AN CarboLoad, is it really that good?

[glow]

If you're being selective, yes, otherwise, no.
Does AN base compare equally to GH 3 part base, yes, because they directly copied it.

But do many other companies sell 0.5% magnesium in a bottle of water? No.

When you look at AN for what it is, it's quite clearly a piss take. I mean you'd have to be pretty creative to put together a decent argument to say otherwise.



I think the word "just" speaks volumes to be honest.

You can't minimise the fact that they've constructed their 15 bottle nutrient line to milk growers for every possible penny. It's the whole point of the argument.



It's not even an argument. It's a case of whether you'd rather pay $20 for 0.5% magnesium sulphate or $1 for 100x the amount.



They're not.

I know I'm being blunt here and I hope you don't take this as me being confrontational or rude, but there's just no other way for me to put it. I mean there's no room for me to say it any other way. AN doesn't leave me that room to say ok this additive might actually be beneficial in this way etc... because they don't even tell you what's in the bottle. You're investing in blind hope. Nothing more.

On a complete nutrient line fed at the right levels, I'll bet you good money that it's impossible to tell by eye the difference between one plant given all those additives, compared to another given none.

A plant should be in absolute optimum health on any complete full spectrum nutrient. It's that simple. If it's not, it's because of the inability of the grower to read their plants and provide the elements in the correct ratio to suit it's needs at that specific time.



Some plants will need different ratios of elements, but it's very rare you won't be able to get where you want using your base feeds alone. Very very rare. If it's hard to achieve that with your basic foods, change them. Simple.



I want to see pictures of that cut at the time when you think it needs specifically more magnesium. I will give you money if you can't adjust your base feeds or buy a base feed to cater exactly for it's needs.

The calmag myth is the biggest most out of control issue in cannabis cultivation right now. It's massively massively overused. It's the most misdiagnosed deficiency in all of growing and is almost always something completely unrelated.

Yep - well covered

 

[papaduc]

Nope I'm talking about (to quote) "Heterotroph An organism that cannot synthesize its own food and is dependent upon complex organic substances for nutrition"

Hence saying that these complex organic substances and inorganic substances (BTW) must be provided in solutions and substrates.

And:

"Also, when you say it's a myth that chemical feeds will kill off beneficial bacteria and micro life, are you saying that the concentration of salts in a chemically fed medium has no effect on their numbers?"

Yes it does (and yes it is a myth) - inorganic fertilizers at the right levels and balances act as micro food and thereby increase their numbers. Although massively oversupply nutrients or throw those nutrients out of balance horribly and you'll impact the micro population (typically the micros used in hydroponics - e.g. Trichoderma sp. and Bacillus sp, will sporulate until conditions become conducive again)

I was talking more specifically about what you said about them feeding on the mineral elements of the fertilisers themselves. Anyway, it's a side issue, but still interesting stuff.

But, in regards to the main question, what are you trying to achieve by cultivating these bacteria in your hydro system?

 

[glow]

I was talking more specifically about what you said about them feeding on the mineral elements of the fertilisers themselves. Anyway, it's a side issue, but still interesting stuff.

But, in regards to the main question, what are you trying to achieve by cultivating these bacteria in your hydro system?

Read it again - I've answered that question. Actually cut and paste it for you:

What are we trying to achieve by cultivating beneficial bacteria and fungi in hydro systems? Very simple really. Pathogen preventatives (and no contrary to claims by some bennie floggers they won't increase nutrient uptake in hydroponics - bit overly simplified but pretty much the case where the plants are healthy). When growing in organic substrates (e.g. coir) you should not be using oxidants such as hydrogen peroxide, chlorine or monochloramine. That is oxidants degrade organic matter so sterilization is out where organics are used in hydroponics. Nor should you being using ozone or UV as they break down chelates leaving them to precipitate from solution and in the case of ozone breaks down organic matter (e.g. amino acids and coco substrate). So what we are achieving is disease prevention while also being able to use organic materials/compounds. Inorganic nutrients are great (highly bioavailable with no need for microbes to make them available) - however benefits can be achieved through the use of certain organic additives with inorganic nutrition. Microbes in hydroponics enables this. Other than this, various Trichoderma sp., for example, increase root growth through inducing auxin responses. There's a few nice things that bennies can do in hydroponics. Basically the best of both worlds. Inorganic + organic.

Microbe metabolism is extremely complex - feeding is perhaps the wrong term to use. You also have root exudates (symbiotic relationship between plants and microflora) etc - the problem is too many oversimplify what is extremely complex biology/science.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

If you're being selective, yes, otherwise, no.
Does AN base compare equally to GH 3 part base, yes, because they directly copied it.

