90s/2000s these shandong seeds were used alot in different studies even before the 2019 one that discovered "basal" cannabis. usually when i read stuff i look for outliers, plants over represented as outliers often have serious taxonomic value as they can retain genetic material lost in other lines. a maternal haplotype study in 2007 strongly suggests shandong founded feral indian/himalaya lines . the japanese wild plants and landraces have the characteristic ridged stem we also see in haze but rarely anywhere else, and its there in shandong. but the coolest/most useful thing to me is its relationship with se asian ganja lines its shown to found. this maternal haplotype map below shows 3 distinct maternal lines in china the blue line is highest latitude mostly all hemp types and more closely related to euro lines then asian

the green line is what could be considered "sativa" or at least those who founded sativa. it has the highest thc wild member from yunnan 1.25 thc/0 cbd.

the red line comes from the wild plants in xinijiang and some tibet. a bit more confusing because haplotype group members in red range from .73 thc/0 cbd to the opposite almost no thc in tight areas. this group definitly founded the north afghan/morroco nld hasplants.

there are 2 major collision areas both of which involve the red and green lines overlapping in tibet. it seems the source of almost all drug type diversity in china comes from the ne china wild genomes. several studies have identified ne china as way above average in diversity. a big chunck of the red line contain lots of "private" haplotypes meaning only found in this 1 line.
purple is the high diversity private haplotype area in ne china
orange shows the diverse wild lines trajectory from wild to feral to cultivated.
SD(shandong) and ZL inner mongolia found the green. also noteworthy shandong is damn close to the south china seas


View attachment 18834999

This was a fully branched Chinese cultivar from Yunnan with red stem.

 

[Piff_cat]

Farnesene you mean, but you forget geraniol(rose scent) which has strong antifungal properties and can be found in certain Indian cultivars.

Yes spelling is not my strong suit. Geraniol is a great addition to the list and I've seen it test very high in the high altitude nanda devi types. The distinction between different faranese types also seems important. For example a5 profile features 2 different types. This is a good connection between nevils haze and Thai landraces. Karl hillig study in 2004 included the most comprehensive landrace analyzation to date testing 155 different cultivars for allozyme comparison(mutated primary enzymes) terpenes and cannabinoids
The strongest terpene associations he found were -
south korea 3 delta carene

Thailand faranese
North Afghanistan guiaol, eudesmol

Xinijiang alpha bisabolol santalene

 

[mexcurandero420]

3-delta-carene is an allergen, just like geraniol and limonene.
I've seen an interesting analyse from a CBD oil made in Yunnan with some interesting terpenes in it.

 

[led05]

well i did not know the origins of hempys info i do know hes had lot of experiance with thai , but if he gleaned something from one of your posts then thankyou also ,,the plot thickens and this post clears it up a little more ,, so my male now and the females i had previous were all dioecious cheers

I have no idea where Hempy gets his knowledge - I’m sure it varies like us all; I was simply expanding on your post with greater details on the subject…

Peace brother

 

[Piff_cat]

3-delta-carene is an allergen, just like geraniol and limonene.
I've seen an interesting analyse from a CBD oil made in Yunnan with some interesting terpenes in it.

its probly the most direct terpene to landrace progenitor relationship found so far.korean pine utilize delta carene for the induced fight against pine wilt nematodes. the nematodes get into the vascular system and effectively constrict the plant to death. delta carene is made in tiny amounts when no nematodes alarms are off but hormones can quickly make this terpene skyrocket as intentional inductions have proven. south korea lines offer the most complete picture of a main progenitor of drug cannabis. one of the best studies was done by sams group when looking for high CBC strains

andong korea high cbc chemotype- thc/cbc dominantwith the variable ratio remaining cannabinoid fraction cbg methyl ether .05-.1. in sams paper andong south korea landrace could make up to .57 cbc.

