Organics and PH-Lets settle this once and for all?

[Microbeman]

The size of the grow has nothing at all to do with it. It's time that I am talking about. Time becomes the enemy when things are not maintained at optimum levels.

My experience has been that over time if I allow and encourage the ongoing life of the soil (microbially) is that the pH stabalizes to that conducive to the plant life growing in the soil. That is as long as I don't do something silly like try out some crazy fertilizer or something. I do realize that not everyone can do this. (generally in soil, bacteria create a higher pH and fungi a lower so in a balanced ratio with input from the plants given sufficient organic matter the pH should balance to the appropriate level)

 

[BurnOne]

This whole debate could be settled in a matter of months if a few would stop writing a bunch of theory on cannabis forums and do a side by side grow. Either get up off your lazy ass and do a comparison grow or STFU. I've done it already. Several times.
You MUST use clones so you are dealing with identical plants.
You MUST use an organic soil mix full of humates and living bacteria or just forget the whole thing. I suggest LC's Mix for every plant all from the exact same batch.
You also MUST use the exact same recipe for food. Again, one of the beginners recipes would be fine. Just use the exact same recipe from the exact same batch at the exact same time.
I suggest trying at least four or more plants.
For half the plants in the test grow, worry, test, adjust and theorize over pH. On the other half, just use one of the recipes as directed. Forget pH exists for that half of the grow.
That is the ONLY way to settle this debate. I settled it this exact same way for myself years ago.
You can write and talk until you're blue in the face but until you use a test group you are just blowing smoke (literally).
Burn1

 

[Stoned Crow]

This whole debate could be settled in a matter of months if a few would stop writing a bunch of theory on cannabis forums and do a side by side grow. Either get up off your lazy ass and do a comparison grow or STFU. I've done it already. Several times.
You MUST use clones so you are dealing with identical plants.
You MUST use an organic soil mix full of humates and living bacteria or just forget the whole thing. I suggest LC's Mix for every plant all from the exact same batch.
You also MUST use the exact same recipe for food. Again, one of the beginners recipes would be fine. Just use the exact same recipe from the exact same batch at the exact same time.
I suggest trying at least four or more plants.
For half the plants in the test grow, worry, test, adjust and theorize over pH. On the other half, just use one of the recipes as directed. Forget pH exists for that half of the grow.
That is the ONLY way to settle this debate. I settled it this exact same way for myself years ago.
You can write and talk until you're blue in the face but until you use a test group you are just blowing smoke (literally).
Burn1

B1 - What were your results? To Ph or Not To Ph?......SC

 

[etinarcadiaego]

For half the plants in the test grow, worry, test, adjust and theorize over pH. On the other half, just use one of the recipes as directed. Forget pH exists for that half of the grow.
That is the ONLY way to settle this debate. I settled it this exact same way for myself years ago.
You can write and talk until you're blue in the face but until you use a test group you are just blowing smoke (literally).
Burn1

I thought my first post nut-shelled pH well enough for a novice like myself. I use a mix of my own design . . .

But the thread is dedicated to whether or not pH matters in organics (whether using LCs mix or a custom mix) and of course it matters. I check my runoff periodically, I don't worry, and it takes all of 5 seconds to catch 2-3 drips of runoff into a tube and add a couple of drops of solutions, and BAM! > pH!

Why do I do it, and why is it beneficial? To know whether or not your adding the correct amounts of acidity buffers, to know whether or not the mix needs tweaking or adjustment.

I don't understand the premise behind "It doesn't matter in organics - forget it."

Organic chemistry and it's effects on soil chemistry and pH is applicable whether your grow is OMRI or if you're just in soil using synthetic fertilizers . . .

I don't pH runoff of a mix I know is dialed, but I fail to see how forgetting about something could be construed as beneficial to the overall. What if the mix had issues, issues you could have resolved by checking . . . .

Oh and my pH checking gear, all of it, came to less than $15 . . .

 

[guest2012y]

I think it comes down to the guy who gets so wacked out and frustrated over ph runoff readings without giving the mix time to balance out and actually show the results via plant growth. The beginner tends to expect results as soon as they dip the meter in runoff. "Why is it still 5.6? huh....I'd better put some ph up in a gallon of water and bring my runoff up." They don't understand the way it really works until they research WHY it works only after they leave the meter alone long enough an quit trying to "fix" it before it has a chance to work. Most beginners tend to hover over the plant adding this and that hoping this and that will suddenly cure it ...like in a cartoon. Patience eludes them...or simply not using the recommend proportions of the amendments in the mix...whatever the mix is.