But do many other companies sell 0.5% magnesium in a bottle of water? No.

When you look at AN for what it is, it's quite clearly a piss take. I mean you'd have to be pretty creative to put together a decent argument to say otherwise.



I think the word "just" speaks volumes to be honest.

You can't minimise the fact that they've constructed their 15 bottle nutrient line to milk growers for every possible penny. It's the whole point of the argument.



It's not even an argument. It's a case of whether you'd rather pay $20 for 0.5% magnesium sulphate or $1 for 100x the amount.



They're not.

I know I'm being blunt here and I hope you don't take this as me being confrontational or rude, but there's just no other way for me to put it. I mean there's no room for me to say it any other way. AN doesn't leave me that room to say ok this additive might actually be beneficial in this way etc... because they don't even tell you what's in the bottle. You're investing in blind hope. Nothing more.

On a complete nutrient line fed at the right levels, I'll bet you good money that it's impossible to tell by eye the difference between one plant given all those additives, compared to another given none.

A plant should be in absolute optimum health on any complete full spectrum nutrient. It's that simple. If it's not, it's because of the inability of the grower to read their plants and provide the elements in the correct ratio to suit it's needs at that specific time.



Some plants will need different ratios of elements, but it's very rare you won't be able to get where you want using your base feeds alone. Very very rare. If it's hard to achieve that with your basic foods, change them. Simple.



I want to see pictures of that cut at the time when you think it needs specifically more magnesium. I will give you money if you can't adjust your base feeds or buy a base feed to cater exactly for it's needs.

The calmag myth is the biggest most out of control issue in cannabis cultivation right now. It's massively massively overused. It's the most misdiagnosed deficiency in all of growing and is almost always something completely unrelated.

Papaduc can come off like a dick and twist what u say to meet his opinions, but I agree with pretty much everything he said here in his assessment.

 

[papaduc]

Papaduc can come off like a dick and twist what u say to meet his opinions, but I agree with pretty much everything he said here in his assessment.

Believe me mate, I don't need to twist anyone's words to meet with my opinions. I'm more than happy disagreeing with you. You should know that by now

Btw, I actually think it's quite dickish to imply that that's what I do. I'm a straight talker, not a bullshitter. If you disagree with me, fine, I accept that. I'll argue my point with anyone and I respect people who do the same with me, but twist your words so they fit in with mine? You've got the wrong fella there mate. That's not my style at all. I've got no intention of forcing or manipulating you into agreement with me. Never have had.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

This is the wrong thread for that, im talking about the bleach discussion where u quote me on the 1ml and I clearly state I feel imo its safe, but the 2 to 2.5 ml pr 10 gal is where I had probs.

But u twisted it to say that I said 1ml would cause probs, that's twisting to ur favor bro, its right there in that smurfing erbs newb thread, tips for new growers cutting the curve. Id link it but I don't know how. Dude u do twist shit like this all the time. I don't know why cause u have some knowledge. U don't have to be right all the time man. its ok.

 

[glow]

Believe me mate, I don't need to twist anyone's words to meet with my opinions. I'm more than happy disagreeing with you. You should know that by now

Btw, I actually think it's quite dickish to imply that that's what I do. I'm a straight talker, not a bullshitter. If you disagree with me, fine, I accept that. I'll argue my point with anyone and I respect people who do the same with me, but twist your words so they fit in with mine? You've got the wrong fella there mate. That's not my style at all. I've got no intention of forcing or manipulating you into agreement with me. Never have had.

Gad can we end it with the mud slinging that tends to go on. Think this thread has had enough of that already. Shake hands and agree to disagree.... whatever

 

[papaduc]

This is the wrong thread for that, im talking about the bleach discussion where u quote me on the 1ml and I clearly state I feel imo its safe, but the 2 to 2.5 ml pr 10 gal is where I had probs.

But u twisted it to say that I said 1ml would cause probs, that's twisting to ur favor bro, its right there in that smurfing erbs newb thread, tips for new growers cutting the curve. Id link it but I don't know how. Dude u do twist shit like this all the time. I don't know why cause u have some knowledge. U don't have to be right all the time man. its ok.

Please stop with the patronising. I've got no grief with you whatsoever. Read your own post ffs. This place... honest to god...

You said you had problems caused by what? 1 ml? 2ml? Do you have to be so pedantic?

