Legalize MJ ! Really? No I mean REALLY?

[Sam_Skunkman]

I see a fairly common thread in this forum. Most think and want legalization. Well, there is nothing wrong with that is there?

Well, let me clue you in a bit about our government passing laws and granting rights.

If you think it is all a fairly simple thing, think again. The only way the government can really do the right thing here is by de-criminalizing possession and use. BUT IT WILL NOT STOP THERE.

The government, our U.S. government has a very bad habit of trying not to leave any money on the table for it's citizens. So bring the tax man to the equation and let's all pony up. Imagine, paying commerce taxes on a common weed.

But wait! It gets even better. Government regulation will bring.... wait for it..... government regulation. Aside from the fact that any and all government regulation ALWAYS makes entry into that specific business more difficult and more expensive, thereby stifling competition, there are even more headaches to follow.

Enter the USDA. Want to be a grower, well be sure to follow the rules here. Specific cultural practices, such as applying the most "organic" of compounds, is a time consuming, money wasting "pain in the ass" process.

Sulfer application. Well, in order to now buy the sulfur, you need to be a licensed PCO or PCA. You must have documented to the USDA how many acres of specific crops and strains you farm (or # of plants in this case) or you cannot buy at the local Ag Supplier. Can't buy there? You will then spend more for the same product thereby making your product more expensive to produce then your competition. And be prepared to report to the local County Ag Commissioner within 3 days of applying sulfur, the rate, the product I.D., the weather and wind conditions at the time of application, and on and on. Farmers need full time secretaries just doing that ONE thing. Reporting to the government.

Then try using a registered fungicide or pesticide and multiply the problems X 10. And don't you dare deviate from the label or your crop will be Red-Tagged and dumped by the government. They cross reference the amount you buy (ag suppliers must report who bought what to the government) with the amount of acres you operate.

Then bring the quality control of proper labeling of weight and Variety. You want to play in this game? You better make and register your own labels and you better follow all the rules.

Then, the USDA will grade your product before you can sell it. Why not? It does so on EVERY other crop grown and distributed in this country.

I could go on and on but here it is in a nutshell.

Before you jump on any "legalize marijuana" bandwagon, you better make sure you read the law and you know the unintended consequences.
Because what will happen is that a VERY few VERY well funded folks will survive. The rest will be regulated out of business. The black market will never go away. But doing business there will always prevent you from being legit.

I would think just plain old de-criminalization is the way to go. But once the government sets their sights on using MJ as a tax stream, we're all fucked. There are a few well funded proponents of legalizing marijuana that know this and are using everyone's desire to de-criminalize as a way to cement their foot in the door while making sure you are never allowed in.

Think before you act.

grapeman,
WTF are you talking about? I have fought all my adult life to legalize Cannabis and bring it into mainstream culture. I want it to be treated like Alcohol, or Tobacco, both of which are dominated by big biz yet still have small wineries and brewers if you prefer them.
You act as if compliance with USDA is something that is hard to do? Then how do all the tomato, fruit, veggie growers manage to comply and most make a profit?

"Sulfer application. Then try using a registered fungicide or pesticide and multiply the problems X 10. And don't you dare deviate from the label or your crop will be Red-Tagged and dumped by the government. They cross reference the amount you buy (ag suppliers must report who bought what to the government) with the amount of acres you operate."

I for one want to know if some asshole grower is using sulfur or fungicides or pesticides or herbicides on his Cannabis crop to increase his profits, at the cost of his customers health.

I for one am tired of illegal or de-criminalized Cannabis. I am tired of the over 800,000 Cannabis arrests a year for more then 70 years, under the present system. I suspect you have other reasons you don't want Cannabis legalized, like having to compete with real agri-biz that can grow legal Cannabis for less then $100 a kilo and make it real hard to make a living from a room under lights.

Legalize Cannabis today, don't listen to the nay sayers, they have their own private agenda, and most do not care about Cannabis.

-SamS

 

[Frozenguy]

I am not a fan of this bill.

Any bill that sends an 18 year old away for seven years in prison for a nonviolent "crime" in which both parties are willingly participating and benefiting, is not a good bill IMO.


The 25sqft rule, which includes your harvested drying plants, is a joke. But I'm sure that has been covered (most will say they dont care lol), and I'm medical so I'll be limitless.

