MH vs HPS for yield?

[kingaboo2]

its a little off topic but has anyone tryed hps in combination with 7600k flourecent tubes

 

[the gnome]

Look what we did to the dog in no time. From wild man-eating wolf to Chiwawa in no time. People making rapid changes in place of the environment through human selection can have an incredible impact. Just look at the food (fruits and veg) in the grocery store. Everything has been selected for max yields and quality.

and yet, the 1000s or hundreds of thousands of years that evolved dogs into deadly pack killings machines is just under the surface of the *domesticated* dogs of today.

if the apocalypse hit tomorrow and food was not at the local grocery store to be had 24/7 for the owner to get a bag of kibble and bits it would be a matter of less than a few weeks before generations of survival bred in to dogs kicked in and it would literally be a dog eat dog survival of the fittest situation like it was before they were domesticated
the little chihuahua would be the 1st to disappear off the menu.
its a fine line,
all you have to do is scratch the surface and like cheap paint all those years of evolution are exposed and kick in like the past 6 or so thousand years of domestication never existed.


and the above is is something I can correlate with our indoor lighting and plants that ive noticed and backs up my beliefs on hps and the Mh.
while for 20+years many of our current strains have been bred,
out of necessity to adapt and perform indoors under HPS and to a lesser extent Mh in veg/bloom
you see some plants taking to HPS, some to MH and some not taking to it well with certain strains with different kelvin ratings and whether in bloom or veg.
it might be safe to say the majority of strains available have been bred exclusively under HID lighting
BUT!
take all of these plants and toss em out in the sun where their ancestors have evolved forever and just like that they will
thrive and excel better than any hps or Mh lamp ever made.

seems like to get the best results from your plants under lamps is to shoot for one that mimics the suns spectrum.
not some orange or very Blue colored lamp that is a small make up of the suns spectrum.
imo we can only tweak certain things with these bulbs.
the 4000K mh Im using made an impression on me the 1st time I fired it up.
it looks like natural sunlight more than any bulb Ive seen.
my last bloom room was 80% from seed so a lot of different strains going on and almost all killed it under the 4000K
from all the plants, there were maybe 2 or 3 that may have not done well because I used MH an not hps?
coincidence?
or maybe they wouldn't have done any better
or worse under hps?

or maybe they were just under performers

 

[Drek]

..the little chihuahua would be the 1st to disappear off the menu.

I'm not so sure. Maybe the really little dogs might adapt to hiding and hunting rodents, because they know they're small. Maybe more of the med-small dogs would perish, because they would be in conflict to fight or hide..and hiding would be harder!

..take all of these plants and toss em out in the sun where their ancestors have evolved forever and just like that they will
thrive and excel better than any hps or Mh lamp ever made.

Werd.

..seems like to get the best results from your plants under lamps is to shoot for one that mimics the suns spectrum...not some orange or very Blue colored lamp that is a small make up of the suns spectrum. imo we can only tweak certain things with these bulbs.

Werd.

 

[the gnome]

I'm not so sure. Maybe the really little dogs might adapt to hiding and hunting rodents, because they know they're small. Maybe more of the med-small dogs would perish, because they would be in conflict to fight or hide..and hiding would be harder!

good to see you in here with a definite view on things Dreks...I
likes that

 

[DrFever]

We need to focus on what the plant uses in light spectrum,,,,, and not trying to get a spectrum that the sun produces. which is meaning less other then massive heat in your grow room
cause at the end of the day the plant only uses 0.01 percent of the suns energy and to clarify things the yellow in HPS mimics the fall sun on the horizon which is YELLOW these bulb companies spend millions on research more then anyone here will ever make we can sit here and bitch and wine to our bias opinions on which is better MH or HPS when in fact the answer was right in front of everyone all along and for the last 25 years MH for Veg HPS for flower hell i stopped using MH all together no need for them as i find HPS with training works perfect
Gnome you mention once you turned on your mh you saw a difference ??? do you think what you saw in difference is going to make the plant grow better ???? hell the sun produces UVC which hospitals restaurants use to kill germs you think adding uvc to our rooms cause the sun produces it is going to be good for the plants ??? i look at a plant and humans as one we need pretty much the same things NPK to survive sunlight but to much uvc will cause cancer and even tho most is filtered out by our ozone layers so even tho the sun emits UVC is it good for the plants ???? DNA Damage
Ultraviolet light can do damage to the DNA of the plant. These changes in DNA can have very random effects, causing some species of plants to mutate, according to Plant Cell. Also, the cells can die as a result of the DNA damage. To prevent these events, the DNA must be repaired before the DNA is replicated. The DNA is repaired through photoreactivation, excision repair or recombination repair.

