Legalize MJ ! Really? No I mean REALLY?

[Hash Zeppelin]

^If we let the chance to get somewhere now slip through our fingers we might get nowhere later.

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

VOTE YES IN NOVEMBER

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

......I guess I win. everybody vote yes. :

 

[grapeman]

this is very well said. It gets to the point that people are being motivated by fear on both sides of the issue. fear of jail by most, but fear of profit loss on the other.

I only think fear of jail is a credible fear. Fear of profit loss in a legal market is completely unreasonable. Human have used cannabis since before civilization formed. We used it before we were homosapiens even. homoerectus used it. They had to have because we evolved cannbanoid receptors in out brain.
Legalize it and your market with triple. big tobacco will LOSE money because (new smokers) people will not turn to them for stress. they will turn to your nor cal growers. In return big tobacco wont have enough money to continue investing into becoming big weed due to having to use it to stay in business, and pay for their crazy "lets make addict labs"

Also if we instate our OWN quality control/ rating system before it is federally legalized we will have Big tobacco by their balls. It will be like wine. You dont see cali wine makers like Scarecrow, and Screaming Eagle producing any cheap crap do you? They can still charge hundreds of dollrs per bottle. Shit I sell many wines, in the 5 star place where I work, that cost over a thousand dollars a bottle. Why can they charge that much. easy it is so HIGHLY RATED!! WE NEED a test market like cali though. the rules of Capitalism are on our side.

check my thread to see what I mean. Grape, I am sure you can dig this
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=2823361#post2823361
I have been trying to do this, but it is hard to get the right people interested. They are too busy trying to stay out of jail and still provided the nation with herb.

Self regulating quality control will always work in a free market. If the consumer doesn't like your product, he just won't buy from you again.

But I fear that once this product becomes legal, and especially considering the route of legalization (through the back door as a medical product), government regulation is inevitable. Dealing with the FDA on the one hand and the USDA on the other will be overwhelming to most growers. The collectives that have their foot in the door today will have a distinct advantage as these regulations will effectively prevent healthy competition due to high costs and efforts to play in the sandbox.

I do believe though, that these 'collectives" that feel they are cementing their advantage (by locking out competition) have vastly underestimated "agribusiness", and it's well funded players that already know how to play this game, own facilities that make the most progressive warehouse growers look like amateurs and know how to farm and market their products. Like it or not, they are the best farmers in the world. If they see money to be made, they'll be there in a heartbeat.

This I know as fact.

 

[igrowone]

there does seem to be a theme for certain parties here
federal legalization(or decriminalization, etc.) is going to happen in the near future
if that's true, then i'll agree, anything is possible in the 'growing business'
but i look as major federal change as a joke, we're not even close to it
and the Cali vote probably will have no effect on that score
if there is some hidden federal activity, that would be great
most of the stuff i see on recent federal activity sounds worse than better

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

Self regulating quality control will always work in a free market. If the consumer doesn't like your product, he just won't buy from you again.

But I fear that once this product becomes legal, and especially considering the route of legalization (through the back door as a medical product), government regulation is inevitable. Dealing with the FDA on the one hand and the USDA on the other will be overwhelming to most growers. The collectives that have their foot in the door today will have a distinct advantage as these regulations will effectively prevent healthy competition due to high costs and efforts to play in the sandbox.

I do believe though, that these 'collectives" that feel they are cementing their advantage (by locking out competition) have vastly underestimated "agribusiness", and it's well funded players that already know how to play this game, own facilities that make the most progressive warehouse growers look like amateurs and know how to farm and market their products. Like it or not, they are the best farmers in the world. If they see money to be made, they'll be there in a heartbeat.

This I know as fact.

oh good, I am glad our debate is going again. This is fun

yes some government regulation is going to happen, just as with every other single legit business. We all have to be prepared for that.

We do have one big advantage over the corporate farmers though. Most of the crops they grow are government subsidized. That is how they make the majority of their money. That is why we use corn in everything. This is why we use it for ethanol.

so either one of two things will happen with this. They wont grow pot because they wont make as much money off there mass produced crappy weed, and it will be crappy. They might be good farmers, but they dont know this plant.

...or they will grow hemp because it is 1000 times easier to get hemp than good bud. Also the hemp market will explode due to how much cheaper and better it is for fabric, paper, rope, and ethanol. It will make more money for them in the long run. Also knowing our government they will start subsidizing hemp because they always have to interfere, for the sole purpose of expanding power, like you said.

let the government keep busy with this instead of sending the dea after us.

 

[grapeman]

Originally posted by amsterdamandy in another thread as to his 8 reasons he opposes the current CA legalization initiative.