I'm having a discussion here with someone who is not you, and you jump in with an immature response like that. Grow up mate. You can be my enemy if that's what you want, another troll of mine who can't take a knock to his ego.. that's entirely your prerogative.

Or engage in sensible discussion, like an intelligent person.
Take care... Jesus.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

In this thread I was emphasizing ur point of view on base nutrients having what u need for plants with out lines with 15 different bottles, and agreeing with u that I wish the nutrient companies would llist exactly whats in their products. That's all. yeah I took a jab at u cause I was frustrated in the other thread and I shouldn't have in this thread. Im man enough to admit that.. more than I can say for u.

good day sir.

 

[papaduc]

Anyway... Glow, The reason I asked is because of this:

You need to also filter your air using a 0.22 micron syringe filter. Unwanted microorganisms are present in air.

If the reason for breeding the bacteria is as a preventative measure in place of chlorination etc, why be so guarded against airborne pathogens?

 

[papaduc]

In this thread I was emphasizing ur point of view on base nutrients having what u need for plants with out lines with 15 different bottles, and agreeing with u that I wish the nutrient companies would llist exactly whats in their products. That's all. yeah I took a jab at u cause I was frustrated in the other thread and I shouldn't have in this thread. Im man enough to admit that.. more than I can say for u.

good day sir.

Can you not see the contradiction at the end of your post? Can't you see how you invalidate all the positivity and the apology by ending it with another dig?

The difference between me and you I think can be emphasised by the fact that, as I was reading that post, I was ready to type "no problem mate, it's no big deal, only the internet and that, yada ya"

And then I get to the end and see that. Which is unfortunate. I'm not here to fight with you mate, and if you got frustrated with me in the other thread you can simply send me a pm or wait for me to reply. You don't have to follow me here, that's trolling mate, but fuck it. Look, we argued about what? Bleach? What the fuck..? Be cool man. Let it go.

I don't think you're a bad dude, but I do get the feeling that lately you seem to be popping up and picking at what I say, since we had that argument/debate in the vert forum. Shit happens on the internet man, that's how it works. We come here in an open forum to debate things which we're all quite opinionated on. You can't hold personal grudges brother. I certainly don't hold any towards you. Take care

 

[Miraculous Meds]

Can you not see the contradiction at the end of your post? Can't you see how you invalidate all the positivity and the apology by ending it with another dig?

The difference between me and you I think can be emphasised by the fact that, as I was reading that post, I was ready to type "no problem mate, it's no big deal, only the internet and that, yada ya"

And then I get to the end and see that. Which is unfortunate. I'm not here to fight with you mate, and if you got frustrated with me in the other thread you can simply send me a pm or wait for me to reply. You don't have to follow me here, that's trolling mate, but fuck it. Look, we argued about what? Bleach? What the fuck..? Be cool man. Let it go.

I don't think you're a bad dude, but I do get the feeling that lately you seem to be popping up and picking at what I say, since we had that argument/debate in the vert forum. Shit happens on the internet man, that's how it works. We come here in an open forum to debate things which we're all quite opinionated on. You can't hold personal grudges brother. I certainly don't hold any towards you. Take care

Sir im not following u, when I get bored I look at the new posts, or threads that ive already posted in, that show up high lighted in my personal page. I had already posted in this thread before our posts with eachother.

sorry for the derail OP, I wont do it again.

 

[glow]

Anyway... Glow, The reason I asked is because of this:



If the reason for breeding the bacteria is as a preventative measure in place of chlorination etc, why be so guarded against airborne pathogens?

I would have thought that was obvious. This isn't organics where randoms are the norm. You want selective bacteria and/or fungi in solution. Air carries bacteria and fungi that are not desired in solution so by filtering the air with a 0.22 micron filter you stop unwanted bacteria and fungi from the air entering the nutrient tank- e.g. pythium etc. So for example, some research:

in research by M. F. Yassin et al (2010), where outdoor and indoor air samples from four locations were tested for airborne bacteria and fungi, it was shown that 26 groups of bacteria and fungi, either of human or environmental origin were present in the air. Seven genera of fungi, mainly members of the genus Aspergillum, were isolated from all the locations. Bacteria showed higher growth numbers as opposed to the slower growing fungi. .

