We Never Perceive Reality Directly

[mr.brunch]

fair enough. so what does this mean to us as individuals?

 

[Sat X RB]

YES! what you say SEEMS to be true for me.

except for the sense of smell (which I have been told by credible authorities) is hard wired to the reptile part of our brain. so the experience of smell is IMMEDIATE. (this is why it can be so evocative.)

However, how we explain or interpret what we have smelled is ... like you say.

by the way: Assumptions make an ASS [out of] U [and] ME.

Ha, Ha. Cheers from Oz!

 

[southflorida]

fair enough. so what does this mean to us as individuals?

Well Mr.Brunch this means that we believe and assume that we have the ability to perceive reality DIRECTLY, in other words, we believe and assume that what we see, hear, smell, feel, think, etc. IS reality, when in actuality all of our perceptions are NOT primary, they are ALWAYS secondary, and what we are perceiving is NOT reality but instead they are our beliefs and assumptions.

...we are NEVER perceiving what IS.

...but we think, believe, and assume we are perceiving what IS.

...this obviously leads to us living inside a lie, and thus experiencing never-ending consequences like emptiness, self-doubt, feeling trapped, and MANY MANY MORE which all can be summed up as suffering. To get through the day, while putting up with this suffering, we also STRUGGLE endlessly.

By the way, this means that whatever we consider to be our "self" that we are living AS, is also 100% conceptual, and based 100% on beliefs and assumptions.

We consider our "self" to be real, to be something that we ARE, while in reality, this "self" is 100% conceptual and has been created by us with a little help from our friends (culture/society).

Our perceptions have been designed, for one purpose and one purpose only. This purpose is "self-survival."

Considering that the "self" is 100% conceptual, what we actually have is "self" protecting "self."

This is the human condition, and there is no way out through the use of our perceptions, because we can't directly experience reality using our perceptions.

We, as CONSCIOUSNESS/BEING are ALWAYS directly experiencing reality (truth) on a moment to moment basis, but our attention is on what we perceive, because as a "self" - that we mistakenly believe and assume that we are - ALL WE EVER DO IS attempt to "SURVIVE."

The saddest part is that as a false "self" we won't survive, so we have been foked over by our self-mind, and on a moment-to-moment basis are running toward what IS-NOT and will never BE...

...instead of simply enjoying and BEING happy with what we have right now at the present moment.

Which reminds me of a thread I started on happiness, not so long ago:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=246092

It is a three part post, it is quite long, but it goes into a lot of detail what it really means to be happy.

 

[southflorida]

YES! what you say SEEMS to be true for me.

except for the sense of smell (which I have been told by credible authorities) is hard wired to the reptile part of our brain. so the experience of smell is IMMEDIATE. (this is why it can be so evocative.)

However, how we explain or interpret what we have smelled is ... like you say.

It is still secondary since it goes through the brain. This is an indirect perception. This is what I'm calling interpretation. The second part which is meaning is based on beliefs and assumptions. And the last part which is the emotional charge (fear, anger, pleasure, etc.) is created by us in order to know how to act in relation to whatever we perceive in our moment to moment experiences.

by the way: Assumptions make an ASS [out of] U [and] ME.

Yes, they sure foking do!

 

[Sat X RB]

It is still secondary since it goes through the brain. This is an indirect perception. This is what I'm calling interpretation. The second part which is meaning is based on beliefs and assumptions. And the last part which is the emotional charge (fear, anger, pleasure, etc.) is created by us in order to know how to act in relation to whatever we perceive in our moment to moment experiences.

No. I think I 'm saying opposite to you.

the body creates emotions. we can only RE-create emotions if we think first about the experience that caused them.

the body automatically creates emotions as responses to environmental factors. this is what Psychology calls 'somatic response'.

how we behave in response to those emotions depends on the way we think about how we are feeling.

altho feelings are idiosyncratic, discrete and immediate, thinking can recall them ... allowing us to feel what we did in the first place all over again, and again, and again ... like a ptsd sufferer can ... or like someone who wallows in memories can ...


This makes me think of Carlos Castaneda's statement that: it is the compulsion of Man to categorise and make inventories.

so I won't continue demonstrating compulsive behaviour ...

cheers anyway Cobber. our human circumstance certainly needs thinking about.

 

[southflorida]

No. I think I 'm saying opposite to you.

we can't 'create' emotions unless we think first about the experience that caused them.

the body automatically creates emotions as responses to environmental factors. this is what Psychology calls 'somatic response'.

how we behave in response to those emotions is due to the way we think about how we are feeling.

altho feelings are originally discrete and immediate, thinking can recall feelings ... and we can feel what we did in the first place all over again, and again, and again ... like a ptsd sufferer can ... or like someone who wallows in memories can ... but first we have to be thinking about the original experience.

Everything you described above talks about secondary processes, and NOT about experiencing reality directly.

ALL of our perceptions are secondary processes, there are no exceptions to this. This is a known scientific fact, and I described it in simple terms in the original post, so I am not going to type all that here again.

My main point is that we NEVER directly experience reality through our organs of perceptions, that we directly experience reality AS what we really ARE ==>> Consciousness/Being.

anyway, my motto is ... watch where you're goin not where you been!

i don't have a motto...but I like focusing on the present moment...since it is the only moment that exists

and: it is the compulsion of Man to categorise and make inventories (Carlos Castaneda said that).

I like Castaneda, and I especially like Don Juan, or to be more exact, I like what Castaneda wrote in his books about what Don Juan told him during their experiences in Mexico. I read all his books...btw...when was young.

 

[thcglory]

Yes correct what is IS.
nc1 pal

 

[epicbud]

If you can stop thinking for a moment (or few) and just be aware of everything (everything that happens inside and outside: silence, sounds, your thoughts, feelings, memories...=EVERYTHING) and not react to that, something new happens. Something that becomes greater than anything you've experienced before, better and more important than ANY experience you've had. Even better than LSD, mushrooms, sex, wealth, love...you name it. That cannot be explained with thoughts and speech, but once realized it absorbs everything else. The more you stay silent and without thinking but still fully awake and aware the more you will see of that.

 

[southflorida]

If you can stop thinking for a moment (or few) and just be aware of everything (everything that happens inside and outside: silence, sounds, your thoughts, feelings, memories...=EVERYTHING) and not react to that, something new happens. Something that becomes greater than anything you've experienced before, better and more important than ANY experience you've had. Even better than LSD, mushrooms, sex, wealth, love...you name it. That cannot be explained with thoughts and speech, but once realized it absorbs everything else. The more you stay silent and without thinking but still fully awake and aware the more you will see of that.

to stop thinking is possible, but not an easy thing to accomplish because our perceptions have one goal, and one goal only: SURVIVAL

so, our self-mind will not co-operate in stopping the thinking process, since the self-mind is producing it with a purpose of helping our conceptual "self" (this includes the physical body) to survive

it is a step-by-step process and does take some contemplation in order to arrive at a point where all the thinking stops

since we ARE Consciousness/Being and our conceptual "self" is simply a distinction inside of Consciousness/Being...we can STOP making the distinction of our conceptual "self."

but, this is unlikely.

Most folks will want to continue to exist and continue to experience some aspects of their conceptual "self."

because if one eliminates the distinction "self" completely - the entity that we believe and assume that we ARE - will vanish.

 

[Sat X RB]

I see the problem with your rave Mr South Florida to be ... that you seem not to experience feelings immediately.

and this lack of connection with your body ... this lack of immediacy ... affects your view of existence.

I say the body generates feelings before the brain gets into the act. for example, you turn round and there's a bus doing 60 miles an hour about to hit you. the body will generate a feeling called FEAR and the body will react and jump out of the way. during that short time there will have been NO thoughts ... no filtering and translating of experience into word play.

and the other problem with your proposition is the term 'reality'. you speak of reality as if it's a thing or object.

well, it's not. it's a notion ... or to use a post-modernist term ... a REIFICATION. that is: something that is 'real' only when we think of it. like 'divorce', or 'true love', or 'freedom' or 'democracy'.

those things are all fancies that are meaningless when the shit is hitting the fan.

so I reckon, until you learn which are feelings ... and which are thinkings ... you need to desist from ramming idiosyncratic logic down our metaphysical throats.

however, I 'd still be happy to share a joint with you. cheers, Sir!

 

[southflorida]

Sat X RB...you are quite a funny personality, and it will be a pleasure for me to go over your comments and explain a little more in detail about the insights that have been made by me in the last 28 years of studying about the true nature of Consciousness/Being.

I see the problem with your rave Mr South Florida to be ... that you seem not to experience feelings immediately.

and this lack of connection with your body ... this lack of immediacy ... affects your view of existence.

Our feeling ARE 100% conceptual, meaning they are produced by the mind.

I say the body generates feelings before the brain gets into the act. for example, you turn round and there's a bus doing 60 miles an hour about to hit you. the body will generate a feeling called FEAR and the body will react and jump out of the way. during that short time there will have been NO thoughts ... no filtering and translating of experience into word play.

You perceive the bus doing 60 mph and about to hit you, so what actually happens in your experience?

#1 - first you interpret the object (i.e. classify it) => bus travelling fast about to hit you

#2 - then your mind provides this interpretation with a meaning => if you don't get out the way it will hit you and most likely kill you

#3 - third and last, you send an emotional charge to your body to get the fok out the way.

All three of these steps are Conceptual, and it is all happening in your mind

and the other problem with your proposition is the term 'reality'. you speak of reality as if it's a thing or object.

well, it's not. it's a notion ... or to use a post-modernist term ... a REIFICATION. that is: something that is 'real' only when we think of it. like 'divorce', or 'true love', or 'freedom' or 'democracy'.

those things are all fancies that are meaningless when the shit is hitting the fan.

Reality is what IS. We don't know and can't know what reality is, we can only directly experience it. Reality is NOT a concept. It cannot be perceived, since perception is a secondary process and only an interpretation and representation of what is really there.

You obviously didn't read my first post where I describe everything in detail about the difference between reality and perception.

so I reckon, until you learn which are feelings ... and which are thinkings ... you need to desist from ramming idiosyncratic logic down our metaphysical throats.

It is a choice of this forum's members to read my posts or not, obviously there is no way to ram anything down anyone's throats in a public forum.

however, I 'd still be happy to share a joint with you. cheers, Sir!

...this goes without saying, after all this is ICMAG

 

[epicbud]

to stop thinking is possible, but not an easy thing to accomplish because our perceptions have one goal, and one goal only: SURVIVAL

That probably holds true for the majority of human population, BUT if you take a better look at our present situation, you will see that: we already have enough to eat, so why does LIFE = SURVIVAL, still ? Isn't that the thing of the past? Take this moment NOW. You have enough food to allow yourself to stop thinking for a few hours every day. So the problem is not in the external world, but in human EGO that hasn't adapted yet to the 'new' possibilities of the Self growth. Our egos still live in the long gone world of competition/survival, which at this moment in time, only exists in our minds.

so, our self-mind will not co-operate in stopping the thinking process, since the self-mind is producing it with a purpose of helping our conceptual "self" (this includes the physical body) to survive

it is a step-by-step process and does take some contemplation in order to arrive at a point where all the thinking stops

Yes, usually it's not easy, but it becomes easier as you work on it, like with any other thing in life. Thus it's called 'WORK on one's self'

since we ARE Consciousness/Being and our conceptual "self" is simply a distinction inside of Consciousness/Being...we can STOP making the distinction of our conceptual "self."

but, this is unlikely.

Most folks will want to continue to exist and continue to experience some aspects of their conceptual "self."

because if one eliminates the distinction "self" completely - the entity that we believe and assume that we ARE - will vanish.

The thing is that this new self is infinitely greater than the old conceptual self. Only a mad man would miss/deny opportunity for infinite evolution.

 

[southflorida]

That probably holds true for the majority of human population, BUT if you take a better look at our present situation, you will see that: we already have enough to eat, so why does LIFE = SURVIVAL, still ? Isn't that the thing of the past? Take this moment NOW. You have enough food to allow yourself to stop thinking for a few hours every day. So the problem is not in the external world, but in human EGO that hasn't adapted yet to the 'new' possibilities of the Self growth. Our egos still live in the long gone world of competition/survival, which at this moment in time, only exists in our minds.

Survival is ALL we ever do. There is NOTHING outside of it - at least as far as our perceptions are concerned.

When physical survival is not in question (which is most of the time for many folks, although there are quite a few starving souls in this world) the SOCIAL survival kicks in right away, without us even noticing.

People living in modern society are busy with SOCIAL SURVIVAL, and even things that have to do with physical survival have a social survival added on top, for example, food, you have super markets with a trillion of all kinds of different brands, a roof over our head, can be a one room apartment or a 50 million $$$ mansion, and so on, and so on.

At this very moment, what we are doing here in THIS forum is straight-up social survival

In this thread below, in three long posts I explain what social survival is. Don't know if you like reading about this kind of stuff, but that info breaks it down pretty well...imho

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=247680

Yes, usually it's not easy, but it becomes easier as you work on it, like with any other thing in life. Thus it's called 'WORK on one's self'

self is a concept, there is really no such thing, except as a bunch of beliefs and assumptions in your mind.

The thing is that this new self is infinitely greater than the old conceptual self. Only a mad man would miss/deny opportunity for infinite evolution.

new or old...self is 100% conceptual.

In fact, I would go as far as saying that our entire is 100% conceptual, because it is created through distinctions.