 

[redneck shogun]

I don't pH runoff of a mix I know is dialed, but I fail to see how forgetting about something could be construed as beneficial to the overall. What if the mix had issues, issues you could have resolved by checking . . . .

Oh and my pH checking gear, all of it, came to less than $15 . . .

I think my first instinct would be to fix my soil, not PH my water. I haven't "dialed in" since I ran hydro and I don't care to go back.

 

[etinarcadiaego]

I think my first instinct would be to fix my soil, not PH my water. I haven't "dialed in" since I ran hydro and I don't care to go back.

No man, the issues in the mix I'm referring to would be pH related, like fluctuation or acidic drift over time. How would know those issues existed if you didn't check? They would all manifest as deficienies, perhaps you misunderstood my meaning.

I'm not pH-ing the water, I'm pH-ing the runoff after feeding with a nutrient solution, doing so is what allows me to know IF the soil mix needs adjustment, not the other way around.

By dialed-in I only mean a mix that you've ran before without issue.

 

[mad librettist]

B1 - What were your results? To Ph or Not To Ph?......SC

The results are that he did the experiment and everything else he says to do, but the debate still isn't over. So does he need to even say?

doh!

 

[VerdantGreen]

This whole debate could be settled in a matter of months if a few would stop writing a bunch of theory on cannabis forums and do a side by side grow. Either get up off your lazy ass and do a comparison grow or STFU. I've done it already. Several times.
You MUST use clones so you are dealing with identical plants.
You MUST use an organic soil mix full of humates and living bacteria or just forget the whole thing. I suggest LC's Mix for every plant all from the exact same batch.
You also MUST use the exact same recipe for food. Again, one of the beginners recipes would be fine. Just use the exact same recipe from the exact same batch at the exact same time.
I suggest trying at least four or more plants.
For half the plants in the test grow, worry, test, adjust and theorize over pH. On the other half, just use one of the recipes as directed. Forget pH exists for that half of the grow.
That is the ONLY way to settle this debate. I settled it this exact same way for myself years ago.
You can write and talk until you're blue in the face but until you use a test group you are just blowing smoke (literally).
Burn1

hi burn

as you say though, this would only answer the question for the person doing the testing with his/her own unique set of conditions. it wouldnt give a definitive answer to the question for everyone else because everyone's inputs are different - i.e. mainly the pH and alkalinity of their water supply.
also, as has been mentioned - there is a difference between getting away with something and having optimum conditions.

VG.

 

[grapeman]

i made an organic soil mix and the pH seems to run a little too high (over 7), for my soil mix still in the barrel what's the best thing to add to bring pH down into the mid 6 range?

A sulfer product. Sulfer will tend to lower ph in the soil. Sulfate of potash is good. Some guys use Sul-Po-Mag in their soil mix as that product is good but not very water soluble. For a soluble sulfer/potash product in flower use something like this or just get soil sulfer at lowes.

 

[Dignan]

hi burn

as you say though, this would only answer the question for the person doing the testing with his/her own unique set of conditions. it wouldnt give a definitive answer to the question for everyone else because everyone's inputs are different - i.e. mainly the pH and alkalinity of their water supply.
also, as has been mentioned - there is a difference between getting away with something and having optimum conditions.

VG.

See, it's funny that many people consider it irresponsible (for lack of a better word... that word is a tad melodramatic IMO) to make a blanket recommendation to "not worry about pH." It's funny because I think it's misleading to make a newbie think they must measure pH. With a solid soil mix, a known water source, and no crazy liquid nutrients, most people are never going to experience serious, lasting problems with pH, says my biased mind.

So I guess if I own up to my own bias, the bottom line is that any blanket statements/recommendations are perhaps a bit irresponsible?

Still I think the bigger moral of the story is that we all practice tolerance when we hear others making blanket recommendations. After all, neither recommendation in regard to pH is a make-or-break for a newbie.

My god, I can't believe I just typed all of that. This is my last pH post, I promise!

 

[guest2012y]

It seems it's all about the grower. Individuality over biology is what's going on.
Check out the various mixes we all use and how we each deal with them.
Almost like religion in the way that some believe this and some believe that.....
...then there's the overall truth about soil biology. Are you a "believer?" (I always hated that question)

 

[Dignan]

I'm not religious about my soil mix. I don't think I've ever used the same one twice. LOL I just use whatever I have around cheap, then apply my limited organics knowledge to building a good mix. Maybe I'm just lucky thus far?