A) New Criminal Penalties:
To consume marijuana in front of a minor or for a 21 year old to pass a joint to his 20 year old friend would carry new penalties of up to $1,000 fine or six months in county jail.
This initiative also creates 2 new felonies for providing marijuana to minors with three to seven year minimum state prison sentences.
This initiative would not allow marijuana smoking in any "space" where minors are present. There are no similar restrictions that ban parents from smoking tobacco in the presence of their own children. This could mean that parents could be legally unable to smoke marijuana since this initiative also bans marijuana smoking in public.
This initiative would have no effect on people previously convicted of marijuana offences that would no longer be illegal under this initiative will they NOT be released from prison or receive a pardon.
I cannot support this initiative taxing marijuana as long as people are still in and will continue to be sent to prisons for growing and possessing marijuana.

B) Affect on current medical marijuana laws under Proposition 215:
This initiative would allow for the taxing of medical marijuana.
This initiative would also allow local governments to control & regulate medical marijuana grows. So many unbelievable conditions have already been proposed by local authorities including: no outdoor growing, limit the size of your garden no matter what your Doctor says, providing names of people living on the property of medical grows and requiring the names of medical marijuana patients to be grown for be submitted to the local authorities.
Medical marijuana patients would no longer be able to medicate in public. Since this initiative states "consumption in public or in a public place" would not be allowed, this would cover eating marijuana, vaporizing as well as smoking marijuana.
Medical marijuana patients would be limited to obtaining no more than one ounce at a time from any one store no matter what their Doctor says or how far away they live from a place that would legally be able to sell marijuana.

C) 25 square feet maximum grow area:
A ridiculous small area for which there is no other reason except to make people have to buy their marijuana from a store. Except for the few experienced expert marijuana growers that make no mistakes, 25 square feet is no where near enough for most of us to learn to grow our own. Let's say my housemate and I have to share a 25 square foot grow area. We get about 2 pounds from our once a year outdoor grow. Or we could each go and buy at a store one ounce each and every day for a year. That comes to over 45 pounds we would able to buy compared to about two pounds we could grow.

D) "Regulate cannabis like we do alcohol":
Then the initiative says "Allow adults to possess and consume small amounts of cannabis." Seems to me to be a contradiction.
There are no laws that restrict the amount of alcohol that you are allow to possess.
Private retail stores, groceries and convenience stores are allowed to sell alcohol but will not be able to sell marijuana. There is no age limit for handling alcohol in retail stores as long as a manager who is 21 or older is supervising. You only have to be 18 to serve alcohol in a restaurant. But this initiative states "all persons present in, employed by, or in any way involved in the operation of any such licensed premise are 21 or older."

E) Legal age of 21 to be covered by this initiative:
Why are adults age 18-20 not included?
The age to legally buy alcohol is now 21 due to drunk drivers and if any US state did not raise their legal drinking age to 21, it would be subjected to a ten percent decrease in it's annual federal highway apportionment. I know of no studies that show people 18-20 who consume marijuana are more dangerous drivers than those 18-20 who do not consume marijuana.

F) "consumption by the operator of any vehicle ... that impairs the operator":
While no one wants intoxicated dangerous drivers, I know of no test that proves a person is under the influence at the time of driving. Last week the Obama administration called for states to enact laws criminalizing motorists who drive with the residual presence of drug or inactive drug metabolites in their body. In the case of marijuana, these policies are especially egregious because its metabolites may remain present in urine for weeks or months after past use. Further, studies have consistently reported that the presence of marijuana metabolites is not associated with psychomotor impairment or an elevated risk of motor accident.

G) Hemp:
This initiative would allow the growing and processing of Hemp. But for some unknown reason, Hemp would only be allowed to be grown (and I think processed) if the local government allows and with any regulations they write. Is there any logical reason to leave Hemp growing to local authorities?

H) Unclear wording in this initiative:
"living and harvested cannabis plants shall be assessed by square footage, not by weight in determining the amounts set forth in section 11300(a)". So my question is "WHO" will be the "one that assess" what one grew in 25 square feet after the harvest?
Also "smoking cannabis in any space while minors are present". What is the California legal definition of a "space"?

This doesn't even go into the many problems discussed here regarding government regulation of growing reporting & distributing.

 

[watson540]

it's a baby step. you have to crawl before you walk.