the cbc system itself is actually linked to the more ancient thc synthase enzyme set known as group 2 held by: korea, tibet, haze provided by sam, nevils haze, alaskan ice. the 2 group includes chromene cannabinoid system in its block while the 1 group(all other drug cannabis) does not. the 1 series still makes low amounts of cbc, but the real difference comes in cbl and cbt. these 2 further compounds are extremely high in haze but found almost no where else. the cbc itself is a gum not crystaline and has been found to greatly modify/improve thc. it potentiates the action in the brain lasting longer but more importantly unleashes huge amounts of seratonin thru manipulation of the sodium channels trpa1. cbt is very hjigh in haze A progeny.
the lack of chromene synthases in group 1 thc synthase group means any pedigree which doesnt have a 2 member on both sides will decrease teh population which still holds the chromene system. considering the outcrossing haze and sativa hybrids undergo its easy to see how this full platter of cannabinoids could be trimmed down in just a few generations. i believe this explains why double haze f1s ( haze/afg x haze/afg) retain a high level of cannabinoid diversity. for example nevils wreck males progeny one of few current strains which fall into the 2 group. since the trainwreck parent had old thai genes seems all of the extra enzymes still got passed down because moonshine haze etc are all high in chromenes.

mango haze x haze a/c from zAgros

 

[Piff_cat]

Growing some of dj9 work right now including f2 of the tlt Vietnam made by Dwight using what he calls the red tower pheno female and a selected green male he used on several outcrosses and also a standout 11 week Vietnam female. These are growing faster then everything else including sfv og x outback 8, dj Colombian gold 1st gen in us x Vietnam, hawaiian haze ( outback x crippler) x cherry bomb. Lots of red xylem on the sfv outback. Here's the 3 big Vietnam

 

[harvestreaper]

nice shade of green piff

 

[led05]

Growing some of dj9 work right now including f2 of the tlt Vietnam made by Dwight using what he calls the red tower pheno female and a selected green male he used on several outcrosses and also a standout 11 week Vietnam female. These are growing faster then everything else including sfv og x outback 8, dj Colombian gold 1st gen in us x Vietnam, hawaiian haze ( outback x crippler) x cherry bomb. Lots of red xylem on the sfv outback. Here's the 3 big Vietnam

View attachment 18835737 View attachment 18835738 View attachment 18835739
View attachment 18835733 View attachment 18835735 View attachment 18835736 View attachment 18835740 View attachment 18835741 View attachment 18835744 View attachment 18835747

Nice work buddy ^

Volunteer in GH, looks about 50/50 hybrid & @ 50 SE Asian to me, about to start triple serrations already… light earthy, fresh & gentle mint on petiole & stem rubs, nothing much at all… volunteers that outlast others, pop up first, are beasts out the gates seem to never disappoint

75% SE Asian 25% Gambian - no sex shown yet on this particular one

 

[yesum]

Don't cut yourself.

 

[Piff_cat]

those leaves are sick. so impressive when plants can build these structures so quickly. those volunteers comin up first and getting to business still have that competitive spirit haha. volunteers are kinda like natural selection with the seed shattering and getting out the gate early. early haze gens the volunteers were said to be best plants too. the 3 vietnam red f2 are 4-5x bigger then rest of seedlings . i like when they still bend to thte light adjust quickly.
this is red viet female dj used for the f2

 

[led05]

those leaves are sick. so impressive when plants can build these structures so quickly. those volunteers comin up first and getting to business still have that competitive spirit haha. volunteers are kinda like natural selection with the seed shattering and getting out the gate early. early haze gens the volunteers were said to be best plants too. the 3 vietnam red f2 are 4-5x bigger then rest of seedlings . i like when they still bend to thte light adjust quickly.
this is red viet female dj used for the f2
View attachment 18836174

There are so many points ma nature does the selection work for us, we’ve just gotta pay attention, be observant & humble and the plants will do most the heavy lifting leading the way

Peace & Thank you