ITryToGrow Tries to grow

[Raphael]

The rule that has worked for me and at Lucas' recommendation is 50 gallons of water per 1000w of light you use. The idea is that the girls start drinking up so much water in a day that the EC and ppm rise unless you have enough water to satisfy them. Are the res' auto topped off like always at a full 16gallons or do you top off weekly or?

I would personally drop a 50 gallon res under each of the nft tables if possible and have a 500gph pump in each of them for a total of 100 gallons of water in the res, because you are running 2000w, correct? If not, definitely go for that ratio of 50gallons per 1000w.

If you can't put a 50 gallon res under each table, another viable method would be to get two rubbermaid trash cans that can hold about 20 gallons each when about 3/4 or 3/5 full so that they don't deform. That will get you to 36 gallons per 1000w if I am understanding your setup correctly. A 2-300gph pump in each of those res' plumbed to the nft tables will solve your ph swinging problem and will allow further time between res flushes. I personally don't flush until harvest week.

Cheers !

 

[ITryToGrow]

The rule that has worked for me and at Lucas' recommendation is 50 gallons of water per 1000w of light you use. The idea is that the girls start drinking up so much water in a day that the EC and ppm rise unless you have enough water to satisfy them. Are the res' auto topped off like always at a full 16gallons or do you top off weekly or?

Wow, that's a lot of water.

I fill up daily, sometimes I just give them water and sometimes nutes, all depending on the EC. Atm they drink about 1-2 gallons PER table, that is about 3-4 gallons per res, total of 7-8 gallons.

I would personally drop a 50 gallon res under each of the nft tables if possible and have a 500gph pump in each of them for a total of 100 gallons of water in the res, because you are running 2000w, correct? If not, definitely go for that ratio of 50gallons per 1000w.

2000w, yes. I'll have to rethink and redo the system then until next grow. It have never occured to me that my fluctuating pH could be beacuse the res was too small.

If you can't put a 50 gallon res under each table, another viable method would be to get two rubbermaid trash cans that can hold about 20 gallons each when about 3/4 or 3/5 full so that they don't deform. That will get you to 36 gallons per 1000w if I am understanding your setup correctly. A 2-300gph pump in each of those res' plumbed to the nft tables will solve your ph swinging problem and will allow further time between res flushes. I personally don't flush until harvest week.

Hmm, this gets me to think that my flow today is not enough? Each table has a 160gph pump, that is two pumps per res for a total of 4 pumps. You think I should use bigger pumps as well as bigger res'?

Thanks for all your input man, it's truly appreciated!

Cheers

 

[Raphael]

Wow, that's a lot of water.

I fill up daily, sometimes I just give them water and sometimes nutes, all depending on the EC. Atm they drink about 1-2 gallons PER table, that is about 3-4 gallons per res, total of 7-8 gallons.

So 8/32 which is 25% of your res is draining every day. Almost always the plants will drink more water than they absorb the nutes, which means during the course of the day the ph will naturally drop as the salts increase in concentration as the plants drink more water than they absorb nutrients...

If your res is at 1400ppm at the beginning of the day it could go to 1600 or 1700 depending on if they are taking in a lot of water. Low humidity increases transpiration which is the main cause of plants to drink water as they attempt to keep their leaves the perfect humidity to perform their functions.

1700 ppm can cause a ph of low 5 on the .7 conversion scale and this can cause multiple lockouts.

2000w, yes. I'll have to rethink and redo the system then until next grow. It have never occured to me that my fluctuating pH could be beacuse the res was too small.

What is the temperature of your res? Do you have a chiller? It needs to be 68F in order for root rot to not occur. Root rot can cause the ph to fluctuate, and a res temp of higher than 72F I would bet would become an issue...unless there was a ton of air being supplied into the water.

Cold water at 68F holds at least 20% IIRC more dissolved oxygen than 74F and before I got the chiller to after in my system was at least 20% growth, but there were other confounding variables.

Anyways, fluctuating ph is a symptom of multiple problems if encountered in a 24 hour period, but a fluctuating ph of 5.4 to 5.9 over the course of a week is a sign of a healthy plant.

Hmm, this gets me to think that my flow today is not enough? Each table has a 160gph pump, that is two pumps per res for a total of 4 pumps. You think I should use bigger pumps as well as bigger res'?

