Feminized Seeds Vs Standard

[dank.frank]

Rick...let me get this right...you are saying the plant will behave in a manner that it renames something (at least in how the plant relates to it) to act in place and behave AS a "Y" chromosome?

If that makes any sense...if not...I need to do sooooo much more learning, b/c your post lost me a bit...


dank.Frank

 

[englishrick]

im sorry frank, ,,,i dont quite understand what your sayin,,,,but im sure we can figure it out together,,,



the point i was trying to make is that Ainsworth describes sex determination in Cannabis as using "an X/autosome dosage type"



but let me please expand on what ive allready said

Once recombination has been suppressed in a chromosomal region, the proto-type Y chromosome will gradually accumulate deleterious mutations by a process known as Muller's ratchet (Muller, 1964 Felsenstein, 1974)

suppression of recombination spreads to the entire Y chromosome!!,,,once recombination is suppressed around the sex determination region, an incipient Y chromosome starts to differentiate

^^^an thats just part of the evoloution of sex chromozones,,,,eventualy the Y chromosome is lost, and X-to-autosome ratio sex determination system has evolved

according to Ainsworth this has alleady happend with cannabis!!

cannabis has Heteromorphic sex chromosomes!!! (Parker, 1990),,,sex chromosomes do not appear suddenly in animals or plants. rather, it is the pair of autosomes bearing the sex determination genes that have evolved specialized features,,,,basicly the degeneration of the Y chromosome, resulting in heteromorphy that became the hallmark of sex chromosomes..

severe degeneration of the Y chromosome causes loss of function for most genes. deletion of nonfunctional DNA sequences results in shrinking of the Y chromosome in size

two major sex chromosome systems have evolved. One is the active Y chromosome system, or the XY system in which females have two of the same kind of sex chromosome (XX),,,, while males have two distinct sex chromosomes (XY),,, The other is the X-to-autosome balance system, in which the ratio of X:A chromosomes determines sex by an X chromosome counting system and the Y chromosome is dispensable.

sex chromosomes in dioecious plants evolved as a mechanism for ensuring outcrossing to increase genetic variation ,,an this "Sex specificity" has evolved via male sterile or female sterile mutations,,,,stamen and carpel development involve large numbers of genes at various developmental stages, and mutations of any of the many regulatory genes could trigger abortion or loss of function of male and/or female organs (Wellmer et al., 2004),,,,.

suppression of recombination is a pivotal event in sex chromosome evolution... without suppression of recombination, the male sterile or female sterile mutations could revert to hermaphroditism,,,

 

[dank.frank]

that is what I meant, in sorts...thanks Rick...I love reading your posts in these types of threads. I can imagine in real life we'd talk genetics and breeding for DAYS non-stop. I truly enjoy the depth of information you provide in your posts!

You make my desire to learn more about the true science behind what we do SOOOOO MUCH greater. You make me crave knowledge....never a bad thing!


dank.Frank

 

[theHIGHlander]

wow my head hurts from reading that....Fuck i though i was staring to learn something,,then i started reading what your talking about (frank)..then Rick comes in and just blows me right outa the water...where the bong lol......

Rick i got 1 Q. for you if you dont mind bro.....

so at the end of the day fem beans are only missing the Y cromizone<<<<<<<<spelling hahahaha yeh?...
so if you took some pollen from a male (male from reg seed), and seeded a female plant (that is fem from seed) would the offspring seed be reg or fem?..............i dont know if that makes any sence,,,,you got a phone number hahahahahahahahahahahah

take it easy guys
keep it green
highlander

 

[tequila_sunrise]

wow my head hurts from reading that....Fuck i though i was staring to learn something,,then i started reading what your talking about (frank)..then Rick comes in and just blows me right outa the water...where the bong lol......

Rick i got 1 Q. for you if you dont mind bro.....

so at the end of the day fem beans are only missing the Y cromizone<<<<<<<<spelling hahahaha yeh?...
so if you took some pollen from a male (male from reg seed), and seeded a female plant (that is fem from seed) would the offspring seed be reg or fem?..............i dont know if that makes any sence,,,,you got a phone number hahahahahahahahahahahah

take it easy guys
keep it green
highlander

If highschool biology stuck in there theyd be 25% male and 75% female right?

 

[englishrick]

hay guys,,,,thanks for the ego boost

sorry guys,,,i didnt mean to confuse things,,,,,like ive probbly said beffore,," im just learning too",,,,,,,only just a few years ago i was the dumbest dude on this site,,,,toms the man who slaped me upside the head with my first real book (Allard),,,,,,,ive somehow managed to learn and teach at the same time,,,,fuk knows how ,,but thats how its happend

crosses between monoecious and dioecious inderviduals give rise to 50:50 monoecious to dioecious progeny

if you do a punnet square it looks like this,,,,,

,,,X X
X XX XX
Y XY XY

so the answer is 50:50 ratios!!
Y

 

[hoosierdaddy]

The resulting progeny would have a normal 50/50 M/F ratio.
The female will carry the X at the eighth set, and the male will carry the Y at it's eighth set, both presenting 50% during meiosis.
The fem only knows its a fem not how it got that way.
The male only knows its a male and not how it got that way.

 

[englishrick]

snap,,,i almost got it wrong hooz

 

[hoosierdaddy]

lol...never wrong, just a misplaced correct answer.

I have stated before that it all boils down to simple math...just about all of it.
And have seen the reply; "what the fuck has math got to do with this?"

lol....

