Feminized Seeds Vs Standard

[theHIGHlander]

Darwin, ive had my blue cheese (fem from seed) mom for 3 years now,,she been through some hard time over those 3 year PH,root bound, nute burn,,lighs failing,heat stress, cold, ect ect and shes not thrown out any balls, not even a sterile one,,,infact she just laughs right in ma face...(this is 1 reasons why ive still got her,,,she a hardy little cow lol)......

as for the sprays ive not tried any of them so cant comment on them with a fem plant....

i was just wondering what my ratio of male/female would be as ive just made some seed with my blue cheese (some Zombie pollen)...shit i didnt even know for sure if thay were worth makeing as my blue cheese mom was a fem from seed, but you guys have just put a smile on ma face saying 50/50....thats good anuff for me,, i got a few seeds to find a keeper/work with lol

keep it green
highlander

 

[darwinsbulldog]

ah cool highlander, sounds like you may have a pure fem on your hands then, the longer you go without seeing male flowers through different grows and different conditions makes it more likely to be the case for sure!

as for ratios, with respect to being either male or female (not talking about levels of maleness or femaleness with regards to intersex genes) the ratios should always be 50-50 when mating with any male, and 100 when feminized as far as i know.

 

[theHIGHlander]

pure female i dont know about that ,,but we've been through some tuff times lol & nothing,,i just though,,she be good to cross as she tuff as nails but didnt know what/how it would work as she was from fem seed....

keep it green
highlander

 

[darwinsbulldog]

yeah definitely sounds like a keeper if she's been resilient through all those tough times. it's been interesting for me and my mate penguin too, we only started this year but have already gone through about 3 grows with the original nirvana white widow 5 x fem seeds we started with and each grow we've noticed different things about the girls we've grown through clone wise, and what they can tolerate, what they can't etc it's been a good learning experience and i'm sure there's heaps more to go. but yeah if she's been made through feminized techniques she's still the same XX = female ratio as a MalexFemale created female XX. so she should act as any regular female.

 

[theHIGHlander]

i feel it took me close to 2 year to get her to the stage shes at now..she dialed right in, i know her inside out

keep it green
highlander

 

[englishrick]

hay guys,,,,

can we talk about sterility for a second?,,,the reasons ,,the implications,,,the positives,,the negativs,,,etc??

 

[HybridHydro]

but I think if you do happen to find that one "true female" I don't think your gibberellic acid strategy will work.


I am by no means any expert, I am just going by what I read out of some "grow bible".

The idea that gibrellic acid wouldn't work on a "pure female" is very intriguing indeed.

Btw, a female crossed with itself, would never produce a "male" seed, would it? They would either be female or hermie, I take it?

 

[HybridHydro]

To everyone here: wouldn't it be much less time consuming to just spray the plant(s) with whatever chemicals you use to induce intersexuality and if you do it repeatedly to a female that doesn't show any male flowers after treatments then you most likely have a pure female.

I think the idea is that you want a plant that is extremely difficult to hermie so that it increases the tendency of and percentages of feminisation of the seed, IE: an easier to turn hermie variety would carry 50%(or whatever higher percentage) of the hermie tendencies on (vs) a harder to turn variety that would only carry on say 10% or even 5% of the Hermie tendencies.

I put "pure female" in parenthesis for the reason that it was not meant to be taken literally as I am not positive myself to the idea that there are "pure females". I would assume that being that there are pure males, there has to be pure females out there somewhere, but that would only be an assumption.

 

[ibjamming]

Selection is the key, and is the part that many of the naysayers miss.
And what you are talking about is indeed a way to select a proper female that has a low tendency to hermie. But...this is just my estimation here...but I think if you do happen to find that one "true female" I don't think your gibberellic acid strategy will work. Nor will introducing silver ions. I just don't think that a pure female plant has the capability to hermie.
Ah, but as William Snakeshit once said; "...there in lies the rub."

Are there such things as "pure females"? -and could such a plant be forced to produce stamen? I'd love to hear Sam weigh in...

Selection IS the key...until we genetically map it and find the key areas we want to exploit...just like we will with all the foodcrops including animals. You ain't seen nothing yet folks...

As for a "pure" female. Maybe, maybe not. "hermi-ism" may be an integral part of cannabis. There are a lot of "he-she's" in the world. It could just be the way cannabis rolls.

Think about it as a strategy to survival. Outstanding conditions means mostly female expression. People talk all the time about the conditions they provide to make more females. And they swear it works. And why not? More females means more seeds to populate these ideal conditions.

As conditions get worse...more and more males appear. Why make a bunch of seeds that will never grow? Only the "most" female stay that way. Make more males to make more pollen that hopefully will spread to other females in better conditions. Or, a plant that is already female expression, begins to throw male flowers to get the seeds made. That could be what's happening with late flowering nanners showing up during the flush. The plant is in a panic...a chemical panic. It knows it's dying and isn't making seeds. Never underestimate the power of survival instinct.

Bottom line...in my view...cannabis WANTS to be female. It can be a "male" XY, but in ideal conditions it will express sexually as female. When conditions are bad or get bad, it expresses male flowers. A "female" XX also wants to express female flowers but will under stress, throw out male flowers to make seeds and survive.

Or...it could be that hermi-ism is VERY ingrained into cannabis. Maye a LOT of males will throw female flowers if allowed to live long enough. I'd bet 90% or more males never get past preflower stage. Maye a lot of males would start to throw female flowers at later stages of flowering if they were allowed to live. I've had one do it...male to female flowers. Maybe 50 or 60 or 80% of all males will eventually throw pistils, just like a lot of females eventually throw a nanner.

Just me, sitting here high, thinking about the discussion...

 

[darwinsbulldog]

but I think if you do happen to find that one "true female" I don't think your gibberellic acid strategy will work.


I am by no means any expert, I am just going by what I read out of some "grow bible".

The idea that gibrellic acid wouldn't work on a "pure female" is very intriguing indeed.

Btw, a female crossed with itself, would never produce a "male" seed, would it? They would either be female or hermie, I take it?

yeah no form of stress environmental (light, ph, nutes) or chemical (Gib, CS, STS) can possibly induce male flowers in a pure female because the female lacks any of the male genes (on the male sex chromosomes she won't have) in order to do so. so yeah she can't be used to produce female pollen though she can be pollinated by a male or intersex female. it'd be like trying to buy groceries in american with australian money. if your wallet only has aussie dollars in it, you won't get anything. whereas if it had both aussie and US dollars in it...

in layman's terms, you can only get out what you put in. if you cross two females, XX x XX you'll only get XX offspring. if there're no Y chromosomes in there to begin with (to form males) then you'll never have any male offspring.

 

[englishrick]

i am under the assumption only "strerility" can differentiate a Female from a "TRUE Female"....

i think we need a chat about sterility,,,

an whats the deal with Ainsworth sayin Cannabis is allready using an X/Autosome dosage system,,,,

is allmost sounds like every female is Monoecious untill it is 100% sterile an even chemicals cant make it express maleness

 

[HybridHydro]

IBjamming wrote:As for a "pure" female. Maybe, maybe not. "hermi-ism" may be an integral part of cannabis. There are a lot of "he-she's" in the world. It could just be the way cannabis rolls.

Excellent point, I forgot my biology... earthworms for example..

 

[HybridHydro]

"sterility" heheh all I can think of is the male plant crossing his banana's... wincing in pain.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

Selection IS the key...until we genetically map it and find the key areas we want to exploit...just like we will with all the foodcrops including animals. You ain't seen nothing yet folks...

As for a "pure" female. Maybe, maybe not. "hermi-ism" may be an integral part of cannabis. There are a lot of "he-she's" in the world. It could just be the way cannabis rolls.

Think about it as a strategy to survival. Outstanding conditions means mostly female expression. People talk all the time about the conditions they provide to make more females. And they swear it works. And why not? More females means more seeds to populate these ideal conditions.

As conditions get worse...more and more males appear. Why make a bunch of seeds that will never grow? Only the "most" female stay that way. Make more males to make more pollen that hopefully will spread to other females in better conditions. Or, a plant that is already female expression, begins to throw male flowers to get the seeds made. That could be what's happening with late flowering nanners showing up during the flush. The plant is in a panic...a chemical panic. It knows it's dying and isn't making seeds. Never underestimate the power of survival instinct.

Bottom line...in my view...cannabis WANTS to be female. It can be a "male" XY, but in ideal conditions it will express sexually as female. When conditions are bad or get bad, it expresses male flowers. A "female" XX also wants to express female flowers but will under stress, throw out male flowers to make seeds and survive.

Or...it could be that hermi-ism is VERY ingrained into cannabis. Maye a LOT of males will throw female flowers if allowed to live long enough. I'd bet 90% or more males never get past preflower stage. Maye a lot of males would start to throw female flowers at later stages of flowering if they were allowed to live. I've had one do it...male to female flowers. Maybe 50 or 60 or 80% of all males will eventually throw pistils, just like a lot of females eventually throw a nanner.

Just me, sitting here high, thinking about the discussion...

hahaha definitely onto something there, by people culling males as early as possible, ie as soon as they see nanners, they're effectively selecting (accidently) for males that produce pollen sooner and get it out before they're culled. so that natural gap between when male's produce pollen (earlier on) and when females flower) may actually have been caused by artificial human selection against male plants. it's like with mosquitos, everyone kills the ones they can see and hear, it's the ones that you don't that get you and then pass on their genes to make even more stealthy mosquitos... lol but what are your options? if you don't kill them they'll get you anyway! it's called an evolutionary arms race, where things are constantly evolving to outsmart, outmaneuver, outrun the prey or the predator and survive to reproduce.

i'd say that what people incorrectly term "hermaphroditism" in Cannabis is most definitely an integral part of the species. think about it, it's been around for millions of years evolving, keeping what traits are advantageous (or neutral) in fitness, and discarding those that are disadvantageous. "hermies" are still here... they definitely have a purpose, and a benefit. as you say, for those plants that are isolated from any others, if only a few survived a season and are too far to be pollinated, they'd be able to self. if there're few males (ie. because a farmer has killed them all) then those "hermies" can cross/self each other... any that don't have this "hermie" trait and end up in these positions will die, but those that do, clearly live on to pass on these traits! and like you say, those plants that get to the end of their flowering period and haven't been pollinated, in the wild would've died making no seed to pass on their genes, but those that produced "hermies" in flowering, would've selfed/crossed and produced offspring able to do the same thing in the future.

as an evolutionary biologist, this shit constantly blows my mind. you don't realise there's a reason for everything in the natural world, how it is, how it works, why it works, etc... once you start thinking about it all, it's crazy how it all just lines up!