Happy growing to all of you ICMaggers!

 

[VerdantGreen]

See, it's funny that many people consider it irresponsible (for lack of a better word... that word is a tad melodramatic IMO) to make a blanket recommendation to "not worry about pH." It's funny because I think it's misleading to make a newbie think they must measure pH. With a solid soil mix, a known water source, and no crazy liquid nutrients, most people are never going to experience serious, lasting problems with pH, says my biased mind.

So I guess if I own up to my own bias, the bottom line is that any blanket statements/recommendations are perhaps a bit irresponsible?

Still I think the bigger moral of the story is that we all practice tolerance when we hear others making blanket recommendations. After all, neither recommendation in regard to pH is a make-or-break for a newbie.

My god, I can't believe I just typed all of that. This is my last pH post, I promise!

hey dignan i agree with you, i wouldnt advise anyone to 'worry ' about pH and im sure many people will have good harvests without ever worrying about it- good for them!

but i've never understood the notion that throwing away your pH pen is some kind of rite of passage to being a good or proper organic gardener - it's a useful piece of equipment, as is a thermometer or hygrometer.
if you run into problems with your organic grow then one thing you should look at is your water - what is its pH? does it contain chloramine?

the other reason why i like to water with acidic water is that weed actually likes a pH of around 6.5 - and the dolomite lime in the soil mix will always be trying to raise the pH to 7. getting the pH around 6 in your water will allow it to slowly rise back to 7 and that 'sweep' will optimize nutrient uptake imo.

VG.

 

[mad librettist]

where does that 6.5 figure come from?

I thought weed preferred NO3 to NH4, and that nh4 only becomes no3 above 7.0

 

[xmobotx]

^^^when i have gotten above 7 my grows have done poorly

The results are that he did the experiment and everything else he says to do, but the debate still isn't over. So does he need to even say?

doh!

ha ha IOW, we all like to argue and "PH" is just so easy to type

 

[Cool Moe]

I'm new so still trying to be sure my soil mix has the correct ratios of additives for a pH balanced start. I think I overdid the sweeteners. For 10 gals soil mix I was adding 1 cup dolomite 1 cup oyster shells and I think I made it too sweet (middle, high 7's). I'll reduce to 1/2 cup dolomite 1/2 cup oyster shells per 10 soil gallon

 

[Dignan]

Hi, VG. Thanks for the thoughtful post. I really think you're probably a better grower than I.

but i've never understood the notion that throwing away your pH pen is some kind of rite of passage to being a good or proper organic gardener

Yea, me neither. I was happy to get rid of mine because the Hanna Checker is a POS and maintaining the thing only to get inaccurate readings pissed me off. heh But it wasn't a rite of passage that I take pride in. More like, "Whew! Finally done with that shit!"

if you run into problems with your organic grow then one thing you should look at is your water - what is its pH? does it contain chloramine?

See, I wouldn't because I already know my water source. Checking pH is a ways down on the list of things I would do to troubleshoot problems. But that's just been my personal experience.

I feel like the systems that regulate pH in organic soil are so beyond what I am able to understand, being a fairly uneducated dummy, that it's not the first thing I would dive into trying to decode. My pH going in or pH running off have never told me much because I lack the knowledge to interpret them.

Now, I'll toot my own horn here... I do consider myself a skilled grower, but I guess my skill comes in knowing how to select a fairly bombproof soil mix.

Maybe it's kinda like the difference between a golfer who is an ace under pressure and always pulls off a big shot after he's gotten himself into the rough, vs. the golfer who never gets himself into the rough. (Half kidding here, and I hate golf, but it's a good anology.)

Dig

 

[grapeman]

I'm new so still trying to be sure my soil mix has the correct ratios of additives for a pH balanced start. I think I overdid the sweeteners. For 10 gals soil mix I was adding 1 cup dolomite 1 cup oyster shells and I think I made it too sweet (middle, high 7's). I'll reduce to 1/2 cup dolomite 1/2 cup oyster shells per 10 soil gallon

Why not just follow the ratios at the "organics for beginners' thread?

 

[Dignan]

My god, I can't believe I just typed all of that. This is my last pH post, I promise!

LOL! ^^^ Man of my word, huh?