Feminized Seeds Vs Standard
- Thread starter tequila_sunrise
- Start date
You can actually get beautiful and healthy plants from fem seeds.
Your main concern is if you need some males to do your own seeds and if you have enough space to grow some males before you cull 'em. In a country with very harsh laws growing too much plants can be a risk, so fem seeds come in help.
No need to hate in this thread, the reg vs fem is old stuff
Peace
=K
Your main concern is if you need some males to do your own seeds and if you have enough space to grow some males before you cull 'em. In a country with very harsh laws growing too much plants can be a risk, so fem seeds come in help.
No need to hate in this thread, the reg vs fem is old stuff
Peace
=K
I have never stated that fem seeds are superior to regular seeds, nor the inverse.
I am not on the bandwagon, so to speak, for feminized seeds. To me it's ignorant to side up on such an issue. And who really cares about what I "think" about this issue anyway? All I am concerned with are the facts of the matter. And one fact that is undeniable, is that the breeders who are the most skilled at their trade will use all the tools available to them to accomplish the task at hand. Forcing pollen from a female to use for making seeds is simply another tool in the proficient breeder's tool box.
Some seem to understand the importance of proper environment and selection aspects of breeding using a M/F strategy, yet when it comes to the fem thing, they lose touch.
See, the F/F strategy works, and works well. In fact, it is no different than the process in harvesting regular seeds after pollination has taken place. None whatsoever. And the offspring of a F/F breeding are no more prone to express anything more than their regular M/F bred siblings.
Take three plants...all siblings, two females and one male.
We can let the male pollinate both of the females, and the F1 generation of that mating will show a variation that is dependent on the gene pool of the M and the two female parents.
Both the seeds from female1 and female2 will produce plants with the very same ratio of variation, and with nearly the same expressions as each other.
Now, we could have easily tested both of the females to see if they were worthy of breeding. If they do not show intersex trait with mild stress, then they may well be fine to use and not be hermie producers.
But, what about the male? We don't really know much about him and what his offspring will be like at all. Not unless we actually pollinate something stable that we know very well so we can select and judge from his offspring to see if he is worthy of breeding.
But, we didn't do that in the scenario above, we simply mated him without really knowing if he passes on hermie or not.
Now, take one of the females (that we have previously tested for stress and show to be good candidates for crossing) and force her to show male flowers and give pollen. We use that pollen to fertilize her sister. The resulting offspring will be damn near the same as the offspring of the M/F mating, minus whatever expressions the male may have offered.
Thing is, we know about both parents of the F/F pollination. We have a good idea of what they hold in store for the progeny.
And guess what?....now we have some seeds that are all female and we know it. We also have seeds that were produced from two tested parents. We also have something that we can look through and find an expression that suits your other selection criteria, and hey guess what...we have something that we can now cross back to the single male.
We can then judge what he holds by looking at what he and our known good female only offspring reproduce. Better to fem the females out a couple more times and have a very stable cultigen to work with.
If you know the fem seeds well, then it is much easier to identify the traits the male brings to the table.
I am not on the bandwagon, so to speak, for feminized seeds. To me it's ignorant to side up on such an issue. And who really cares about what I "think" about this issue anyway? All I am concerned with are the facts of the matter. And one fact that is undeniable, is that the breeders who are the most skilled at their trade will use all the tools available to them to accomplish the task at hand. Forcing pollen from a female to use for making seeds is simply another tool in the proficient breeder's tool box.
Some seem to understand the importance of proper environment and selection aspects of breeding using a M/F strategy, yet when it comes to the fem thing, they lose touch.
See, the F/F strategy works, and works well. In fact, it is no different than the process in harvesting regular seeds after pollination has taken place. None whatsoever. And the offspring of a F/F breeding are no more prone to express anything more than their regular M/F bred siblings.
Take three plants...all siblings, two females and one male.
We can let the male pollinate both of the females, and the F1 generation of that mating will show a variation that is dependent on the gene pool of the M and the two female parents.
Both the seeds from female1 and female2 will produce plants with the very same ratio of variation, and with nearly the same expressions as each other.
Now, we could have easily tested both of the females to see if they were worthy of breeding. If they do not show intersex trait with mild stress, then they may well be fine to use and not be hermie producers.
But, what about the male? We don't really know much about him and what his offspring will be like at all. Not unless we actually pollinate something stable that we know very well so we can select and judge from his offspring to see if he is worthy of breeding.
But, we didn't do that in the scenario above, we simply mated him without really knowing if he passes on hermie or not.