Thanks for all your input man, it's truly appreciated!

Cheers

Well do you have air stones in each table? Are there lots and lots of small air bubbles? That is what you want. In terms of waterflow, a minimum of 5 or 6 times an hour the water should completely circulate from the main reservoir to the root site and back to the reservoir, but many people get it up to 30 times an hour or more!

If you have less air being injected via air lines / diffuser / power head you can increase the rate of water circulation and thereby increasing the turbulance and surface area of the water which increases the amount of dissolved oxygen to an extent.

If you have no air lines/diffuser and no chiller and the res is over 72F I would get both; if you have air lines/diffuser/stone in each res and the temp is right around 70F you should be fine.

I suggested larger pumps just because they would have to pump from the bottom of the trash cans to the top of the tables, which would decrease the rate of flow significantly. If your pumps are real close to the nozzles/sprayers/end of the line and there is tons of water movement there is no need to upgrade the waterflow.

No problem, I enjoy these conversations especially when I can help

Cheers

 

[ITryToGrow]

So 8/32 which is 25% of your res is draining every day. Almost always the plants will drink more water than they absorb the nutes, which means during the course of the day the ph will naturally drop as the salts increase in concentration as the plants drink more water than they absorb nutrients...

If your res is at 1400ppm at the beginning of the day it could go to 1600 or 1700 depending on if they are taking in a lot of water. Low humidity increases transpiration which is the main cause of plants to drink water as they attempt to keep their leaves the perfect humidity to perform their functions.

1700 ppm can cause a ph of low 5 on the .7 conversion scale and this can cause multiple lockouts.

Spot on man! This is exactly the scenario that takes place every day in my grow. I just got an "aha" moment, like I said, never thought it could have to do with res size. But now when you said it, it makes perfect sense!

What is the temperature of your res? Do you have a chiller? It needs to be 68F in order for root rot to not occur. Root rot can cause the ph to fluctuate, and a res temp of higher than 72F I would bet would become an issue...unless there was a ton of air being supplied into the water.

Umm, ~77F

No chiller.

Look at my rootporn picture, doesn't seem like root rot? No funny smells either...

Well do you have air stones in each table? Are there lots and lots of small air bubbles? That is what you want. In terms of waterflow, a minimum of 5 or 6 times an hour the water should completely circulate from the main reservoir to the root site and back to the reservoir, but many people get it up to 30 times an hour or more!

Yes, I have two 35 inch air-tubes in each res. Each set of tubes (each res) is connected to an 160gph air-pump.

On top of that there is a pump in each res that does nothing but "stirr" the solution.

No problem, I enjoy these conversations especially when I can help

Yeah, me too! Especially when I learn a lot!

Thanks

 

[Raphael]

Spot on man! This is exactly the scenario that takes place every day in my grow. I just got an "aha" moment, like I said, never thought it could have to do with res size. But now when you said it, it makes perfect sense!

You have to love those moments, they are the feelings I seek because it is the feeling of knowledge backed by truth and your own experience.

Umm, ~77F

No chiller.

Look at my rootporn picture, doesn't seem like root rot? No funny smells either...




Yes, I have two 35 inch air-tubes in each res. Each set of tubes (each res) is connected to an 160gph air-pump.

On top of that there is a pump in each res that does nothing but "stirr" the solution.




Yeah, me too! Especially when I learn a lot!

Thanks

77F and no root rot? That is some hearty strains and thank god your girls are drinking so much water that it's not sitting in there too long!

77F holds 10% less ppms of dissolved oxygen than 68F.

I believe that insulation of the res and lines as well as a bigger reservoir will help lower your temps. The bigger res will also give the plants a longer exposure to the ph range as it drifts slower. Insulation is good for at least a couple degrees F but a 1/4 hp chiller and a bigger res is what I would do to ensure hot days don't fry the roots! Seriously if it drifts much past 78F I would say you are heading down a dark path.

However, you are always going to be your plant's best advocate and will always be better at diagnosing than someone else as long as you have heads up towards what problems one might encounter.

If you can add insulation and increase the res and the temp goes down to 73F or 74F and never higher than 75F I would say it's not worth buying a $150 chiller. However, it more than pays for itself in one harvest if it prevents the res from frying the roots.