UV-B Radiation
Ultraviolet light can also do damage to the plant's physiological processes. UV-B radiation reduces the amount of pollen that the plant is able to release, according to Plant Cell. The UV-B also reduces the biomass of the plant. These plants also experience epidermal deformation and cuticular wax composition. These effects not only come from the DNA damage but also from protein destruction, hormone inactivation and signal transduction, which is a conveyance of signals, through phytochrome. These changes can cause damage to the plant tissue, which can eventually cause plant death.

UV-C Radiation
Some kinds of ultraviolet light can cause more damage to plants than others. UV-C protons are very energetic and are very highly absorbed by the plants, so they can do a lot of damage very quickly, according to Plant Cell. Because of the speed in which the UV-C protons affect the plants, they are usually the rays used to study the affects of UV light on plants.

 

[the gnome]

4000K MH

4000K MH

I've wondered about this for a while now.
Are these plants focused enuff ta know what to take from the spectrum of a 4000K MH bulb?


personally i really don't know and could care less,
but it sure looks good from here


seriously tho folks, whatever works for you does just that......

People can show me all the light graphs they want.... I go off 20 +yrs personal growing experience
vapedg13

.

 

[tokersmoke]

Props gnome.I think there are many different ways to get to the same spot.In the end its all about trying new things to find the YOUR sweet spot.Sometimes its not the size but the motion of the ocean lol.

Thanks for the pics..speaks volumes

 

[the gnome]

I think there are many different ways to get to the same spot.
In the end its all about trying new things to find the YOUR sweet spot.
Sometimes its not the size but the motion of the ocean lol.
Thanks for the pics..speaks volumes

every now and then someone gets it.
ty tokersmoke
the nail just got hit on the head again

post#133

this is my take on it,
and this is what Ive been saying since I started using MH in bloom.
if you like hps and are happy with it... fine
if you like MH and it floats your boat... good
if you see that Mh and HPS combined makes your harvest fine and good... great.

 

[Drek]

We need to focus on what the plant uses in light spectrum,,,,, and not trying to get a spectrum that the sun produces.

Totally disagree. This is the problem with humans, no offense. They think they know what everything on earth supposedly, needs...when what everything needs, is right in front of their f****** noses.

I never bought into that notion (thankfully for my wallet). Extreme red and blue LED's, predominantly orange HPS, etc. NASA not so long ago invented LED X5, because (surprisingly) scientists changed their minds about what a plant supposedly prefers. Guess what X5 resembles?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVNxNVnkBPE

The fact that plants have evolved for how many hundreds of millions of years under the sun, should tell people something about what a plant supposedly prefers.

Occam's Razor.

 

[Drek]

I've wondered about this for a while now. Are these plants are focused enuff ta know what to take from the spectrum of a 4000K MH bulb?

personally i really don't know and could care less,
but it sure looks good from here

seriously tho folks, whatever works for you does just that......
View Image

View Image
View Image
View Image

Very nice. Great job. If you don't mind me asking Gnome, which bulb do you use?

I use a 400 watt CMH (4k), that I'm very happy with.

 

[the gnome]

Totally disagree. This is the problem with humans, no offense. They think they know what everything on earth supposedly, needs...when what everything needs, is right in front of their f****** noses.

I never bought into that notion (thankfully for my wallet). Extreme red and blue LED's, predominantly orange HPS, etc. NASA not so long ago invented LED X5, because (surprisingly) scientists changed their minds about what a plant supposedly prefers. Guess what X5 resembles?

The fact that plants have evolved for how many hundreds of millions of years under the sun, should tell people something about what a plant supposedly prefers.

Occam's Razor.

hi drek and welcome to IC,i
have to agree with you about the problems with *some* humans.
some are so into their own view they' even take or better yet, plagerize data from one source as their own, do a bit of magic on it
so they seem to be the "know it all" in a debate.
seems like only a really disgusting POS ego maniac would do that sort of thing.
but hey! that's life

 

[DrFever]

Totally disagree. This is the problem with humans, no offense. They think they know what everything on earth supposedly, needs...when what everything needs, is right in front of their f****** noses.

I never bought into that notion (thankfully for my wallet). Extreme red and blue LED's, predominantly orange HPS, etc. NASA not so long ago invented LED X5, because (surprisingly) scientists changed their minds about what a plant supposedly prefers. Guess what X5 resembles?

The fact that plants have evolved for how many hundreds of millions of years under the sun, should tell people something about what a plant supposedly prefers.

Occam's Razor.