 

[englishrick]

no,,i was wrong for a second untill i did the punnet square,,,,,it took me a second to think

the math is very important,,,,,,ratios are everything to a breeder!!,,,,its how we see

 

[hoosierdaddy]

the math is very important,,,,,,ratios are everything to a breeder!!,,,,its how we see

Bingo!

 

[englishrick]

the whole point in backcrossing sometimes is just to see the ratios,,,

 

[HybridHydro]

The problem with feminised seeds, (if someone hasn't already pointed this out, I was to lazy to read through all of the posts) is the fact that whatever you did outside of using, say, gibrellic acid, to turn the plant hermie, to produce seed, that hermaphrodite tendency is now "present" in the genetic make up of the resulting seed.

A suggestion that was made to me a LONG LONG time ago, was to practise extreme patience and to take a plant, hack it up, mess with the lighting schedule, and I mean REALLY mess with it BAD, if after all that, it doesn't turn hermaphrodite, you have a "pure female". Use Gibberellic Acid on one branch of a female plant to induce male flowers. Gibberellic Acid is sold by nursery supply houses for plant breeding and hybridizing. Spray the plant once every day for 10 days with 100 ppm gibberellic acid.
The resulting seed will be female only, with an extremely LOW to no probability of hermaphrodites.

 

[theHIGHlander]

hay guys,,,,thanks for the ego boost

sorry guys,,,i didnt mean to confuse things,,,,,like ive probbly said beffore,," im just learning too",,,,,,,only just a few years ago i was the dumbest dude on this site,,,,toms the man who slaped me upside the head with my first real book (Allard),,,,,,,ive somehow managed to learn and teach at the same time,,,,fuk knows how ,,but thats how its happend

crosses between monoecious and dioecious inderviduals give rise to 50:50 monoecious to dioecious progeny

if you do a punnet square it looks like this,,,,,

,,,X X
X XX XX
Y XY XY

so the answer is 50:50 ratios!!
Y

Laymans terms,,cheers bro...i know who to fire a PM if i have any questions lol

The resulting progeny would have a normal 50/50 M/F ratio.
The female will carry the X at the eighth set, and the male will carry the Y at it's eighth set, both presenting 50% during meiosis.
The fem only knows its a fem not how it got that way.
The male only knows its a male and not how it got that way.

cheers for that hoosierdaddy


keep it green
highlander

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Selection is the key, and is the part that many of the naysayers miss.
And what you are talking about is indeed a way to select a proper female that has a low tendency to hermie. But...this is just my estimation here...but I think if you do happen to find that one "true female" I don't think your gibberellic acid strategy will work. Nor will introducing silver ions. I just don't think that a pure female plant has the capability to hermie.
Ah, but as William Snakeshit once said; "...there in lies the rub."

Are there such things as "pure females"? -and could such a plant be forced to produce stamen? I'd love to hear Sam weigh in...

 

[englishrick]

im not allways the best dude to answer every question,,but i know alot dudes here on icmag who have degrees an sh1t,,,,i dont have 1 qualification any more,,,my GCSE`s expired years ago..lol,,,im just a kid who gets to sit on his ass allday

 

[darwinsbulldog]

A suggestion that was made to me a LONG LONG time ago, was to practise extreme patience and to take a plant, hack it up, mess with the lighting schedule, and I mean REALLY mess with it BAD, if after all that, it doesn't turn hermaphrodite, you have a "pure female".

wouldn't it be much less time consuming to just spray the plant(s) with whatever chemicals you use to induce intersexuality and if you do it repeatedly to a female that doesn't show any male flowers after treatments then you most likely have a pure female. you also would be able to localize this onto specific plant(s) if you spray them outside of your room, whereas if you're using lights you'd need an entire room devoted to the weird light regimes.

i've a question for you guys too, with respect to male flowers being induced, are there plants out their that have intersex genes and are able to show male flowers that only respond to certain types of stimuli and not others? eg. a plant that throws male flowers only when sprayed with CS or STS but never when put under weird light regimes? or is it more that if they do one, they'll do the other as well?

i ask because i wonder if you'd be able to select for good fem seed mothers by choosing females who only throw males when sprayed with CS or STS etc and not under poor environmental conditions, this way the growers growing your product would never suffer issues with male flowers appearing on plants even if they screw up light regimes or pH etc.

 

[englishrick]

oh elo,,,speke of the devil,,,,what do you think of this "true female" thing darwin

this "True Female" thing is difficult,,i think we need a direct chat with sam,,,

 

[darwinsbulldog]

hey hey!! haha just saw this discussion going on in the new posts so thought i'd join in! yeah i guess in the end it all depends on what you want to do, if you're after a female that you can clone out for grows knowing you won't have nannas thrown or use in breeding to perpetuate no intersex genes (though i think you'd need to also find a pure male to be certain all seed would be pure females, and subsequently pure males) then yeah it's perfect, however if you're pursuing feminized seeds etc, then pure females are relatively useless to you... you can't self or cross them and if you cross them with females you've induced male flowers in, most of your seeds will have intersex genes again defeating the purpose of using her in the first place. lol. i'd love to get one to stuff around with breeding wise, and also just to be able to give people clones or use them myself etc and know there will never be any male flowers thrown whatsoever. so they definitely have their place in the world of cannabis breeding. what do you guys think?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I think the key to finding a mother for forcing (or for regular breeding for that matter) is to select the plants that show the intersex gene to be very recessive. That is of course if you are selecting for plants that don't hermie easy.

I would not really cherish a wild hemp plant that doesn't hermie..but I may well enjoy a hybrid that only hermies when stressed, that also provides me with the magic I seek.
After all, it is the magic that we seek, yes?