In your case, with the temps and res size, regular flushing is definitely recommended

Keep us updated bro! Cheers

 

[IamNug]

hey raphael, 10% less of WHAT level ppms oxygen, ive always thought the temperature gets more oxygen argument is not really that critical. Temperature vs. rot is another story.

I mean if you lose 10% oxygen because of 10 degree difference in water, is it really that much, you still have 90%

Anyways... just wanted to contribute

I think the instability in the system would be not auto topping the water via float, therefor allowing the ph to fluctuate.

Still looking great, I love hydro!

 

[Raphael]

hey raphael, 10% less of WHAT level ppms oxygen, ive always thought the temperature gets more oxygen argument is not really that critical. Temperature vs. rot is another story.

I mean if you lose 10% oxygen because of 10 degree difference in water, is it really that much, you still have 90%

I think that you should reconsider your opinion that colder temps holding more oxygen isn't important or really that critical.

As the temperature of the root zone increases, every function of the plant increases. This increases the amount of dissolved oxygen needed by the plant. The hotter the res temps get, the less oxygen it can hold; but at the same time the plant needs more oxygen than usual.

I will refer you to this little article that I think sums up the need of dissolved oxygen as temperatures rise...It also explains what symptoms may appear due to insufficient oxygen.

Most growers are familiar with the need to have some form of aeration in their nutrient solution - whether they be in a recirculating or a media based system. In NFT systems, this is often accomplished with the use of an air pump or by allowing the nutrient to fall back into the reservoir thus introducing oxygen. However, the effect of temperature of the solution on the dissolved oxygen levels and on root respiration rates also needs to be taken into account. As the temperature of your nutrient solution increases, the ability of that solution to 'hold' dissolved oxygen decreases. For example, the oxygen content of a fully aerated solution at 10C (50 F) is about 13ppm, but as the solution warms up to 20 C (68 F) the ability of the liquid to 'hold' oxygen drops to 9 - 10ppm, by the time the solution has reached 30 C (86 F), then it's only 7ppm.

While this may not seem like a huge drop in the amount of dissolved oxygen, we have to remember that as the temperature of the root system warms, the rate of respiration of the root tissue also increases and more oxygen is required by the plant. For example, the respiration rate of the roots will double for each 10C rise in temperature up to 30C (86 F). So the situation can develop where the solution temperature increases from 20 - 30C (68 - 86 F) during the day, with a mature crop, then the requirement for oxygen will double while the oxygen carrying capacity of the solution will drop by over 25%. This means that the dissolved oxygen in solution will be much more rapidly depleted and the plants can suffer from oxygen starvation for a period of time.

The symptoms of oxygen starvation which can occur in both NFT and media based systems can be difficult to pick up as they are very general signs. Media based plants are just as prone to oxygen starvation in hydroponic systems as those grown in solution culture, but here we must also take into account the 'air filled porosity' of the media used. This is simply how much air can permeate between the particles in the substrate and selection of a free draining media which won't break down will ensure that maximum aeration is going to reach the root zone. Injury from low (or no) oxygen in the root zone can take several forms and these will differ in severity between species. Often the first sign of inadequate oxygen supply to the roots is wilting of the plant during the warmest part of the day when temperature and light levels are highest. Insufficient oxygen reduces the permeability of roots to water and there will be the accumulation of toxins, thus both water and minerals cannot be absorbed in sufficient quantities to support plant growth particularly under stress conditions. This wilting is accompanied by slower rates of photosynthesis and carbohydrate transfer, so that over time, plant growth is reduced and yields will be affected. If oxygen starvation continues, mineral deficiencies will begin to show, roots will die back and plants will become stunted. Under continuing anaerobic conditions, plants produce a stress hormone - ethylene which accumulates in the roots and causes collapse of the root cells. Once root deterioration caused by anaerobic conditions has begun, opportunist pathogens such as Pythium can easily take hold and rapidly destroy the plant.

Another more visible and longer term effect of oxygen starvation which also occurs in waterlogged crops is leaf 'epinasty'. Epinasty is a downward curvature of the plant leaves, resulting in plants which look wilted. If the oxygen starvation continues and is severe, then eventually leaf chlorosis yellowing, premature leaf and flower abscission will occur.