 

[darwinsbulldog]

IBjamming wrote:As for a "pure" female. Maybe, maybe not. "hermi-ism" may be an integral part of cannabis. There are a lot of "he-she's" in the world. It could just be the way cannabis rolls.

Excellent point, I forgot my biology... earthworms for example..

be careful here though, earthworms are actually hermaphrodites, Cannabis isn't. for it to be hermaphroditic it would require both male and female organs in each single flower, instead when a female or male shows the opposite sex flowers they're segregated = monoecious / intersex

anyway sorry for detracting from sterility rick, i haven't really looked into that topic with respect to Cannabis

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I grew some F13 last year, and from a single pack was the skrawniest non-yielding cull I ever flowered all the way out, a keeper that I can't imagine parting with, and a hermie that looked healthy but it's pollen was not viable..of which I was glad.
DJ's methods could be looked at for clues.
Actually, lots can be gleaned from DJ's methods...

 

[darwinsbulldog]

I grew some F13 last year, and from a single pack was the skrawniest non-yielding cull I ever flowered all the way out, a keeper that I can't imagine parting with, and a hermie that looked healthy but it's pollen was not viable..of which I was glad.
DJ's methods could be looked at for clues.
Actually, lots can be gleaned from DJ's methods...

hey hoosier, how'd you work out it wasn't viable? just by the fact that the male flowers were present and no seeds formed?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I actually thought the thing was a male...hell it may well have been a male, but it also ended up showing pistols. Anywho, it spit some pollen and I dusted a bud or two of another plant that didn't take. No seed, although I think I remember the pistols browning as if...

 

[Balance]

Why is it fem seed threads never talk about effective breeding populations? When you only breed with 1 or two plants, don't you limit the genes you're able to pass on to successive generations? With so few alleles, don't you invite unwanted recessive genes to express?

We all talk about loss of vigor and yeild when using a low number of plants, its stupid to breed this way.

Using the one special mother you found, and then adding chemicals does not insure continuity of the genes you want... quite the opposite.

Selection is a given, but numbers are more important IMO. And numbers never seem to be used enough in fem seed production, or regular seeds for that matter.

Gotta agree with Dank Frank, Fem seeds produce an instant genetic bottleneck and undesireable breeding traits from the outset.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

hey balance. it all depends on what you're trying to do re: Ne (effective breeding population) size. no one's suggesting that you start with 1-2 plants.... that'd be yes very stupid if you're planning on creating your own strains through selection, however if you're just wanting to make a cross and F1s then that's all you need.

the best breeding projects start with the biggest numbers for the power of selection to really be realised. but it all ends up being narrowed down to only a few of the best to pass on their genes to the next generation. this speeds up selection, if you start with 1000 and end up with the 10 best, compared to starting with 100 and ending with 50. but it also depends on what you can logistically deal with. many of us can't grow out 1000s or even 100s safely... and so when starting with 100 or less you have to narrow it down to as few as possible to get the best out of selection, you then breed seed from those few, and do the 100 culled to a few again, these are called IBLs or inbred lines. this is done on purpose because it means the genes you're selecting for are never diluted or lost, as you keep increasing their selection and appearance in offspring. the case is no different in feminized seed. you've just used females to pollinate one another instead of a female and a male. i think you're talking about selfing when you talk about loss of vigour and yield etc, but any decent fem seed vendor won't be selling you selfed seeds... so this shouldn't really be a problem. 2 females crossed to produce seed is as healthy as 1 male and 1 female crossed to produce seed, (when parents in question are of equal relatedness). this is where you're misunderstanding fem seeds, you're assuming fem seeds are only a result of selfing, but you can get them from cross pollinating two different females! that doesn't result in any form of bottleneck necessarily.

and undesirable, recessive, deleterious, mutant traits aren't necessarily bad. breeders may want to double up recessive mutations, and also by doing so when they are undesirable this allows for selection against them, their removal from the gene pool, and can result in a healthier line in the long run. look up the mauritius dove and it's bottleneck, Ne or <5 or something is now 100+ and the population is healthy because all the initial inbred, mutant genes were lost in offspring that died.

you are also able to improve the health of an IBL if you're worried about a bottleneck simply by outcrossing even with a single unrelated individual further down the track, and i'm sure a lot of breeders do this. they'll breed up separate IBLs and then cross them in order to combine traits they like as well as improve the overall health of a line etc.
anyway i hope you see where i'm coming from.