Now, take one of the females (that we have previously tested for stress and show to be good candidates for crossing) and force her to show male flowers and give pollen. We use that pollen to fertilize her sister. The resulting offspring will be damn near the same as the offspring of the M/F mating, minus whatever expressions the male may have offered.
Thing is, we know about both parents of the F/F pollination. We have a good idea of what they hold in store for the progeny.
And guess what?....now we have some seeds that are all female and we know it. We also have seeds that were produced from two tested parents. We also have something that we can look through and find an expression that suits your other selection criteria, and hey guess what...we have something that we can now cross back to the single male.
We can then judge what he holds by looking at what he and our known good female only offspring reproduce. Better to fem the females out a couple more times and have a very stable cultigen to work with.
If you know the fem seeds well, then it is much easier to identify the traits the male brings to the table.
With you all the way..
Still trying to get my head around this complex world of breeding!!
recessive traits may not show up till f3, f4 etc,...passed from the dirty man! lol
Gotta test MALE stuff properly with stable stuff... I SEEEeee.. This has led to problems in the bean world lately
Nice thread/..
Still trying to get my head around this complex world of breeding!!
recessive traits may not show up till f3, f4 etc,...passed from the dirty man! lol
Gotta test MALE stuff properly with stable stuff... I SEEEeee.. This has led to problems in the bean world lately
Nice thread/..
hahahaha....here we go...time to put on some armor first though...
For one...look at my avatar. It says clearly "NATURAL SELECTION".
I really don't know how often mankind really has to screw around with and manipulate the natural order of nature in some misguided attempt to do who knows what.
I think the only reason FEM's came into existence is money. It is pure and simple. It took Reservoir YEARS....YEARS to produce a stable Chemdog IBL seed line. It took GHS about a year to produce stable Trainwreck fems.
Anyone found a true representation of the original Arcata cut inside of GHS fems??? Not to my knowledge. However, I do know that breeders who work a plant through many years of genetic selection (bless those that truly take the time) do at the end of it all end up with a seed line that produces consistent, authentic results...that are often BETTER than the original clone or line they started with due to proper selections being made. Once again, this TAKES YEARS...especially when testing males. You have to grow the progeny...it is the only way to know for certain what effect your male is having...and it also requires outcrosses to multiple females, in order to truly identify what traits a male is passing.
Once again...I think FEM's are only around because of market demand....much like cheap toilet paper. Sure, it'll get you clean...but hope you don't poke your finger through it. There is a need for people that have a particular clone or plant....when femming first started it was done so under the guise that it was a quicker route to breeding a clone only plant to a stable seed line that would produce plants that are most like the original mother. I think time has shown us, NOT that Fem's don't produce good quality plants, simply that they do nothing in regards of getting to that goal of reproducing an identical seed line to a chosen mother.
Think about it like this. Sperm is sperm. But, if you smoke crack...do you want your sperm to be the one that fertilizes the egg? Now it is sperm that has some chemical substance in it. I think of it the same way. The only way I want seeds made is from a 100% perfectly healthy and vigorous male. I don't want pollen as a result of some science experiment. I don't want pollen that is produced under stressful situations (even if intentional). I truly believe, just like sperm, that pollen is affected in ways we don't understand when it is chemically charged.
Ultimately....grow Fems. Fine. Do that. It gets you to a place you need to be in some instances. For the love of all that is good....DO NOT USE THESE PLANTS AS YOUR BREEDING STOCK. EVER. Latent gene traits, I believe, are being introduced to the gene pool that shouldn't be. Why don't we see this yet? Has anyone really taken things to enough successive generations of FEM breeding to see what will happen? If so, where are the studies and documented efforts of all these companies now going only FEM??!! They don't do such tests or studies because their eyes are on a different prize. YOUR WALLET.
It used to be if you bought seeds, you were buying the genetic line. Now, if you buy seeds, you gotta go back next year to get more, b/c they STOLE your males from you. LOL. Way to let "the man" into our industry.
Anyone ever try to fem a fem....take those seeds, and fem those plants...take those seeds and fem those plants....
You really think the end result will be as good as pure pollen from a tested, selected, and proven male? Not a chance in hell. And I know, that you can use a studly male to do the task above. Do it enough...and you will hit inbreeding depression, sure, b/c you have removed certain genes/traits in the process...you have created a bottleneck of the gene expressions.
Fems create that bottle neck...instantly.
All this....just my opinion. Take it as you will.
dank.Frank
For one...look at my avatar. It says clearly "NATURAL SELECTION".
I really don't know how often mankind really has to screw around with and manipulate the natural order of nature in some misguided attempt to do who knows what.
I think the only reason FEM's came into existence is money. It is pure and simple. It took Reservoir YEARS....YEARS to produce a stable Chemdog IBL seed line. It took GHS about a year to produce stable Trainwreck fems.