So, to sum it up, a difference of just 10C has an impact of over 25% of the water's ability to hold oxygen. It is a double whammy because not only do the roots need more oxygen but the water can't hold nearly as much when it's so hot. If this situation occurs and a grower does not have sufficient external aeration of the res (like the 35" airstones and mixing pump) than wilting of the plant, slow growth, collapsing of the root system and cells will occur, leading to anaerobic conditions like pythium or other root diseases.

 

[ITryToGrow]

You have to love those moments, they are the feelings I seek because it is the feeling of knowledge backed by truth and your own experience.

I truly do! And they're the reason I keep coming back to ICMAG.

I believe that insulation of the res and lines as well as a bigger reservoir will help lower your temps. The bigger res will also give the plants a longer exposure to the ph range as it drifts slower. Insulation is good for at least a couple degrees F but a 1/4 hp chiller and a bigger res is what I would do to ensure hot days don't fry the roots! Seriously if it drifts much past 78F I would say you are heading down a dark path.

Which lines? Air-lines? Why?

At the moment I think any modification is out of the question. It's just too crowded, which is nice, but it makes modifying the setup difficult, if not impossible.

But there will be a lot of mods after this run.

Chiller
Bigger res
Perhaps some other gadgets to help with overall temp and RH

However, you are always going to be your plant's best advocate and will always be better at diagnosing than someone else as long as you have heads up towards what problems one might encounter.

Yes, true, but at the same time I'm more of a tech-guy than a green-fingers-guy. But I'm learning!

So the input I get from you guys is priceless!

If you can add insulation and increase the res and the temp goes down to 73F or 74F and never higher than 75F I would say it's not worth buying a $150 chiller. However, it more than pays for itself in one harvest if it prevents the res from frying the roots.

In your case, with the temps and res size, regular flushing is definitely recommended

Hmm, in my part of the woods a 1/8hp chiller goes for around $500-600, but I still think it's worth it! Nothing is to good for my ladies.

I flush once a week.

I'm also waiting for some new products to try out:

Bio balancer
Wilt guard
Regen-A-Root

What do you guys think?

Thanks!

Cheers

 

[Raphael]

I truly do! And they're the reason I keep coming back to ICMAG.




Which lines? Air-lines? Why?

At the moment I think any modification is out of the question. It's just too crowded, which is nice, but it makes modifying the setup difficult, if not impossible.

But there will be a lot of mods after this run.

Chiller
Bigger res
Perhaps some other gadgets to help with overall temp and RH

Probably the most aha moments I have had was while perusing the "ask Lucas" thread found on another forum but ICMAG is my home and it awesome peeps. Still, I printed out the ask Lucas thread and went through and highlighted and read about 200 pages of just Lucas' responses. I'm not jumping his jock or anything, but his methodology has proven itself over time as he got his formula from Mel Franks' work. The cannastats site and nute calculator and yield o rama are all products of the same ideology. Keep It Simple Stupid!

I was referring to pipes that have water running through them, not your air lines. So I guess I was thinking about the water lines that go from the tables to the res. Thinking about it now, insulating the tables and res' would probably go further than the lines as you are running the nft tables.

Yes, true, but at the same time I'm more of a tech-guy than a green-fingers-guy. But I'm learning!

So the input I get from you guys is priceless!

That's funny, I work in the information technology sector. I find many similarities between technology and biology. For example, Japan's public transport bullet train service unintentionally turned out to mimic a naturally occurring slime strain that is remarkably efficient at transporting food between different colonies.

The white crumbs are pieces of food that are placed in corresponding places of large Japanese cities in relation to their geography. The lines that start to accumulate is the slime building a very efficient system of resource allocation that comes startlingly close to the Japanese model. IIRC the mapping of Japan's transportation system was done without any knowledge of the slime. Just a bunch of math geeks who crunched numbers so long they almost got as efficient as nature.

Hmm, in my part of the woods a 1/8hp chiller goes for around $500-600, but I still think it's worth it! Nothing is to good for my ladies.