I also fail to see how the above is so much worse than the way it is CURRENTLY

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

all of these things are already illegal.

and 25 square feet should be plenty. It is east to get a pound a square meter indoors. if you do sea of green with an indica then you can get two pounds per square meter. with 25 square feet you should be able to get 2 to 3 pounds every 3 months easy, and that is with no veg room. if you have a veg room, then you can get that every 2 months. If you smoke more than apound a month then you should cut back any ways.

also you can still avoid taxes. If you have a med card combined with new laws then you are really home free. the combo of laws lets you get away with anything you want, and it is really easy to stay under the med guise. also doctors wont even hesitate to give ot a rec after this because it wont be needed really. You can still require customers have one, and have you registered as caregiver, and then you can avoid the steep taxes, and sell you product for cheap thus under cutting other business that have to apply the steep tax. you get to help patients still, and beat your competition for non patients as well.
so basically if your customer still spend 200 bucks on a med card then you can avoid the long term taxes, which add up to the cost of a a med card after just 4 ounces.

 

[grapeman]

oh good, I am glad our debate is going again. This is fun

yes some government regulation is going to happen, just as with every other single legit business. We all have to be prepared for that.

We do have one big advantage over the corporate farmers though. Most of the crops they grow are government subsidized. That is how they make the majority of their money. That is why we use corn in everything. This is why we use it for ethanol.

so either one of two things will happen with this. They wont grow pot because they wont make as much money off there mass produced crappy weed, and it will be crappy. They might be good farmers, but they dont know this plant.

...or they will grow hemp because it is 1000 times easier to get hemp than good bud. Also the hemp market will explode due to how much cheaper and better it is for fabric, paper, rope, and ethanol. It will make more money for them in the long run. Also knowing our government they will start subsidizing hemp because they always have to interfere, for the sole purpose of expanding power, like you said.

let the government keep busy with this instead of sending the dea after us.

Most farmers DO NOT receive subsidies. but that isn't what I got from your post.

What you're saying is that I can consult for some of these agi business types eh?

LOL

 

[Sport Farmer]

Wait 'till Monsanto gets a hold of this, if it ever goes live... I wouldn't be suprised if they haven't already explored some options and have their patent applications ready to go.

 

[BiG H3rB Tr3E]

Its not perfect, but i'd rather have legalization then nothing. If we squabble over this, we may never get close to the legalization we want.

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

Most farmers DO NOT receive subsidies. but that isn't what I got from your post.

What you're saying is that I can consult for some of these agi business types eh?

LOL

Shit ya man! I have already been teaching people how grow, and set up dwc systems for years, I might as well make some dough from that.
ROFL

Wait 'till Monsanto gets a hold of this, if it ever goes live... I wouldn't be suprised if they haven't already explored some options and have their patent applications ready to go.

The food monsanto seed makes is crap, when you taste it next to organic not genetically altered food. I imagine the same would go for there nug quality.

Its not perfect, but i'd rather have legalization then nothing. If we squabble over this, we may never get close to the legalization we want.

i agree once again. we need to start somewhere.

 

[Sport Farmer]

I was suggesting that they might start trying to patent seeds and strains after they genetically tamper with them like they do with everything else they touch. I wouldn't put it past them at all. And then the idea of them obtaining patents and enforcing them upon herb growers in the future, like they presently are on Soybean, Corn and a variable plethora of other kinds of farmers today.

Time will tell..

 

[gingerale]

I see a fairly common thread in this forum. Most think and want legalization. Well, there is nothing wrong with that is there?

Well, let me clue you in a bit about our government passing laws and granting rights.

If you think it is all a fairly simple thing, think again. The only way the government can really do the right thing here is by de-criminalizing possession and use. BUT IT WILL NOT STOP THERE.

The government, our U.S. government has a very bad habit of trying not to leave any money on the table for it's citizens. So bring the tax man to the equation and let's all pony up. Imagine, paying commerce taxes on a common weed.

But wait! It gets even better. Government regulation will bring.... wait for it..... government regulation. Aside from the fact that any and all government regulation ALWAYS makes entry into that specific business more difficult and more expensive, thereby stifling competition, there are even more headaches to follow.

Enter the USDA. Want to be a grower, well be sure to follow the rules here. Specific cultural practices, such as applying the most "organic" of compounds, is a time consuming, money wasting "pain in the ass" process.

Sulfer application. Well, in order to now buy the sulfur, you need to be a licensed PCO or PCA. You must have documented to the USDA how many acres of specific crops and strains you farm (or # of plants in this case) or you cannot buy at the local Ag Supplier. Can't buy there? You will then spend more for the same product thereby making your product more expensive to produce then your competition. And be prepared to report to the local County Ag Commissioner within 3 days of applying sulfur, the rate, the product I.D., the weather and wind conditions at the time of application, and on and on. Farmers need full time secretaries just doing that ONE thing. Reporting to the government.

Then try using a registered fungicide or pesticide and multiply the problems X 10. And don't you dare deviate from the label or your crop will be Red-Tagged and dumped by the government. They cross reference the amount you buy (ag suppliers must report who bought what to the government) with the amount of acres you operate.