Anyone found a true representation of the original Arcata cut inside of GHS fems??? Not to my knowledge. However, I do know that breeders who work a plant through many years of genetic selection (bless those that truly take the time) do at the end of it all end up with a seed line that produces consistent, authentic results...that are often BETTER than the original clone or line they started with due to proper selections being made. Once again, this TAKES YEARS...especially when testing males. You have to grow the progeny...it is the only way to know for certain what effect your male is having...and it also requires outcrosses to multiple females, in order to truly identify what traits a male is passing.
Once again...I think FEM's are only around because of market demand....much like cheap toilet paper. Sure, it'll get you clean...but hope you don't poke your finger through it. There is a need for people that have a particular clone or plant....when femming first started it was done so under the guise that it was a quicker route to breeding a clone only plant to a stable seed line that would produce plants that are most like the original mother. I think time has shown us, NOT that Fem's don't produce good quality plants, simply that they do nothing in regards of getting to that goal of reproducing an identical seed line to a chosen mother.
Think about it like this. Sperm is sperm. But, if you smoke crack...do you want your sperm to be the one that fertilizes the egg? Now it is sperm that has some chemical substance in it. I think of it the same way. The only way I want seeds made is from a 100% perfectly healthy and vigorous male. I don't want pollen as a result of some science experiment. I don't want pollen that is produced under stressful situations (even if intentional). I truly believe, just like sperm, that pollen is affected in ways we don't understand when it is chemically charged.
Ultimately....grow Fems. Fine. Do that. It gets you to a place you need to be in some instances. For the love of all that is good....DO NOT USE THESE PLANTS AS YOUR BREEDING STOCK. EVER. Latent gene traits, I believe, are being introduced to the gene pool that shouldn't be. Why don't we see this yet? Has anyone really taken things to enough successive generations of FEM breeding to see what will happen? If so, where are the studies and documented efforts of all these companies now going only FEM??!! They don't do such tests or studies because their eyes are on a different prize. YOUR WALLET.
It used to be if you bought seeds, you were buying the genetic line. Now, if you buy seeds, you gotta go back next year to get more, b/c they STOLE your males from you. LOL. Way to let "the man" into our industry.
Anyone ever try to fem a fem....take those seeds, and fem those plants...take those seeds and fem those plants....
You really think the end result will be as good as pure pollen from a tested, selected, and proven male? Not a chance in hell. And I know, that you can use a studly male to do the task above. Do it enough...and you will hit inbreeding depression, sure, b/c you have removed certain genes/traits in the process...you have created a bottleneck of the gene expressions.
Fems create that bottle neck...instantly.
All this....just my opinion. Take it as you will.
dank.Frank
B
bocil
I prefer the regular seeds, I live in Spain, here the topic already is more seriously, since the new generations buy feminized seeds, certainly so copies of the original ones to astronomical prices, they are seeds you begin in bulk and of reverted cuttings, certainly those who do them they have not even idea of genetics, not of varieties, devote themselves to do very much marketing in magazines and to have a lot of money to account of the youth, now to gone out the topic of the autoflorecients, another great deception, the cannabis already is not what was.Only one thinks of selling slightly worn out and feminized varieties, soon not habra males to cross, a lot of autochthonous varieties stanydisappearing of the own countries of here to others 10 years, it is not going to remain at all, only hybrid in feminized, let's think what we make and even us stay time to give reverse, this it is my thought, many of mythical breeders already do not work, other bulk persons do the seeds, without nigun preocupamiento for the upbringing and preservation.
UPBRINGING, NOT MARKETING.
UPBRINGING, NOT MARKETING.
I think you guys are looking at it the wrong way.
I don't think the fem seed market is for reproduction. I think it's a way to grow a crop of strain X, harvest, and move on to the next strain. It wasn't made for breeding, or making seeds, it was made for the guy who can only grow one or two plants and he can't afford to find out two months into his grow that he's got two males. He wants a GUARANTEED female.
I don't think the fem seed market is for reproduction. I think it's a way to grow a crop of strain X, harvest, and move on to the next strain. It wasn't made for breeding, or making seeds, it was made for the guy who can only grow one or two plants and he can't afford to find out two months into his grow that he's got two males. He wants a GUARANTEED female.
gettitreal
Member
We must make every attempt to dispel pot myths.
If the people with actual experiences keep providing them, we can get to the Universal Truth about cannabis sexuality.
but it wont be without a long thread of garbage first.........
edit: "It"(the introduction of eXe, which OPENED the door for the modern feminization craze) was made to help people and to do research on cannabis. But, you cant hand a loaded .38 to a 6 y.o. with ADHD and tell him to use it sparingly and wisely.