Well I would suggest looking on craigslist...I just checked it out and in my area I could get a 1/10 for 180 or 1/4 for 280 so I was pretty off earlier stating 1/4 for $150, my bad.

I flush once a week.

I'm also waiting for some new products to try out:

Bio balancer
Wilt guard
Regen-A-Root

What do you guys think?

Thanks!

Cheers

Flushing once a week is good for your situation, I would continue it until you have a chiller and bigger res. Once you have that (and you hook up a float valve for auto top off...it isn't hard) then I would say to not flush unless you are seeing problems...

In my opinion products like wilt guard and regen a root are to fix specific issues that are not present in a proper growing environment.

With the proper level of nutrients at the right ph consistently there is no need for the wilt guard, regen a root, or bio balancer.

In other words, after you make the modifications (and even at this point) I would argue against those products mostly because you have an awesome growing environment that won't need those bandaid fixes.

The best healthcare anyone could ever have is a good healthy diet and regular exercise. Stop living at McDonald's and eating those acidic foods that lower your bodies pH! There are studies linking a high pH diet and treatment that stops cancer link here

Anyways I think I was just giving another example of how humans are similar to plants in that our pH has to remain within a relative spectrum and when it's not deficiencies and diseases occur.

Damn this shit has got me straight rambling...lol cheers

 

[ITryToGrow]

Probably the most aha moments I have had was while perusing the "ask Lucas" thread found on another forum but ICMAG is my home and it awesome peeps. Still, I printed out the ask Lucas thread and went through and highlighted and read about 200 pages of just Lucas' responses. I'm not jumping his jock or anything, but his methodology has proven itself over time as he got his formula from Mel Franks' work. The cannastats site and nute calculator and yield o rama are all products of the same ideology. Keep It Simple Stupid!

Damn! That's ambitious! And so am I, got this weekends work cut out for me then, haha!

That's funny, I work in the information technology sector.

Me too!

For example, Japan's public transport bullet train service unintentionally turned out to mimic a naturally occurring slime strain that is remarkably efficient at transporting food between different colonies.

Leave it to the Japanese!

Did you know that the accumulated late arrivals for that same train (shinkansen?) is 6 minutes... per year!

Well I would suggest looking on craigslist...I just checked it out and in my area I could get a 1/10 for 180 or 1/4 for 280 so I was pretty off earlier stating 1/4 for $150, my bad.

Will do. No worries!

In my opinion products like wilt guard and regen a root are to fix specific issues that are not present in a proper growing environment.

With the proper level of nutrients at the right ph consistently there is no need for the wilt guard, regen a root, or bio balancer.

In other words, after you make the modifications (and even at this point) I would argue against those products mostly because you have an awesome growing environment that won't need those bandaid fixes.

You're right and I agree, however, one problem (from what I understand) with using chem nutes (which I do) is the absence of beneficial microbes.

So after "cleaning" with H2O2, adding Bio Balancer should be a good thing, no?

The best healthcare anyone could ever have is a good healthy diet and regular exercise. Stop living at McDonald's and eating those acidic foods that lower your bodies pH! There are studies linking a high pH diet and treatment that stops cancer link here

Anyways I think I was just giving another example of how humans are similar to plants in that our pH has to remain within a relative spectrum and when it's not deficiencies and diseases occur.

Damn this shit has got me straight rambling...lol cheers

Haha! Ramble on my friend, ramble on!

 

[U4EA]

Wow. Only on page 1 but nice setup!

 

[ITryToGrow]

Wow. Only on page 1 but nice setup!

Hey U4EA!

Thanks for stopping by, keep on reading.

 

[IamNug]

I think that you should reconsider your opinion that colder temps holding more oxygen isn't important or really that critical.

As the temperature of the root zone increases, every function of the plant increases. This increases the amount of dissolved oxygen needed by the plant. The hotter the res temps get, the less oxygen it can hold; but at the same time the plant needs more oxygen than usual.

I will refer you to this little article that I think sums up the need of dissolved oxygen as temperatures rise...It also explains what symptoms may appear due to insufficient oxygen.



So, to sum it up, a difference of just 10C has an impact of over 25% of the water's ability to hold oxygen. It is a double whammy because not only do the roots need more oxygen but the water can't hold nearly as much when it's so hot. If this situation occurs and a grower does not have sufficient external aeration of the res (like the 35" airstones and mixing pump) than wilting of the plant, slow growth, collapsing of the root system and cells will occur, leading to anaerobic conditions like pythium or other root diseases.