Its sad and pathetic that this bill is the one that was pushed. Money can do a lot of things, as can the greed for more money.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

BTW,
I have felt for 35+ years that when Cannabis is legalized few people will grow their own. Lets be honest, how many grow their own food? How many brew their own beer, or make their own wine? Or grow their own tobacco in the states where legal to grow for your own use? Way less then .1%, lets be honest, because you can go down to the local supermarket or 7-11 and buy cigarettes, beer, wine, food. Once the novelty of legal Cannabis is gone in a few years few will bother to grow their own Cannabis. I know you don't want to hear this but face the facts, how many make their own beer? Or wine? Or tobacco? Or even grow their own food? Why should Cannabis be any different when legal? When the next generation grows up with legal Cannabis, they will not find it so "special" they will buy it when they want it, at the local market....
I know there will be exceptions, I am amongst them, but I have grown my own food for years and I am dedicated to farming, outdoors in a field with tractors.
Few will bother when they don't need to.
-SamS

 

[Frozenguy]

BTW,
I have felt for 35+ years that when Cannabis is legalized few people will grow their own. Lets be honest, how many grow their own food? How many brew their own beer, or make their own wine? Or grow their own tobacco in the states where legal to grow for your own use? Way less then .1%, lets be honest, because you can go down to the local supermarket or 7-11 and buy cigarettes, beer, wine, food. Once the novelty of legal Cannabis is gone in a few years few will bother to grow their own Cannabis. I know you don't want to hear this but face the facts, how many make their own beer? Or wine? Or tobacco? Or even grow their own food? Why should Cannabis be any different when legal? When the next generation grows up with legal Cannabis, they will not find it so "special" they will buy it when they want it, at the local market....
I know there will be exceptions, I am amongst them, but I have grown my own food for years and I am dedicated to farming, outdoors in a field with tractors.
Few will bother when they don't need to.
-SamS

freedom

And just because 99.9% of the world doesn't feel like doing something, doesn't mean the 0.1% (6 million people) dont want to, or shouldn't be able to. What if I wanted to live in a forest of mj but it wasn't for commercial use. I wouldn't be able to because I dont want to buy the regulation licenses and whatnot for commercial grow ops.

But you are right, most will not care about growing their own, and the 25 sqft rule will effect only a fraction of the legal MJ users.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I am not a fan of this bill.

Its sad and pathetic that this bill is the one that was pushed. Money can do a lot of things, as can the greed for more money.

Funny, I thought it was greed for money that caused many growers to oppose the bill, as they fear loss of income.
Prices in California have already fallen almost in half wholesale, in the last 10 years. If legal the prices will really fall, remember you can buy Cannabis in many third world countries for $10-$100 a kilo and American farmers can produce agricultural crops cheaper then almost anyone anywhere, if the crop is legal.
When farmers start growing in the central valleys by the thousands of acres, you will see what Cannabis costs to grow, about the same as tomatoes....

-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

freedom

And just because 99.9% of the world doesn't feel like doing something, doesn't mean the 0.1% (6 million people) dont want to, or shouldn't be able to. What if I wanted to live in a forest of mj but it wasn't for commercial use. I wouldn't be able to because I dont want to buy the regulation licenses and whatnot for commercial grow ops.

But you are right, most will not care about growing their own, and the 25 sqft rule will effect only a fraction of the legal MJ users.

You are wrong, it is .1% of the users or growers of Cannabis in the USA I referred to, the number is maybe a few hundred thousand.
-SamS

 

[Frozenguy]

Unions=democracy in the work place. That is all. peace and *bong* everyone

WHAT? OMG. This is what I fear from unions.

Too many people in this world feel entitled. I dont know why.
Unions, can be good representation for a large group of workers, but when they started using that size as a force and leveraging tool to blackmail companies, well thats too far.

And a democracy? please, the boss is the BOSS. Dont you forget that.
And democracies are terrible. Thank god USA isn't a democracy.

The rule of the mob is, quite frankly, frightening LOL.

 

[Frozenguy]

You are wrong, it is .1% of the users or growers of Cannabis in the USA I referred to, the number is maybe a few hundred thousand.
-SamS

I am wrong? Thats kind of an unfair statement. My statement was very very right actually. I just didn't realize you were talking about the USA.

 

[Frozenguy]

Funny, I thought it was greed for money that caused many growers to oppose the bill, as they fear loss of income.
Prices in California have already fallen almost in half wholesale, in the last 10 years. If legal the prices will really fall, remember you can buy Cannabis in many third world countries for $10-$100 a kilo and American farmers can produce agricultural crops cheaper then almost anyone anywhere, if the crop is legal.
When farmers start growing in the central valleys by the thousands of acres, you will see what Cannabis costs to grow, about the same as tomatoes....

-SamS

Yeah the cannabis grown in third world countries is not the same as cannabis grown here, and from what I've seen (only in pictures not first hand mind you) the bud from those areas is not handled with care. Sun dried in piles. Transported in lumped piles. Not sure how its trimmed or cured, but you get the picture.

I dont fear prices falling as a grower. The only ones who fear the prices falling are the ones who produce mediocre pot at best, which is what will be flooding the market, at best.

Premium cannabis, grown with quality methods will still command a premium price. I look forward to legalization for this reason.