So You disagree scientists working with plants in a Controlled environment working with various different electromagnetic spectrums appropriate for photosynthesis have not come to the conclusion which spectrum actually stimulates growth response better????? then others in different phases am sorry your Wrong there
IMO grow light companies have done a fine job Tailoring to the needs of plants pretty hard to get a light close to the sun when there are many variables like angle of the sun weather and earths tilt giving us our seasonal values right and different stages around the world of plant phases Seasons
THe Sun has not Changes in millions of millions of years its the same thermonuclear fusion sun from the day it started and will last for millions of millions of years before it dies out
but what has changed is plants surroundings C02 levels , toxic levels of of certain minerals etc Some caused naturally and lots caused by MAN

 

[the gnome]

Very nice. Great job. If you don't mind me asking Gnome, which bulb do you use?

I use a 400 watt CMH (4k), that I'm very happy with.

Ive been using a metalarc sylvania 1000w 4000K MH BT56 bulb.
its really nailing it down tight compared to everything else Ive run in bloom.
the CMHs are also 4000K bulbs and people posting earlier are having great results with em.
I'm not surprised tho, 4000K seem to be the MH sweet spot from personal experinece.
I'm almost ready to give em a go but my sylvies are $21 and the big CDM 850w is about $99
and they don't last as manf. has implied if your running a hi freq. ballast.
Ive never tried so I couldn't say for sure.
Jhhnn has been using em for a while and seem more than happy with his results

 

[Drek]

Thanks Gnome!

@ Fever

Thanks for your reply.

I disagree with people that don't make use of their common sense.
Be it a scientist or whatever, and I value education, believe me.

The beauty about objectivity (the scientific community), is that it doesn't mind being wrong.

Humans, in general, make things far too hard on themselves, and f*** a whole bunch of things up along the way (mostly due to ego and greed...just look at what we're doing to the planet)...until they realize that the original, simple answer was actually the best one all along.

Next people will be telling me that clean spring water actually isn't as good for me vs altered, purified lab created water that looks and tastes like orange plethio-fluid. Based on measurements...it should be better...right? I'll take the natural spring water. Objectivity and statistics are powerful and necessary tools, until they start to obscure basic common sense.

Our sun is best light for plants....period. Have a look at Gnome's grow...mini-sun's everywhere and thick, healthy plants. They look sticky and lush as well.

 

[RB56]

Plants evolved to do their best under the light available to them. That doesn't mean the spectrum available to them is optimal for their needs. Logical fallacy to think otherwise.

 

[DrFever]

Anyways its all good i have used mh and hps together with great results and presently pre setting up my grow room this fall in between 2000 watts will have two 400 watt MH as well as one 300 watt plasma for each 6x6 area of growth 126 watts per Sq foot inprint http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnHglynTIdE

 

[Drek]

Plants evolved to do their best under the light available to them. That doesn't mean the spectrum available to them is optimal for their needs.

Thanks for the reply. Your reply somewhat insinuates that there was more than one light source (for the last 4 billion years) available?

There wasn't.

It DOES mean that what plants have evolved with (for 4 billion years) is the optimal source for their needs. They are the sun....the sun is them.

Anything else, is imo, silly to convince yourself of...no offense.

 

[RB56]

Thanks for the reply. Your reply somewhat insinuates that there was more than one light source (for the last 4 billion years) available?

There wasn't.

It DOES mean that what plants have evolved with (for 4 billion years) is the optimal source for their needs. They are the sun....the sun is them.

Anything else, is imo, silly to convince yourself of...no offense.

Your assumption is without foundation. You are using it as a basis for making conclusions and giving advice. Maybe your condescension is obscuring your view?

More irony still. Even if what you think is implied by evolution were going on, the outcome you are claiming still wouldn't follow. What color is the sun? If it is the perfect light for photosynthesis, photosynthesis must like color and intensity that change with time of day and day of year. What bulb would that be?

Sun works great in no way implies sun works best.
Looks like sun in no way implies works like sun.

You're two steps removed from a reasonable conclusion. No offense

 

[Jhhnn]

I haven't been using the CMH, Gnome, but as we've discussed, I'm very interested in them. Rives gets great results with 'em, as do some others, apparently. I've been using the plantmax 1000w dual arc & am quite pleased. I ordered up some 330's from the source I posted in the CMH thread, plan to use 'em for the wife's houseplants & my veg cab. Maybe add a couple in vert if I get the cooling right on my scheduled rework. Anybody truly interested in the 860's should jump on that deal like a monkey on a cupcake. Buy 6 lamps for the retail price of 1-1/2.

 

[Catatafish]

Acridlab, how did the solis 4k turn out for you?

Would like to give this a go but dont think i can run gnomes slyvania (due to vert) without a minisplit to get heat down. Would love to try it with the open parabolics though once i get to that point. $21 bucks a bulb, LOL, sign me up!