Right on, I get the argument for worst case scenario, heats up needs more but has less.

But my point is this:

How much of the available oxygen in the water column is actually used by the plant. And I know the first thing you will say is 'it varies by strain'.

My point again being you know how much oxygen is in the water, and at what temperature the oxygen levels change.

How is this correlated to the amount of oxygen ROOTS are ACTUALLY using in cannabis. Do roots use 100% of the available oxygen at said temperatures? I tend to think, no.

However a temperature where harmful bacteria can take over a healthy root might be a different issue, not necessarily based on the level of oxygen? I could be wrong but I still haven't seen where the plants are actually using what percent of available oxygen and at what temperatures.

I guess it leads me to emphasize the ph and stability of the system more so than oxygen levels. anyways, oxygen is definitely a factor, but how much so? Apparently 68 degrees f is the optimum temperature. Is the the temp at which plants are consuming the most oxygen?

Hey ittg, hope you follow where I'm coming from.

ttys



edit: also how would you know if you had increased the oxygen level in the water to 100% of it's capacity?

 

[ITryToGrow]

I guess it leads me to emphasize the ph and stability of the system more so than oxygen levels. anyways, oxygen is definitely a factor, but how much so? Apparently 68 degrees f is the optimum temperature. Is the the temp at which plants are consuming the most oxygen?

Perhaps the steps you take to stabilize the system automagically produces a higher percentage of DO?

Hey ittg, hope you follow where I'm coming from.

Fo sho! This is how you learn, you ask questions and you question things.

edit: also how would you know if you had increased the oxygen level in the water to 100% of it's capacity?

Perhaps with this?

Cheers

 

[Raphael]

Damn! That's ambitious! And so am I, got this weekends work cut out for me then, haha!

Well it was mostly because I was going through a period of time where I repeatedly told myself and tried to convince myself I wasn't overwatering the coco but it turns out I was. I found the ask Lucas thread and used google to look through it for specific terms that were related to my issue. It's funny that as you go from forum to forum on the internet that the "tried and true" methods will vary with the url haha. That is why I like Lucas, because he broke it down to the basics so that if you meet the criteria you will have top notch healthy plants no matter what system you decide to go with. I have used his ideas in bio buckets, soil, coco, ebb n flow, and aeroponics and have produced top shelf bud each time. You can hurt a strain's flavor and potency through stress during the grow but you cannot add flavor to it; the genetics dictate the flavor and potency "ceiling."

Me too!

Nice! Another fellow geek Too bad our industry will shrink a lot over the next five years as google dominates the technology sector through their OS's found in set top boxes, tvs, cars, phones. The bad thing is that all the hardware will simply work for the end user! No updates, no drivers, and the OS check sums itself on every bootup. If the system image is corrupt...it downloads a secure copy from their servers.

Still, the benefits of cloud computing (streaming hd games over the internet straight to your tv for example) will far outweigh the easy buck we make now "managing" infrastructure. Lol. A proper IT manager sets it up right the first time, so all that is left is updates and viruses and random events like error between keyboard and monitor. Those will be gone in the next five years and people will have confidence using their phone as a "wallet." At least my phone has an easy to open battery cover so I can actually disable gps and sound recording when I need to.

Google's biggest challenge will be to maintain the image of complete security and that it's ok to let them have all of the data in the world including all of our personal data and that they won't mismanage it.

Leave it to the Japanese!

Did you know that the accumulated late arrivals for that same train (shinkansen?) is 6 minutes... per year!

WOW! That is insane...I am glad if the public transportation around here isn't 6 minutes late every day!

You're right and I agree, however, one problem (from what I understand) with using chem nutes (which I do) is the absence of beneficial microbes.

So after "cleaning" with H2O2, adding Bio Balancer should be a good thing, no?

Haha! Ramble on my friend, ramble on!

It doesn't matter what type of nutrients you use. Organic nutrients are still chemicals and have the same molecular buildup as "chem" nutes. Regardless of what nutes you use, when there is proper levels of dissolved oxygen and the temperature is in the right range, the reservoir will naturally colonize beneficial bacteria or microbes that break down dead plant matter and convert it into usable plant food. There is some debate as to the actual benefit of those beneficial bacteria, but it doesn't hurt to have them and they do eat dead plant material, the stuff you are getting rid of using H2O2.

Now the thing with H2O2 is that it kills beneficial bacteria/microbes! It also kills the harmful bacteria, or the anaerobic bacteria. The harmful bacteria colonizes and thrives in low oxygen environments and once it gets a foot in the door like pythium it's a hard battle to win if you have to also fight environmental problems like the res temp.

If you have the right amount of oxygen in your res (you do) then when the temperature is dialed in (next grow) you will not need to use any of the H2O2. It is another product designed to bandaid a problem. It is good at cleaning equipment between grows though. So using a bandaid like H2O2 makes it so you need another bandaid, the bio balancer, to re-colonize the beneficial bacteria! Except you will have to repeat this every week because you flush and use H2O2 every week! It sounds a bit like prescription drugs and getting prescriptions to counter the side effects of another prescription when the actual solution is simple (your case, lower res temps and bigger res)

And now's the time, the time is now, to sing my song.

How much of the available oxygen in the water column is actually used by the plant. And I know the first thing you will say is 'it varies by strain'.

My point again being you know how much oxygen is in the water, and at what temperature the oxygen levels change.

How is this correlated to the amount of oxygen ROOTS are ACTUALLY using in cannabis. Do roots use 100% of the available oxygen at said temperatures? I tend to think, no.

I would guesstimate the amount of oxygen needed by the plant varies throughout the day as well as throughout the different stages of the plants life, as well as naturally increasing as the plant grows bigger.

I would say that the plant is not using 100% of the oxygen until you start seeing symptoms of oxygen deprivation and the other variables have been eliminated. In ITryToGrow's system his plants probably have enough oxygen at 77F, and definitely will have enough dissolved oxygen at 68F.

In summary, I agree with you. Barring extreme cases of environmental issues, plants don't use 100% of the dissolved oxygen in the water.

However a temperature where harmful bacteria can take over a healthy root might be a different issue, not necessarily based on the level of oxygen? I could be wrong but I still haven't seen where the plants are actually using what percent of available oxygen and at what temperatures.

Harmful bacteria actually colonize when there is not enough oxygen present in the reservoir, not when the temp gets too hot. The harmful bacteria colonize in water from 68F to 86F link so do the beneficial bacteria.

There will always be bacteria in your reservoir. If there is proper oxygenation, then aerobic bacteria (beneficial) will colonize. If there is not enough oxygen, then anaerobic bacteria colonize (harmful).

I guess it leads me to emphasize the ph and stability of the system more so than oxygen levels. anyways, oxygen is definitely a factor, but how much so? Apparently 68 degrees f is the optimum temperature. Is the the temp at which plants are consuming the most oxygen?



edit: also how would you know if you had increased the oxygen level in the water to 100% of it's capacity?

I would argue that oxygen levels are just as important as the stability of the pH in a system, however achieving the right amount of oxygen levels is much easier than maintaining the consistent pH over time.

Actually, I would imagine 68F would see slower uptake and respiration rates as it is much colder than 77F. The optimum range for the temperature of the res does go from 68F-78F. Once you go over that top threshold the plants will start to go into shock and stop absorbing nutrients and pretty much starve themselves.

Rather than shooting for 100% dissolved oxygen levels, trying to make it so the water really is turbulent and very active with lots of bubbles is enough.

Again, this article is a good read on "Nutrient Temperature, Oxygen and Pythium in Hydroponics."

So to summarize, ITryToGrow has sufficient oxygenation in his current setup. It is easier to get to the right amount of dissolved oxygen than it is to keep the pH drifting the right way, although it is just a little learning curve. Remember, less is more and keep it simple stupid! The amount of oxygen has more to do with Pythium, root rot, and bad bacteria than the temperature of the reservoir.

Cheers!

 

[ITryToGrow]

It's funny that as you go from forum to forum on the internet that the "tried and true" methods will vary with the url haha.

Not all that uncommon when it comes to the int3rn3tz and it's forums.