In another study by BE Rangaswamy et al (2012), an investigation of the quality of air and the quantity of airborne microbes in one of the gardens of Davanagere was conducted for 1 year to assess the level of airborne pathogens. The main aim of the research was to determine the microbiological content of the aerial ambience in the garden of Davangere, with special focus on bacterial and fungal contaminants. Aspergillus spp, Curvularia spp, Alternaria spp, Penicillium spp, Rhizopus spp, Nigrospora spp, Fusarium spp, Mucor spp and Cladosporium spp were commonly found in the selected six sampled areas of the garden; of these, Asergillus spp, Penicillium spp and Pithomyces spp were found to be dominant. The concentration level of airborne bacteria was also measured with proper media. Selected bacterial genera such as Escherichia coli (E. coli), Klebsialla spp, Pseudomonas spp, Salmonella spp, Staphylococcus spp, Proteus spp and Enterococcus spp were found in the garden. In the sampling, bacterial counts were influenced by temperature while aerosol fungi correlated to temperature and relative humidity. Taking into consideration the entire assay, the concentration of the fungi was considerably high in the winter and rainy season, whereas the concentration of bacteria was remarkably high in the summer season.

Basically, to simplify, aerating a compost tea without the appropriate microbiological air filtration system, can introduce unwanted contaminants into the tea. A microbiological air filtration system perhaps sounds expensive and complex – don’t worry, it isn’t. For a few dollars you can purchase a 0.22 micron syringe filter and attach it to the airline from the air pump. These syringe filters were developed to filter bacteria and fungi from fluids and air. Via this method you are then able to aerate a micro tea with bacteria and fungi free air.

This isn't compost tea we're making (which are utter shite BTW and definitely shouldn't be used in hydroponics) but microbiological standards are being applied. Another important factor that needs to be considered is that bacteria proliferate far faster than fungi in solution and thereby create a competitive environment for e.g. Trichoderma sp. Bacillus is present in high numbers in the air - you don't want it entering a nutrient tank where it can go wild and diminish the Trichoderma numbers to such a point they become relatively ineffective.

Hope that answers your question.

 

[glow]

Actually Papaduc you're asking some very strange questions. Here's a link to microbes in hydroponics at my site - go read it before asking any more questions. Tell me are you a hydroponic or organic grower? see link http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydroponic-grow-guide/root-disease-prevention-in-hydroponics.html

 

[papaduc]

With respect, I think you're missing the general point of the question.

Doesn't the fact that the reservoir must to be maintained at such standards as to require the air to be filtered to remove airborne pathogens, suggest that bacterial brewing is not the most effective way of maintaining a sterile res/preventative environment in the first place, and that in effect, seeing as how the bacteria are by your own admission used for very little else and nothing to do with the feeding of the plant which is done by chemically chelated nutrients, it would probably be best to ditch the idea completely when growing hydroponically using chemical feeds?

I don't think my questions are that strange to be honest. It just seems like more of a commitment than is worthwhile, seeing as what you're using them for is as a preventative only.

I'm a coco grower btw, chemical nutes, no need for bacteria etc, I have never seen the point.

 

[glow]

With respect, I think you're missing the general point of the question.

Doesn't the fact that the reservoir must to be maintained at such standards as to require the air to be filtered to remove airborne pathogens, suggest that bacterial brewing is not the most effective way of maintaining a sterile res/preventative environment in the first place, and that in effect, seeing as how the bacteria are by your own admission used for very little else and nothing to do with the feeding of the plant which is done by chemically chelated nutrients, it would probably be best to ditch the idea completely when growing hydroponically using chemical feeds?

I don't think my questions are that strange to be honest. It just seems like more of a commitment than is worthwhile, seeing as what you're using them for is as a preventative only.

Oh just picked up your answer.... Then you should be using bennies my man - I wrote the book on coco growing 12 years ago. Your loss - stick to whatever you're doing

 

[papaduc]

Ive been very polite until now answering your moronic agenda laden questions and asked one simple question of you. Are you are hydroponic or organic (shit in shit out) grower? You failed to answer a very simple question.

Go away you fucking idiot. We're done.

And you're the author of a book...

Does it have pictures which pop up when you open it?

I answered your question btw

These are some of my ladies

You can put those in your book by the way. Judging by what you showed earlier you need something photogenic.

 

[glow]

Jesus mate - those are shitty looking plants you've got there. I guess when you look at shit all the time you think shit looks good right? Save the pics for the newbies - you may find a couple of them are impressed.

 

[glow]

Looks like Miraculous Meds had it right about you. Anyway sick of being trolled by fools - catch ya.

 

[bigalthegrower]

I think this thread is officially derailed.....

-Glow
Is there a product that you recommend for introducing beneficial microorganisms into Deep Water Culture?
-bA