Why do people get irritated when you ask what strain they're selling

[Gypsy Nirvana]

If.... VanXant cannot conduct himself in a civil and respectful way then why should we entertain such a person?.....

It's really such a shame because he does have alot of good knowledge on the subject of cannabis to share, if he could just tone down the nastiness I am sure that we could all get along and he could show his worth to the community here by trying to teach those that are breeding and wish to breed/make seeds some better breeding practices.....

Sure I consider it important that those that wish to make seeds and market them thru myself or anyone else do so in a proper and accountable fashion and there is much to be learned.....

VanXant seems to be upset mainly by the fact that growers/breeders/seedmakers and vendors are making some coin out of marketing and selling their wares...(which he considers sub-standard and/or corrosive to the cannabis genepool) to others that grow or make seeds....

The 'Greed' VanXant speaks about is really the 'Need' to get good viable seeds into the hands of those that wish to grow.....If he wishes to know why I am and have been engaged in this business to help the world grow cannabis and not some other business which is probably more profitable such as selling mobile phones or real estate it is because I became a victim of a victimless crime concerning cannabis many years ago and find solace in growing growers and breeding breeders because of it......It's my way of making a difference and getting back on the very laws that incarcerated me in the first place..........What I ask is VanXant's way of making a difference?......

I am not in control of what various breeders do but if we could have a better breeding forum with someone like VanXant to coach them into how to create the next generations of cannabis in such a way that will help in the conservation of cannabis I can definitely see a positive side to this whole argument.....and will support it.....

Usually before I take on large seedlots from unknown breeders I will first have them tested by the members here to at least see that they grow out to description before vending them, on occasion I will release seedlots as 'freebies' for members to test themselves.......We have forums here where growers, breeders and seedmakers can show what they grow........and once we have some breeders/seedmakers interested in learning how to breed properly, I am sure many will follow.....

Keep in mind that I am not the only vendor of cannabis seeds in the world.......There are many others out there that would probably still buy and vend any seeds that anyone would make with what-ever methods......but it is possible that we could in time set some sort of standards that others then might follow....

All I can do is try to help to promote some better breeding practices here on www.icmag.com......and to do this we would need an expert in this field that would be willing to teach and lead those wanting to do this......in such a way that would not be insulting or inflammatory to those that might be interested.......or indeed myself who is attempting to bring this about.....

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Maybe we should accept VanXant as the closet executioner. He doesn't wish to participate accept to open the closet door and thrash where he deems appropriate. Why would we expect him to take the fun away by merely educating others in a more respectable way. Doesn't seem to be his nature.

My grandfather was like that. Instead of providing some instruction, he'd wait until you didn't do it like him. Then you'd get a tongue lashing. There was no such thing as learning w/o his wrath. That said, it might be physiologically impossible for VanXant to differentiate.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

He dug himself a hole right through to China... I hope they take to his messianic tone better than people that speak English.

I never saw the point he was making that everyone else seems to have seen. I'd understand if he was just pointing out that some people don't have a clue as to the consequences of their breeding attempts... but all I read involved speaking in generalities and basically arrogant demands or vague claims... there were never any exceptions to the totality.

Not that I will really miss the forum that never was, but I'm going to forever wonder exactly what methods he was referring to...

Then again if the magician babbles on and on about this mysterious rabbit he supposedly has in his hat for more than an hour without showing it to anyone, odds are the people will move on to find another show.

 

[Owl Mirror]

Hi Owl Mirror,

Regarding the seed bank project. I am unsure what you are suggesting but many of us maintain our own seed banks and in today's environment I think this is best. -Tom

This particular Seed Bank has been created to ensure survival of species precisely due to
"today's environment".

Imagine people from every continent, sending in ten pound bags filled with landrace strain seeds.
That would afford true conservancy of cannabis as well as generate beneficial publicity for this wonderful plant and it's diversity around the globe.

As for my closet grow, I obtained my Nepali landrace for $15, I obtained my Ethiopian for $20 and the Mazar landrace I was given as freebies on both orders.

I may not know much but, I was able to produce this cross shown below.

Mazar (afghanica) x Nepali (sativa) - both Hash plants, similar size and structure.
Both are said to finish flowering even after a snow storm.
I'm hopeful it will be beneficial to some of my fellow patients here in Michigan.
I believe it should finish in time at our latitude, even after first frost.

I may offer some to Gypsy as freebies, allowing others to see what pheno's they can find and develop.

Personally I think Gypsy has done a wonderful thing by making the seeds I obtained available, for the price I could afford. Maybe something good will come out of my fortunate acquisitions?

 

[DocLeaf]

This thread needs splitting ,, the content is now abstracted from the title. Perhaps the 'conservation' stuff can go in the breeders laboratory.

Btw , i strongly disagree with much of what has been said in this thread.. initially breeders are young people that experiment with male and female plants in their garden. Stipulating that people MUST conform to standards in breeding cannabis is based on habitus like a 'Field of Cultural Reproduction' [Bourdieu] it ultimately holds little cultural value,, rather aims to homogenize opinion and society (kindda like Nazism).

To add 'Breed Standards' are usually set by 'Breeders' working with a specific line of plants or animals... just like AKC/Crufts show in dogs and the NHS show in plants... then the rest of the society/club/association follows this standard set by the breeders in breeding.

Meanwhile dogs like to roam free and procreate with each other in the street,, and even a pedigree paper cant stop that from happening!

Hope this helps
peace n love

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

I think you should lay off GN, VanXant. If it wanst for him I would have no seeds. This web site is the source of 90% of my education since OG shut down. I love the community here, and it is very important to the goal of over growing the system and making pot legal. It will be much easier for you to accomplish your goal, Van, if it was in a legal regulated system.

Also your accuisations seem like trolling.... why? why would you troll on GN? chill out man.
Embrace GN's offer. Teach us all.

 

[DocLeaf]

Perhaps a real 'Breeder's Cup' needs organising,, whereby homogeneous entries ,, bred from consistent seedlines ,, by 'Breeders' are submitted... and then grown by the judges over a year period... documented and sampled at an event.

Just an idea..

 

[kopite]

I've never seen so many high profile members trolled this hard. Why is anyone taking vanxant seriously? Who is he? Someone from a rival site/breeding company? Just looked at some of his other posts, like recommending hemp for a med patient, and that says all I need to know.

So because some have lots of green squares they have more knowledge and experience ???

It seems to me very few actually understand what Vanxant is on about -

vanxant write a book or something, because you saying the same demonising crap over and over interwoven with your knowledge, helps no one, especially not cannabis, and just makes people tune off to whatever "good" points you have.

thats the one thing it would help, cannabis -

If.... VanXant cannot conduct himself in a civil and respectful way then why should we entertain such a person?.....

IMO I see others get away with much more....

Btw , i strongly disagree with much of what has been said in this thread.. initially breeders are young people that experiment with male and female plants in their garden. Stipulating that people MUST conform to standards in breeding cannabis is based on habitus like a 'Field of Cultural Reproduction' [Bourdieu] it ultimately holds little cultural value,, rather aims to homogenize opinion and society (kindda like Nazism).

exactly why they need educating - if they see all the seedbanks and bad practices then how will they know better ????

it amazes me the lack of so called breeders who participate in breeding discussions and have to ask why it is !!!

Kopite

 

[mean mr.mustard]

exactly why they need educating - if they see all the seedbanks and bad practices then how will they know better ????

it amazes me the lack of so called breeders who participate in breeding discussions and have to ask why it is !!!

So since VanXant is gone and you seem to be the only other one who knows what all of these "bad practices" are I'd like to ask you a few questions... who's practicing these "bad practices"? What is a breeder in your definition?
Who could qualify? How would you go about preserving cannabis genetics without making seeds?

And could you please rephrase or clarify that last part of your post please? It doesn't seem to make sense the way I'm reading it.

 

[kopite]

it amazes me the lack of so called breeders who participate in breeding discussions and have to ask why it is !!!

sorry should of read

it amazes me the lack of so called breeders who participate in breeding discussions and have to ask why that is

So since VanXant is gone and you seem to be the only other one who knows what all of these "bad practices" are I'd like to ask you a few questions... who's practicing these "bad practices"? What is a breeder in your definition?
Who could qualify? How would you go about preserving cannabis genetics without making seeds?

Who says he is gone.... and who (apart from you) says I'm the only one who knows

say you were given freebies of F2's say 15 seeds would you do an open pollination or pick a single female to be crossed ????

Can you find me a post where I have said don't make seeds ?

who's practicing these "bad practices"?

go search some threads it won't be that hard to find.... have a look at their understanging of techniques or lack there of....

What is a breeder in your definition?

A breeder or a breeders practices (breeding) the two differ

anyone by definition can be classed a breeder but does that mean they breed well ?

Kopite

 

[mean mr.mustard]

Well I'd have to answer your rephrased question with "Perhaps most people do rely on actual breeders with knowledge of practice to make their seeds."

I've seen people exhibit little to no knowledge of breeding and create seeds anyway. I don't believe those individuals degrade cannabis genetics as a whole.

As long as there are those who procreate with good practice there is no problem for the future.

The cannabis genepool is far from retardedly inbred so I fail to understand these "points" VanXant was trying to make. He is banned, not dead, but gone is gone if he can't answer my questions (which he never did).

You were the only one who acknowledged the "bad practices" and as such were my only source for an eye opening answer (which still hasn't happened).

To answer your other question I wouldn't breed with fifteen seeds alone... but if I had to choose one or the other, it'd be open pollination... especially with f2's.

 

[DocLeaf]

So because some have lots of green squares they have more knowledge and experience ???

Many ppl on here dont turn their karma-bar on.. (we only switched ours on recently).. likewise many of the best growers/breeders only visit here occasionally and have low post counts and little rep.

Never judge a book by its cover.

Peace! Peace! Peace!

 

[Blue]

I like your idea above Doc of growing out a strain over a year... so many cup winners are not what they are hyped up to be.........

 

[Tom Hill]

Hi again Owl Mirror,

When I said in todays environment, I meant the fact that 95%+ of the worlds growers are closet growers who can only look at a few plants at a time.

I think it's something like 2000 plants that are required to capture in the high 90's% all of the favorable combinations possible in a seed line each time it is bred. When I use only hundreds of plants, I am kissing goodbye forevermore many of those possible combinations, so it is wise for me to limit as much as possible the frequency of those types of reproductions.

I am using poor breeding practices, because of todays environment. We all are.

It's a vicious cycle that continues on, and is why we are all sitting around scratching our heads saying "damn, what happened to all that epic Thai from yesteryear?"

This is the gist of VanXant's argument on that point and he is correct on that point.


It is not for me to go around telling folks what to do, and I encourage folks interested in breeding to take it up. I agree with DocLeaf when he says that it all starts with experimentation in the garden. However, I do believe that the natural progression from that point should probably be seeking out knowledge on the subject if we truly care about cannabis, and not solely by way of the internet.

Guys like Kopite for example spend no small amount of time with their nose in the books, this is plain to see looking at some of his other posts in these forums. It is equally plain to see that there are many breeding who have never bothered to open a book, yet claim to care, sad. Cannabis needs more folks who care enough to seek out knowledge before they jump in the fire - so to speak. -Tom

 

[mean mr.mustard]

Years worth of work go into a strain. Lots of records and many individuals are necesary. I am just defending those that do it well... it's an awful lot of effort to spend simply to be called a hack. Many actions are better than none. I am not alone in supporting the future of cannabis. Do not be dissuaded by VanXant's claim... we are going to better places with this plant, like it or not, believe it or not.

 

[kopite]

Many ppl on here dont turn their karma-bar on.. (we only switched ours on recently).. likewise many of the best growers/breeders only visit here occasionally and have low post counts and little rep.

Never judge a book by its cover.

that was the point.... others go incognito and post good info still people miss it, ..... how the fuck did you get to be a mentor ??? and how can you comment on breeding you didn't even know you were making/made a polyhybred

To answer your other question I wouldn't breed with fifteen seeds alone... but if I had to choose one or the other, it'd be open pollination... especially with f2's.

good (although its really already fucked with the numbers)

You were the only one who acknowledged the "bad practices" and as such were my only source for an eye opening answer (which still hasn't happened).

nor will it now, as the banning of Vanxant has confirmed a few things for me..... guess he could of said what he liked if he sold seeds via SB etc....

@ Tom Hill

Thanks for your words but it seems sadly adios, I wish you well

Kopite

 

[Owl Mirror]

Hi again Owl Mirror,

When I said in today's environment, I meant the fact that 95%+ of the worlds growers are closet growers who can only look at a few plants at a time.

I think it's something like 2000 plants that are required to capture in the high 90's% all of the favorable combinations possible in a seed line each time it is bred. When I use only hundreds of plants, I am kissing goodbye forevermore many of those possible combinations, so it is wise for me to limit as much as possible the frequency of those types of reproductions.

I am using poor breeding practices, because of today's environment. We all are.