At the same time, the more information you can gather the easier it gets to make informed and educated decisions.

Nice! Another fellow geek

Indeed. However, I might be part of the cause of the shrinking industry since I'm an SaaS developer.

At least my phone has an easy to open battery cover so I can actually disable gps and sound recording when I need to.

That's actually one of the prime reasons I didn't jump on the iPhone train.

Google's biggest challenge will be to maintain the image of complete security and that it's ok to let them have all of the data in the world including all of our personal data and that they won't mismanage it.

Which probably, unfortunately, won't be that big of a challenge since most people are sheep more interested in Lindsey Lohans latest endeavors than what the politicians and the corporate thugs that funds them are up to.

It sounds a bit like prescription drugs and getting prescriptions to counter the side effects of another prescription when the actual solution is simple (your case, lower res temps and bigger res)

Wait for it... wait for it...

So basically, all I need when I have proper temps and proper aeration are the ingredients for the Lucas formula?

And H2O2 for cleaning.

So to summarize, ITryToGrow has sufficient oxygenation in his current setup. It is easier to get to the right amount of dissolved oxygen than it is to keep the pH drifting the right way, although it is just a little learning curve. Remember, less is more and keep it simple stupid! The amount of oxygen has more to do with Pythium, root rot, and bad bacteria than the temperature of the reservoir.

Check!

Now I'm REALLY looking forward to my next run!

 

[laughingmoon]

I came here from Raphael's growlog and I'm glad I did. Read all 7 pages and loving the mind expansion.
How bout some more pictures ITry?

 

[ITryToGrow]

I came here from Raphael's growlog and I'm glad I did. Read all 7 pages and loving the mind expansion.
How bout some more pictures ITry?

Me too! Welcome!

Hmm, sure, you have any special motif in mind?

Sorry to hear about the Dr Chronic debacle. I use female seeds and I've never been let down.

Cheers

 

[laughingmoon]

Me too! Welcome!

Hmm, sure, you have any special motif in mind?

Sorry to hear about the Dr Chronic debacle. I use female seeds and I've never been let down.

Cheers

why, your op of course! Let's see some nasty budshots

yeah, lots of money on mediocre strain not by choice, sucks

 

[Raphael]

At the same time, the more information you can gather the easier it gets to make informed and educated decisions.

I agree, and I see wireless internet being provided to every household in America which will help everyone become more informed about everything. I want to be able to login to vote.gov and view current issues and have forum discussions with others and then actually vote on policy over the web.

Indeed. However, I might be part of the cause of the shrinking industry since I'm an SaaS developer.

I hold no grudges sir, and look forward to not having to do windows updates over logmein ever ever again.

That's actually one of the prime reasons I didn't jump on the iPhone train.

Well that and the fact that the iPhone doesn't run multiple processes at once or have the process "memory" that the Android OS does. Oh ya and the free Wifi tether app, turning my phone into a mobile internet hotspot for me and the homies haha.

Which probably, unfortunately, won't be that big of a challenge since most people are sheep more interested in Lindsey Lohans latest endeavors than what the politicians and the corporate thugs that funds them are up to.

Seriously! I recently watched this documentary and it's about how the big money pulls the strings of every pres since kennedy and how obama has appointed only pro wall street douchebags like tim geithner who previously was the pres of the federal reserve and is now the secretary of treasury? The dude who controls the interest rate is now the dude that plays golf with the bankers...the ones who care and make money based on the interest rate...the $700bn interest free "bailout" to the banks? The banks turned around and loaned it back to the gov't AT INTEREST in order to help fund obama's stimulus programs that were bullshit. Remember cash for clunkers? All it did was move future sales to the present, causing a drop in auto sales in the months following.

THIS was a retarded political move that anyone with a brain would object to. Why would you give away your bmw 530 that can go 350,000 and is paid off in order to drive a PIECE OF SHIT toyota or other foreign funded auto mfg and pay them MONTHLY for the next 10 years? Oh ya because the gov't wants us to be in debt, that's right!

Wait for it... wait for it...

So basically, all I need when I have proper temps and proper aeration are the ingredients for the Lucas formula?

And H2O2 for cleaning.

Check!

Now I'm REALLY looking forward to my next run!

You got it! I can't wait either