If the people with actual experiences keep providing them, we can get to the Universal Truth about cannabis sexuality.
but it wont be without a long thread of garbage first.........
edit: "It"(the introduction of eXe, which OPENED the door for the modern feminization craze) was made to help people and to do research on cannabis. But, you cant hand a loaded .38 to a 6 y.o. with ADHD and tell him to use it sparingly and wisely.
now then Doc....I love ya brother...you know this.
Please...take this line...and hit it with more fem pollen...grow those out, hit your keeper there with more fem pollen....do it like you would do any other selection and Bx to your original Fem mom....using only Fem pollen...
Let's see what happens in 7-10 gens...if anything. Really. Let's get it documented and find out what the consequences if any are to be had....
dank.Frank
Please...take this line...and hit it with more fem pollen...grow those out, hit your keeper there with more fem pollen....do it like you would do any other selection and Bx to your original Fem mom....using only Fem pollen...
Let's see what happens in 7-10 gens...if anything. Really. Let's get it documented and find out what the consequences if any are to be had....
dank.Frank
If it wasn't all about marketing and money, GHS wouldn't have called their Trainwreck work "Trainwreck". They simple would have let people know that this WAS NOT the cut. It was NOT going to give them identical plants. But no, they lead the consumer to believe they are getting something they are not. But no. They lure in the younger less knowledge able consumer by their naming scheme...to GET IN YOUR WALLET.
Then breeders like Head Seeds, who are truly working TW to a stable and consistent seed line...get over looked. Breeders like Rez release a clone only line to seed form...he doesn't call it "Chemdog D".....b/c that isn't what it is. It is Chemdog IBL...to differentiate it from the clone. That is respectable.
And then TW becomes bunk to all who smoke it b/c they NEVER had any thing even remotely close to the strain in the first place...and they spread the word that TW is hype....but what they fail to recognize is that TW is bomb...and the seed line they bought was hype.
Perhaps you are right. I do look at this the wrong way. FEM seeds are for bulk, run of the mill, commercial growers....??? That don't want to make selections, that don't want to find the "best"...that would rather just hack down any 'ole female that grows. And yes, I should not ignore the importance of the 'mershers.
I suppose if I was growing for profit...and not for meds...then I might use fems....
I still stick with my "REAL-gular" seeds....
dank.Frank
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This was just a test dankfrank. we dont do chemicals and try and keep things as natural and as organic as possible. We would perhaps consider in-breeding Painted Lady,, if we find a male on the next run,, (so far no males have shown).
Peace n love
But see...IF femm'ing is not to the detriment of the plant, why not take pollen from chosen female, and Bx to the mom, using that fem pollen...you see my point.
It seems a bit crazy to breed a fem seed line and then to hunt a male in there to use...hahahaha. Talk about chasing your tail, no? hehehe
Nothing but respect for you here, Doc...
One Love.
dank.Frank
I'm curious why you talk about 7 or 8 generations, frank? I mean, why? A fem strategy doesn't require all that to get to stable numbers.
You know, your toilet paper tends not to stand up too well after a wipe or two...
IMO, you are claiming the practice a bad move yet aren't really showing us why.
Money is not the root of the practice, and that is for certain. It has merit.
Do you not think you can breed bad into a M/F strategy?
You know, your toilet paper tends not to stand up too well after a wipe or two...
IMO, you are claiming the practice a bad move yet aren't really showing us why.
Money is not the root of the practice, and that is for certain. It has merit.
Do you not think you can breed bad into a M/F strategy?
B
bonjourbonjour
Clones:
Pros: Guaranteed Female, .....
Cons: Powdery Mildew, ......
Fem Seeds:
Pros: Guaranteed Females,.....
Cons: selective selction,....
Non-fem Seeds:
Pros: Wide variety and selection to choose from,........
Cons: chances of males,......
Pros: Guaranteed Female, .....
Cons: Powdery Mildew, ......
Fem Seeds:
Pros: Guaranteed Females,.....
Cons: selective selction,....
Non-fem Seeds:
Pros: Wide variety and selection to choose from,........
Cons: chances of males,......
TexasToker
Member
Clones are susceptible to PM? Never seen it, and most likely will not with vigilance. The entire plant is susceptible to PM if not handled correctly...
And fem beans have just a higher probability of females, it is not guaranteed...
I think you will find that it is a guarantee for certain that they are all female. Only a mutation of some sort could make things otherwise.
TexasToker
Member
If you think it is a guarantee then obviously your are high. Of course it is a mutation...