Think Sauza/Don Julio

 

[binaryfission]

grapeman come call Sam ignorant.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Yeah the cannabis grown in third world countries is not the same as cannabis grown here, and from what I've seen (only in pictures not first hand mind you) the bud from those areas is not handled with care. Sun dried in piles. Transported in lumped piles. Not sure how its trimmed or cured, but you get the picture.

I dont fear prices falling as a grower. The only ones who fear the prices falling are the ones who produce mediocre pot at best, which is what will be flooding the market, at best.

Premium cannabis, grown with quality methods will still command a premium price. I look forward to legalization for this reason.

Think Sauza/Don Julio

Think Thai sticks, sinsemilla that was or is as good as the best homegrown, over 20% THC, no seeds, no leaf, except it was $100 a kilo in Thailand.
Also do you think there is more cheap swag sold or premium Cannabis? In the USA most smokers prefer cheap, be honest.
If you think the market can't be flooded with high quality outdoor grown in the central valley, you are dreaming...
It is easy to produce tons and tons of highest quality, real easy, if legal.
Prices will continue to fall.... Until they are comparable to tomatoes.

-SamS

 

[Frozenguy]

Think Thai sticks, sinsemilla that was or is as good as the best homegrown, except it was $100 a kilo in Thailand.
Also do you think there is more cheap swag sold or premium Cannabis? In the USA most smokers prefer cheap, be honest.
If you think the market can't be flooded with high quality outdoor grown in the central valley, you are dreaming...
Prices will continue to fall.... Until they are comparable to tomatoes.

-SamS

I have to assume that is thai prices as well. Relatively speaking, I doubt it would be $100/kilo here.

But I do agree prices will drop. And I also agree that most smokers prefer cheap, but also prefer good cannabis. It just so happens good is usually not cheap.

I don't think the market can be/will be flooded with high quality outdoor. Just like you say prices will be comparable to tomatoes (how much are tomatoes?), I'm sure the common quality will be the same as well; mediocre at best.

Don't tell me you enjoy supermarket produce over fresh locally grown organic produce. Or maybe you do, and that is fine, but many don't. The masses buy it out of convenience, but there are still plenty of people that pay more for quality fresh produce if they don't just grow it their own.

I'm actually not too sure where our disagreement is, except for the quality of bud that will flood the market.


I just googled the price of tomatoes and I'm not sure if you were just using them as a general example for common produce, but they are about $3 a pound it looks like. I think bud will still command a heftier price then that. If I took that statement too literally excuse me and let me know.

 

[ButteredIt]

i still think this thread is all about boo hooing for commercial growers. great, you'll lose some dollars in the long run. but for the greater good, people will be able to grow their own medicine/relaxation. i can ferment my own wine, why cant i grow my own pot? its a plant? i have no problem with full on legalization, because i have no problem with being able to grow my own weed, just like i have no problem with brewing my own beer or growing my own tobacco (which i choose not to, but i have the freedom to). what ever happened to this whole freedom thing? now its about profits that our dream is coming true? sad.

 

[ButteredIt]

the majority of cannabis user smoke it to get HIGH!!!! have you forgotten? the majority of alcohol user drink to feel the effects, not because their beer/wine/liquor tastes great. YES there are those who appreciate the quality, like us with pot here on these boards. but this is a small minority. how many people do you know who g out of their way to buy only heirloom tomatoes? my neighbor does the only person i know. the point is the market does exist, and if your medicre pot doesn't fit the bill for the masses then boo hoo work on your niche market. LEGALIZATION IS ABOUT FREEDOM FOR ALL NOT PROFIT FOR FEW. my home-made wine may not be as good as the shit i shell out 50 bucks for, but at least i have the freedom to try. end of story.

 

[SeniorBuzz]

maybe I'm just lucky,

I received my mmj license in May, 2009
and have only really purchased from 2 dispensaries

GKG in Lucerne
GrannyPurps in Soquel

It's all really nice quality

No complaints

and it was all priced well

with the burgeoning number of dispensaries

and the anticipation of legality

lots of new growers, increased crop size,

resulting in increased quantity (better quality in dispensaries)

it's all good

 

[binaryfission]

So what the difference from a person who drink box wine and merlot? or swishers versus cuban cigars. or Organic produce vs gmo?

in my opinion its education of the product and then appreciation. How do we educate the consumer enough so they won't buy bad pot? how do we protect the Thai farmers with fair trade standards so as they can still earn a decent wage? they do it with coffee, why can't we do it with pot?

WE need to educate more folks and set up these standards before the industry does for us.