Then bring the quality control of proper labeling of weight and Variety. You want to play in this game? You better make and register your own labels and you better follow all the rules.

Then, the USDA will grade your product before you can sell it. Why not? It does so on EVERY other crop grown and distributed in this country.

I could go on and on but here it is in a nutshell.

Before you jump on any "legalize marijuana" bandwagon, you better make sure you read the law and you know the unintended consequences.
Because what will happen is that a VERY few VERY well funded folks will survive. The rest will be regulated out of business. The black market will never go away. But doing business there will always prevent you from being legit.

I would think just plain old de-criminalization is the way to go. But once the government sets their sights on using MJ as a tax stream, we're all fucked. There are a few well funded proponents of legalizing marijuana that know this and are using everyone's desire to de-criminalize as a way to cement their foot in the door while making sure you are never allowed in.

Think before you act.

and assuming this is all true (which it's not--it's alarmist bullshit), just how is this any worse than the status quo?

 

[grapeman]

and assuming this is all true (which it's not--it's alarmist bullshit), just how is this any worse than the status quo?

Worse? It's always worse when the government steps in and regulates your business. I farm for a living and do this inane reporting to the government on which products we use on our crops. We need to do this on a daily basis. I am also a PCA (Pest Control Applicator). I know this game. You don't. I already deal with these agencies daily. You don't. If you can't see the larger dispensaries already jockeying for position, then you are a fool.

ONLY UNION MEMBERS DON'T KNOW THIS or want to admit it. Mostly because union members provide a service at above market rate wages with above market rate benefits. Why the fuck do you think we needed to bail out GM? The teachers and prison guard unions are next. WTF? You expect ME to work my whole life just to pay enough taxes so prison guards and store clerks (MJ dispensary employees are no more experienced then 7-Eleven clerks) can retire with more benefits then me? Are you kidding me? Flipping burgers at MD's is more complicated then working in a dispensary. Unionize MJ sales clerks? WTF. This was done NOT because the owners are compassionate people, but because they want to grow their business at the expense of you or I, or anyone else being able to enter the business to compete with them. Wake the fuck up. Unions are evil. Once needed in our history, they now are a pariah on our society.

Unions cost money, increases the cost of doing business, decreases competition and prevents smaller, more efficient businesses from entering the field, which effectively BLOCKS competition.

You enjoy competition when you go to the supermarket to buy lettuce, or to Verizon to buy a phone but you lack the critical thinking skills to see that this marriage with the government and the unions will fuck you (and the rest of us) in the end when it comes to this product.

Which leads me to a story last week wherein the lying dumbasses up in Oakland have now unionized their dispensary staff.

And so it begins. They will make a deal with the devil (the unions and the government) for money and power and it will effectively prevent smaller operations from entering the business over time. Just as I referred to in my original post. They will control all distribution and you will sell your product to them, at the rate they set or you will sell it on the black market to make the money you deserve. When you do that, you will still be breaking all the laws you are breaking today. Only difference is that now, aside from the government watching you, the fucking unions will watch you also.

If you can't see or understand this, then you have no critical thinking skills. I recommend that you just join a union. You my friend, are an obvious product of the public school system.

 

[dagnabit]

ive said it before and ill say it again..

there is no more harsh regulation than outright prohibition.
when people post things like

It's always worse when the government steps in and regulates your business.

it is a misleading statement.
the government is regulating mj now any legalization (including this proposal) is a loosening of current regulation.
if you are a grape grower and the government of California were to prohibit the growing and possession of grapes would you call that deregulation?

 

[DεvíLδck]

Unions=democracy in the work place. That is all. peace and *bong* everyone

 

[kmk420kali]

Unions=democracy in the work place. That is all. peace and *bong* everyone

Democracy?? The business has an "Owner"...he is boss-- It is not a Democracy--
Peace bro...I just disagree--

 

[Pythagllio]

Unions had there place back in the days when single employers could play life and death because it was work for them or starve because they were the only game in town. Frankly some of the best employers are non-union, and know if they treat their employees right that they'll get better employees who do better work and end up bringing in more profit. I must say one of the funniest things I ever saw involved a friend who worked for the Teamsters as a computer tech. They're not unionized, and one day my friend decides he wants to unionize his shop. The Teamsters were very resistant to the idea. Though quite franly I don't know wtf he would have had them add to his pay and bennies. Full time, very generous paycheck for a 32 1/2 hour work week coffee breaks included in 'on the clock time', unlimited sick pay, 4 weeks vacation, every holiday you could possibly imagine off with pay or if he ended up working 2.5x base pay, 5 personal days a year, for christ sake man what the hell do you need with a union with those work terms?

Unions democracy in the workplace? Yeah, if you use the classic definition of democracy. Two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner.