If it doesn't Shatter, it doesn't matter! Tribute to Jolly Rancher Amber Glass Thread

[medicalgreen]

I reported about bleeding pistils in thread “Theory about oil color and density” posts #20,25
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2158410&postcount=20
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2161447&postcount=25
(Quote)
For sure there are few reasons witch cause different changes of color.

The color bleeding from pistils seems to be pioneering before oxidation & UV.

These trichs were found in a cavern after alco-wash.
They weren’t heated or UV-exposed nor even opened, but they are already colored with red pistils’ color.

I’m sure that UV doesn’t play any role in case of my studies. There is no UV in my kitchen in the evening in winter.
To be more correct - it’s too little UV here to be considered as a reason of color changes.
(End of quote)
- - -

ICMagger gunnaknow suggested the role of pigments in the coloration of the extract into the red.
-“Red pistills aren't the only culprit for the red colour in oil …
The red colour is probably largely to do with carotenoids and perhaps also anthocyanins.” (click)

I know little about the pigments and their behavior, but I am confident in the significant role of oxidation.

Effect of oxidation on the color change is well illustrated by the dark color of the resin,
ethanol extracted from the filters that were used to obtain resin amber.

- - -

Even earlier, in 2008 thread “Resin Tear Drop from clear to red” (click) ,
I registered the change of color of sap from the clear light yellow to dark red during the half-year of storage in a dark place at room temperature.
Those photos are located in the old gallery. I could not shift them here in the form of thumbnails.

I think that's oxidation is the cause of the appearance of dark color in decarboxylate THC,
which should be colorless, as Sam reports about this.




Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to make these experiments in an inert atmosphere.

Green shatter for me was a miracle for which I have not found an explanation,

I was not surprised by its fragility, but surprised the color, I have not figured out how did chlorophyll got there through non-polar butane.

Jump, I'm not kidding....YOU, my friend, deserve an award!! You are truly scientific, and pioneering. I have utmost respect for you, and your work! You are a real hero of mine, and I have tremendous respect for you.

Not disrespect intended towards anyone else, of course. Especially, Gray Wolf....my other hero. You are both truly scientific pioneers, and I salute you both! Sincerely!

I just sit in awe at the dedication and perserverance and intense knowledge and appreciation of the sacred herb, that some here aspire to.

Thank you all, actually!

But I just want to thank Jump, here, for being my primary inspiration. You have inspired me to go further, and to do better, for myself, and my fellow man.

 

[medicalgreen]

I sometimes get an electric green background hue to an otherwise golden extraction, when viewed in natural sunlight, smeared in a thin film of glass.

I have always ass-um-ed that it was because Butane is not completely insoluble in water with only four carbons in the chain.

The MSDS's show water solubility at about 15% or around 61mg/Liter. Pentane with its 5 carbon chain, and the other longer chain Alkanes above it, are shown as insoluble in water.

Thanks Gray Wolf,
You make me wish I had paid better attention in Chemistry class in High School. I should have known it would come in handy one day. lol Especially since I was selling pot back then. I f only I had known what would be the future.
Hey just FYI, I understand maybe 70% of what you write, but the rest is code to me. maybe you could elaborate just slightly more, for those of us, who have zero chem background. Just a little bit more detail, is probably all we need to benefit more, from your masterful work.
Thank you, Gray Wolf!

 

[medicalgreen]

QWISO= Quick shake ISO extract, if yours was dark, you did it for WAY too long. Most peeps I know do it 15-20 seconds max, turns out a golden color that way. Next time, don't leave the trim in the ISO for longer than 15-20 seconds...

Interesting thread. I myself prefer shatter to budder, and with my vacuum purging method, it doesn't taste not one bit of 'tane. It's all in how well you purge the oil, IMHFO...

he he, I thought I enjoyed shatter more, overall. Now i'm reconsidering it. I think shatter is much better for daytime, and budder much better for night. Budder seems to be stronger in it's body effect, to me so far, but shatter is MUCH more functional for daytime and uplifting for the mind. I think they both are GREAT extracts and because of decarb occurring, I think it's a matter of preference for the time/situation. I'm making both now.

Love the comments and opinions, and knowledge... please keep them coming.

BTW, I find Budder has much less flavor than shatter, likely due to decarb and terpenoids being released. It's also slightly smoother I think. Not sure though, if there is any real difference in smoothness.

 

[medicalgreen]

I noticed that during the process of taking shatter to budder, there is a fine line, and everything can be destroyed to a sticky gooey non shattery non buddery mess. Be careful out there, it's a vicious world!

 

[medicalgreen]

Thanks for this info/ clairification! and especially for the links!!! I have not seen those before! you just keep makin my day jump..
:yay:

Did you ever read GW Pharma's recipe for THC crystal, daheadies?

It explains a process that's 100% in reverse of our process!
Baking complete decarb in oven before extraction and then to THCA crystal.....Did you know that?

What do people make of that? How can that be possible if decarb has already occurred? Can anyone explain this in a way we can all understand? I think its a mystery like the rotation of the solar system.

???

How can shatter be possible if oven baked prior?

Anyone???

 

[medicalgreen]

Analysis by GC does not give THCA values, because it is converted to THC in the process. Is anyone who does HPLC offering cannabis analysis? Of course 98% is difficult to believe. If this figure is on paper maybe they are selling what people want to hear to build their business. They have nothing to lose.



This oxidation and an inability to overcome it is the reason why cannabis extract was abandoned long ago as a medicine in the US and the UK after initial interest and distribution - not early drug control efforts - and is in its current regulatory position. If it were more stable, cannabis extract might now be just another old discontinued pharmacy drug no one has any interest in.

Small amounts of polar molecules make chlorophyll soluble in nonpolars, and it especially wouldn't be surprising if fresh material that was roughly handled (breaking cell walls and releasing volatile polars) and soon extracted with butane was green, instead of the familiar THCA/beta-carotene/lutein yellow. There is the use of charcoal to remove the green, perhaps it can be adsorbed from nonpolar solvent on dried calcium carbonate, perhaps precipitated by mixing solutions of calcium chloride ice-melt and baking soda.

Another GREAT Mind chiming in.....Thanks G.O. Joe!

 

[Gray Wolf]

Thanks Gray Wolf,
You make me wish I had paid better attention in Chemistry class in High School. I should have known it would come in handy one day. lol Especially since I was selling pot back then. I f only I had known what would be the future.
Hey just FYI, I understand maybe 70% of what you write, but the rest is code to me. maybe you could elaborate just slightly more, for those of us, who have zero chem background. Just a little bit more detail, is probably all we need to benefit more, from your masterful work.
Thank you, Gray Wolf!

You are welcome!

Please ask about what I have inadequately explained, so that I may learn from my mistakes. In my ineptitude, I am doing my best to convey my thoughts, but clearly sometimes fall short of the mark.

Yeah, what you said about Jump! I have learned a bunch from him as well!

Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

PS: Thanks to extremely knowlegable GO Joe as well!

 

[medicalgreen]

Why isn't shatter or budder in many medical clubs?

Why isn't shatter or budder in many medical clubs?

I have been going to clubs, for years now, and find consistently, that this product, either shatter or budder is not in most clubs. I always wondered why and figured there would be a market for it. Now I understand why there is not. There is more money in making concentrates with impuritiers in them, because people do not realize what they are paying for. So clubs cannot pay that much more for something they cannot tell the difference between, and the members cannot, for the most part, either.

Someone can easily make more dough $$ converting to bubble hash, or cookies from butter, than to make extracts like these, economically. It's like the people who grow organically, rather than hydro, regardless of the lack of quantity, they are out for sheer quality, instead of hard cash.

It will always remain a niche, I suspect. But for those can make it for themselves.....HOORAY!

This is a sad fact, because it's not economical at all, for anyone to make this, then take it to a club. Both amber glass shatter and budder will remain, for the most part, in private hands of those who make it for themselves. I cannot afford to bring it to clubs, for what they are willing to pay, and I suspect most others would not, unless they were extremely hard up for cash, for pennies on the dollar. It's a shame because clubs want to make 50% nowadays, and no person can afford to bring this to clubs for $25 a gram or less considering the costs involved unless they have tons of high quality bud trim popcorn for free.

I think this is one product that will always be in the hands of the few and proud. and not to mention...happy and well stoned!

When prices come down for pot, drastically, then I imagine this will be available more often and for more people.

 

[Gray Wolf]

I have been going to clubs, for years now, and find consistently, that this product, either shatter or budder is not in most clubs. I always wondered why and figured there would be a market for it. Now I understand why there is not. There is more money in making concentrates with impuritiers in them, because people do not realize what they are paying for.

Until patient tastes and preferences support refined oils, less volume at a higher unit price is unlikely to be popular anywhere.

How many people do you know that can blindly tell the taste difference between BHO,QWET, and QWISO, without even addressing cannabis oil refinement into absolutes?

In our classes, after passing around vaporized samples of 8 different extraction and alchemy techniques, 7 of which we demonstrate, there is never an argument that one or the other tastes bad, only which one is the best.

I'm thinking that before we see the issue of refined tastes, on the whole we first have to expose the folks to the different choices, so that their discrimination can evolve.

We do that with pro bono classes locally, just for shits, giggles, and personal satisfaction, but ask that more of ya'll that are able, do the same to educate the folks world wide, so that the movement grows?

Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[juicepuddle]

I have been going to clubs, for years now, and find consistently, that this product, either shatter or budder is not in most clubs. I always wondered why and figured there would be a market for it. Now I understand why there is not. There is more money in making concentrates with impuritiers in them, because people do not realize what they are paying for. So clubs cannot pay that much more for something they cannot tell the difference between, and the members cannot, for the most part, either.

Someone can easily make more dough $$ converting to bubble hash, or cookies from butter, than to make extracts like these, economically. It's like the people who grow organically, rather than hydro, regardless of the lack of quantity, they are out for sheer quality, instead of hard cash.

It will always remain a niche, I suspect. But for those can make it for themselves.....HOORAY!

This is a sad fact, because it's not economical at all, for anyone to make this, then take it to a club. Both amber glass shatter and budder will remain, for the most part, in private hands of those who make it for themselves. I cannot afford to bring it to clubs, for what they are willing to pay, and I suspect most others would not, unless they were extremely hard up for cash, for pennies on the dollar. It's a shame because clubs want to make 50% nowadays, and no person can afford to bring this to clubs for $25 a gram or less considering the costs involved unless they have tons of high quality bud trim popcorn for free.

I think this is one product that will always be in the hands of the few and proud. and not to mention...happy and well stoned!

When prices come down for pot, drastically, then I imagine this will be available more often and for more people.

You seem to have been reading my mind and then posted it! Nice lol. I agree 100% I consider myself a glass hunter to be honest, and I have never found glass I would consider properly purged, if its from a club it always leaves something to be desired, and my poor poor lungs

I also have to add in that most people I talk to at clubs have no idea what it is or have never even heard of it ROFL, when I explain what it is they looks baffled, I have been looking and looking, so far I have found 7 or 8 strains of glass three of them I went back to buy many grams.

But the availability is very inconsistent(like you mention), and sometimes one club stops getting it and another will begin carrying the same(probably due to prices)

After countless grams at 45 - 60$ a buy I can still say I need to just make my own if I ever want a clean concentrate. And to be honest finding really nice purged hard hitting oil that isnt stable can sometimes be just as hard :/

 

[G.O. Joe]

BTW this solid form can probably be kept a long time sealed in the freezer without problems.

Did you ever read GW Pharma's recipe for THC crystal, daheadies?

It explains a process that's 100% in reverse of our process!
Baking complete decarb in oven before extraction and then to THCA crystal.....Did you know that?

What do people make of that? How can that be possible if decarb has already occurred? Can anyone explain this in a way we can all understand? I think its a mystery like the rotation of the solar system.

???

How can shatter be possible if oven baked prior?

Anyone???

You do not get THCA back after decarboxylation; GW Pharma decarboxylates for extraction yield. THC's phenol function can be brought into play in a limited way with a simple base such as KOH (examples 36-39 of the interesting US6730519, EDIT - They say THC content there but they are apparently using high-THCA material. So this separation may be due less to the phenol than the carboxyl.), but there isn't any simple way to get purish THC after decarboxylation unless you start with purish THCA; "winterization" and etc. removal of things insoluble in whatever is a desirable step though. I wonder if boiling the insolubles with water would steam distill terpenes, showing that they are in the goo. I suspect that the terpene molecules absorb oxygen easily in air and release it as peroxide, becoming a stronger oxidizer than the air. Some rather nasty chemicals are used in patents and journals to form crystalline derivatives of THC for the purpose of purification, by chemically putting certain groups on THC's phenol, which can then be removed later in some simple process. This purified THC will be a gum at best since natural THC is apparently not crystalline, though synthetic racemic THC is.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Which lab? 98% is pretty high for an oil. Anyone else have their shatter or amber or budder tested? Would be nice if you tested the same shatter at the three best labs to see if the results showed any differences. I have doubts about 98% purity, but maybe...
The highest we made was 96% that was a quick ethanol sonicated extraction cleaned up with a PET/water washing to remove any wax or other shit. We used dry sifted resin over 50% THC to start with. Came out light reddish almost solid.

Also why do you think that just drying herb will decarboxylate the THCA to THC? I have not found that to be true even after a year or two of storing herb at room temperatures most of the THC was still THCA.


To anyone that has tried THC acetate, is the high different or just stronger?
-SamS

My buddy got his amber tested at a highly respected lab... tested out at 98%thc..
he uses dry trim im pretty sure, which is why its not thca

 

[Gray Wolf]

Which lab? 98% is pretty high for an oil. Anyone else have their shatter or amber or budder tested? Would be nice if you tested the same shatter at the three best labs to see if the results showed any differences. I have doubts about 98% purity, but maybe...
The highest we made was 96% that was a quick ethanol sonicated extraction cleaned up with a PET/water washing to remove any wax or other shit. We used dry sifted resin over 50% THC to start with. Came out light reddish almost solid.

Also why do you think that just drying herb will decarboxylate the THCA to THC? I have not found that to be true even after a year or two of storing herb at room temperatures most of the THC was still THCA.


To anyone that has tried THC acetate, is the high different or just stronger?
-SamS

The acetate high is heady and different but I don't know that it is any stronger, only that it arrives almost immediately full bore, so that it is perceived as stronger. All that has changed as near as I can tell is that it passes the blood brain barrier more readily.

It has however mildly ODed several high tolerance panel testers, where the oil that it was made from failed in that regard.

The OD was heady, and after lying down and marveling at the clouds for 30 minutes or so, their discombobulating OD symptoms subsided.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

So if I understand right it is faster in onset? Are the peaks higher? Does it last longer? Anything else different? I find this interesting. Thanks for the info.
-SamS

The acetate high is heady and different but I don't know that it is any stronger, only that it arrives almost immediately full bore, so that it is perceived as stronger. All that has changed as near as I can tell is that it passes the blood brain barrier more readily.

It has however mildly ODed several high tolerance panel testers, where the oil that it was made from failed in that regard.

The OD was heady, and after lying down and marveling at the clouds for 30 minutes or so, their discombobulating OD symptoms subsided.

 

[MOneYMiKe]

good info here....thanks friends...yummy amber's.......

 

[Gray Wolf]

Good question Sam! May I answer it two ways and ramble on the second?

First, if you rounded up 100 people off the street and had them test vaporized cannabis oil vis a vis cannabis acetate, they would most likely tell you that without question, acetate is several times stronger and got them higher.

Our panel testing with ultra high tolerance patients suggests that it is probably not more potent, it just arrives so fast and strongly that it is perceived as such.

Overall panel testing suggested that in general, the head response is fast and strong, but the body response is weaker when cannabis acetate is vaporized. That suggests that at least some of the CBD may have also been isomerized into THC by the acetic process.

It also comes on faster and stronger than plain oil when used in orally or in topical meds.

The peaks do appear to be briefly higher due to their fast arrival (rush), but the peak effect tapers off within a few minutes for me and about thirty minutes was what it took me personally to recover from enough of an OD that I experienced nausea.

The rest of the effect appears to hang on for about as long as the oil it was made from does.

Those of us high tolerance patients whom tested to OD, were also already medicated when we started testing, so the tests were skewed, although testing for effects-over- ride historically hasn't produced ODs amongst the same high tolerance testers.

The sudden response appeared responsible for the OD's, but my own sudden fondness for clouds, replete with a deep insight into their meaning, and accompanied by mild nausea, only lasted 30 minutes or so and I was again functional.

 

[daheadies]

Greywolf- you conducted a off the street panel to see whats better?
hah- your awesome..
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Gray Wolf again."
When you say "CBD may have also been isomerized into THC by the acetic process." does that mean that the CBD may have split off into the THCA molecule?


Skunkman, ill get back to you on exactly which lab it was..

 

[Gray Wolf]

Greywolf- you conducted a off the street panel to see whats better?
hah- your awesome..
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Gray Wolf again."
When you say "CBD may have also been isomerized into THC by the acetic process." does that mean that the CBD may have split off into the THCA molecule?


Skunkman, ill get back to you on exactly which lab it was..

We use volunteer patient panels, instead of off the street test panels.

It has never been an issue finding or keeping volunteers and we are able to test low, medium, and high tolerance patients for effect. If you belong to a local forum, put up a post requesting testers and watch how many volunteers you have by days end.

Yeah, I get the same message a lot on reputation, because the same key people make a disproportionate number of the illuminating posts that I respond to in this Resin forum.

No I mean that the CBD may have been converted to THC, as opposed to THCA.

The acetate is made by reflux boiling the cannabis oil in acetic anhydride and sulfuric acid, and isomerization is also done by reflux boiling the cannabis oil in sulfuric acid.

 

[Honkytonk]

Also why do you think that just drying herb will decarboxylate the THCA to THC? I have not found that to be true even after a year or two of storing herb at room temperatures most of the THC was still THCA.

I just put 1gr. of bud that was stored at room temp in an air tight jar for 7 months in 25ml of 80%Vol. / 160 proof rum. No heating.
Will filter and drink later. Shouldn't get me high, right?
Report follows...

edit: ~1h later all trichome heads have dissolved in the rum. Filtered and drank it...
edit: Another hour later and I got a rather hefty high going. This bud decarboxylated pretty good in 7 months at room temp..

edit: Another day... 1gr of the same bud heated for 30mins at 120°C then made same extract as above.
The effects show very clearly that 7 months old dried bud, stored at room temp. is only partially decarboxylated.

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

This is a statement and question at the same time; meaning I think I'm right, but maybe gray wolf could school me.

If you sit a bud out in jar for 7 months a lot of the THC or THCA has changed into cbd and cbn I think; so I wouldn't exactly call it decarboxylated, because that suggests that it went though a heating process right? I think it's just considered the regular half-life process of the molecules, or what we call curing.