PEACE

 

[kmk420kali]

Think Thai sticks, sinsemilla that was or is as good as the best homegrown, over 20% THC, no seeds, no leaf, except it was $100 a kilo in Thailand.
Also do you think there is more cheap swag sold or premium Cannabis? In the USA most smokers prefer cheap, be honest.
If you think the market can't be flooded with high quality outdoor grown in the central valley, you are dreaming...
It is easy to produce tons and tons of highest quality, real easy, if legal.
Prices will continue to fall.... Until they are comparable to tomatoes.

-SamS

Sam...much Respect to ya for your skills and effort in the Cannabis World!!
But bro....the average yearly income in Thailand is 10,000 Baht...about $307 a year!! Think about the ratio of the price of that Kilo, to what they are making...and all of a sudden that is some pretty expensive sticks!!

 

[grapeman]

grapeman,
WTF are you talking about? I have fought all my adult life to legalize Cannabis and bring it into mainstream culture. I want it to be treated like Alcohol, or Tobacco, both of which are dominated by big biz yet still have small wineries and brewers if you prefer them.
You act as if compliance with USDA is something that is hard to do? Then how do all the tomato, fruit, veggie growers manage to comply and most make a profit?

"Sulfer application. Then try using a registered fungicide or pesticide and multiply the problems X 10. And don't you dare deviate from the label or your crop will be Red-Tagged and dumped by the government. They cross reference the amount you buy (ag suppliers must report who bought what to the government) with the amount of acres you operate."

I for one want to know if some asshole grower is using sulfur or fungicides or pesticides or herbicides on his Cannabis crop to increase his profits, at the cost of his customers health.

I for one am tired of illegal or de-criminalized Cannabis. I am tired of the over 800,000 Cannabis arrests a year for more then 70 years, under the present system. I suspect you have other reasons you don't want Cannabis legalized, like having to compete with real agri-biz that can grow legal Cannabis for less then $100 a kilo and make it real hard to make a living from a room under lights.

Legalize Cannabis today, don't listen to the nay sayers, they have their own private agenda, and most do not care about Cannabis.

-SamS

Having lived and worked my whole life complying to the ever changing USDA standards and rules, I can honestly tell you that the costs added to the end product is staggering. The point I was trying to explain is that this "legalization" will bring with it government scrutiny and layer upon layer of useless regulation that will add greatly to the cost of production. And it the FDA gets involved it will be worse.

Having dealt with these agencies for decades, my post was only food for thought and discussion purposes. Eyes wide open. You all need to know what it is you are wishing for.

My second point is that these dispensaries are not your friend. They are all in it for the money. If they can keep you out of the competition, they will and are.

 

[Thundurkel]

I suspect you have other reasons you don't want Cannabis legalized, like having to compete with real agri-biz that can grow legal Cannabis for less then $100 a kilo and make it real hard to make a living from a room under lights.

Legalize Cannabis today, don't listen to the nay sayers, they have their own private agenda, and most do not care about Cannabis.

-SamS

You're right Sam we don't want to compete with big tobacco and huge corps with billions of dollars. Why is it so bad to keep it MEDICAL??? Why put all of us that are finally making it in the world back into poverty looking for jobs that aren't there? The plant is already being taxed at clubs, they stopped plant limits to a point so why push it any further? It's not a good thing even Jack Herer was against this bill wake up folks Richard Lee wants to make you and your friends wait in line in the ghetto to buy his harvest only... It's in the works if it passes so please SAY NO!!!

 

[SeniorBuzz]

Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman
I have fought all my adult life to legalize Cannabis and bring it into mainstream culture. I want it to be treated like Alcohol, or Tobacco, both of which are dominated by big biz yet still have small wineries and brewers if you prefer them.
You act as if compliance with USDA is something that is hard to do? Then how do all the tomato, fruit, veggie growers manage to comply and most make a profit?

"Sulfer application. Then try using a registered fungicide or pesticide and multiply the problems X 10. And don't you dare deviate from the label or your crop will be Red-Tagged and dumped by the government. They cross reference the amount you buy (ag suppliers must report who bought what to the government) with the amount of acres you operate."

I for one want to know if some asshole grower is using sulfur or fungicides or pesticides or herbicides on his Cannabis crop to increase his profits, at the cost of his customers health.

I for one am tired of illegal or de-criminalized Cannabis. I am tired of the over 800,000 Cannabis arrests a year for more then 70 years, under the present system. I suspect you have other reasons you don't want Cannabis legalized, like having to compete with real agri-biz that can grow legal Cannabis for less then $100 a kilo and make it real hard to make a living from a room under lights.

Legalize Cannabis today, don't listen to the nay sayers, they have their own private agenda, and most do not care about Cannabis.

-SamS

I think the only thing between marijuana and legalization is putting some public protection in place at the state level. There's a lot of insanity going on around mmj infirmaries, that needs to get fixed before mj legalization. it's all negative press going into November