Our Consciousness makes distinctions between stuff, and that is how this virtual reality is created.

 

[southflorida]

As always, some will like it some not.

But, this video is Thomas Campbell, a scientist that worked for NASA at one time talking about REALITY being INFORMATION.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hzSjnPikIU&feature=relmfu

and his two part Interview where he drops some outrageously shocking insights...imho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=punQxHCve0o&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nCp2zqRsQw&feature=relmfu

Check out his channel and his book that can be read free on Google Books:

http://books.google.com/books?id=RY..._esc=y#v=onepage&q=my big toe trilogy&f=false

The book is called My Big Theory of Everything, and it is long as shit!

 

[thcglory]

NASA claimed they have/had an alien working for them.
According to an ex employee ..
The name burt Schneider ?? or somebody schneider Springs to mind.Hmmn
Ltr with info.

 

[Jbonez]

Great thread, tho you clearly have more faith in the cognitive prowess of the average person than I... Typically, this information is "devils work"..

I agree btw, just dont understand why you are appealing to the masses, only NT's understand this, from my experience...

 

[siftedunity]

mmm.. im not sure why you have this revelation about perception.

yes sure, we ''see'' or at least we experience vision through sensory perception. so like you said, reflected light from an object is interpreted by our eyes, then nerves to the brain and processed into something we regonise as ''seeing''.

we studied this age 15 in school. its not a profound vision or subject -anyone whos around 25 years and under most likely covered this in school.

eitherway... this is is why we have a conflict of belief SF, because if your gonna be philosophical or get scientific you need to step back and see it from every angle.


i took different subjects over the years including chemistry and biology media studies etc. the reason i add that is because i remember when we were studying advertising in media studies which reminds me of this point of yours.
if for example, a crime is commited. and the police officer asks 3 different witnesses what they saw and writes it down.

although they may all be telling the truth, their perception of events may be slightly different. so in essence there is no such thing as the truth. all the ''truth'' consists of is a person's or perception.
so the word truth is basically a loose term is you split hairs but il get back to that.

you argue that we dont live in a reality... well it depends how you want to look at it. reality is a man made word. we invented it to describe the consciousness we live in. reality exists with mans existance. without us the word has no meaning thus reality wouldnt exist.

so you are really questioning the words which make up our understanding of the word. they are tools, you can argue that they dont mean much which is partly true. but your emphasis is on the meaning of the words rather than the concept it seems.

coming back to ''seeing'' or vision
well, you say we only see light etc that was your point. well if i see something as green, it is green, if i touch something that feels solid, then it is.
so actually everything i perceive is what it is. because humans invented all the words which i use to describe those sensory perceptions. other people may say ''hard'' rather than ''solid'' but thats a language thing.
if we ceased to exist none of these things would exist because they have no meaning without us. the universe exists because we are here to exist in it. our perception is our reality, its the only reality there is for us. if we didnt exist would the universe exist? does it matter? because if we didnt exist it could be real or not, it doesnt matter because there would be no one to see that it wasnt there.
similar to that other thing people say. if a tree falls in the woods and no one saw it, how do you know it fell? its all pointless.
the only thing that matters is whatever and however we have come to be here, wether we are in the matrix or whatever you want to perceive as your own reality, we can feel happyness, we can cry, we can smile, we feel love, we hate. wether its real or not you can watch a beautiful sunset in summer drinking a beer enjoying the company.. if thats not real? fuck it i like not being real!! enjoy it!
i think therefore i am (René Descartes). thats all thats important.


rant over.

 

[siftedunity]

just to quickly add, your title is completely flawed.

how can we not ''Perceive Reality Directly'' its flawed before you even question it. whos reality is it we need to be perceiving? the statment cancels itself out.

 

[southflorida]

Great thread, tho you clearly have more faith in the cognitive prowess of the average person than I...

you're right, and have made an excellent observation, I write this stuff because it helps me to actually see my thoughts on the monitor, and also to get feedback from open-minded people on icmag, like you...for example

plus, in my day to day experience, my wife is the only person willing to even listen to this shit

Typically, this information is "devils work"..

...tell me about it...majority don't want to hear about this kind of stuff

I agree btw, just dont understand why you are appealing to the masses, only NT's understand this, from my experience...

NT? Who is that?

I'm appealing to icmag members because believe it or not, there is quite a few folks in this forum that actually like this topic, even if they won't come straight out and say it in the public part of the forum.

...thanks for the visit bro!

 

[southflorida]

@sifted unity...I'm going to answer your post as soon as have some time today, nice to see you in this thread...btw