It's a vicious cycle that continues on, and is why we are all sitting around scratching our heads saying "damn, what happened to all that epic Thai from yesteryear?"

This is the gist of VanXant's argument on that point and he is correct on that point.

It is not for me to go around telling folks what to do, and I encourage folks interested in breeding to take it up. I agree with DocLeaf when he says that it all starts with experimentation in the garden. However, I do believe that the natural progression from that point should be seeking out knowledge on the subject if we truly care about cannabis, and not solely by way of the Internet.

Guys like Kopite for example spend no small amount of time with their nose in the books, this is plain to see looking at some of his other posts in these forums. We need more folks who care enough to do that before they jump in the fire so to speak. -Tom

I can understand the reasoning behind a large open-pollination scheme.
I suppose my first question regarding VanXant's argument is, does He practice what he preaches?

Not everybody is able to grow out a field of "something like 2000 plants".
If so, are his seeds made available to the general public?
I'm certain many would welcome an opportunity to grow out true-breeding strains such as he might be creating through the methods he promotes.

As I've said, I'm a guy with a closet who took a few females and a few males, made seeds of the cross and am hopeful to find some gems in the progeny.

I still believe if the community could gather 2000 seeds from each landrace strain that currently exists in the wild, we would be saving the diversity for future generations.

There are a few Millennium Seed Banks on the planet, the one I posted as well as other efforts around the globe. I wonder why those in this community are not willing to participate in such an endeavor ?

The Norwegian government will hollow out a cave on the ice-bound island of Spitsbergen to hold the seed bank.

It will be designed to withstand global catastrophes like nuclear war or natural disasters that would destroy the planet's sources of food.

Seed collection is being organised by the Global Crop Diversity Trust.
"What will go into the cave is a copy of all the material that is currently in collections [spread] all around the world," Geoff Hawtin of the Trust told the BBC's Today programme.

Saving Seeds for the Future - the Seed Bank at Berry Botanic Garden
Nature's gift of seed dormancy makes it possible to maintain genetically representative samples of endangered plant populations in 'suspended animation' for long periods. Storing seeds is a relatively inexpensive conservation measure, and takes so little space that millions of seeds can be stored in a small freezer. Anyone can set up a seed bank, even at home.

This seeming simplicity, however, masks some important concerns and scientific questions. The science behind seed banking is still emerging, not always with complete agreement amongst experts. Also, saving seeds has its hidden dangers. Storing seed can create a false sense of security, leading some people to conclude that they have "saved" a species. Finally, the stored seed sample may turn out to be woefully inadequate for the intended purpose.

Despite these and other cautions, we believe that seed banking, done correctly, has a central role in plant conservation. However, it should never be the only action taken to conserve a plant species. Rather, seed banking is one component of the comprehensive approach of integrated conservation strategies, which are rooted in conserving habitat but use all available means to conserve a species. Seed banks are also good sources of plant material for research, when taking seeds from the wild is difficult or undesirable.

The Svalbard Global Seed Vault Atop the World

Should catastrophe strike the rest of the globe, a repository of plant varieties should be safe, tucked away in remote, frozen Svalbard.
High above the icy fjord, the vault is almost complete. Inside a frozen mountain not far from the North Pole, workers are building three concrete chambers to withstand global warming, floods and fires, wars and nuclear holocaust.

This Arctic safe, nicknamed the "doomsday vault," will protect millions of crop seeds here on the forbidding Svalbard archipelago, the northernmost inhabited spot on the planet. The survival of Earth's agriculture is being entrusted to a land inhospitable to life, where only the toughest plants, animals and humans endure.

Something tells me these seed banks won't except the latest tooty-fruity flavor of the month marijuana but, would except collected, wild landrace strains from around the globe. Is this community willing to participate on a Global scale to preserve this plant from "global warming, floods and fires, wars and nuclear holocaust" ?

It's time to walk the walk, let's organize this effort through this web community and our contacts around the globe.

 

[Tom Hill]

VanXant does practice what he preaches. That is, he understands that by only being able to grow out hundreds of plants each generation he is limiting future possible combinations. So he limits the frequency of this event as much as possible by utilizing proper seed storage techniques.

He does not make his seed available to the general public because he knows they will get swallowed-up, assimilated like the borg into the gene pool by folks who do not understand the importance of keeping lines separated and properly maintained. When everything else out there finishes this current cycle, and much cannabis tastes/looks/smokes the same, we will be glad that folks like VanXant are doing exactly what they are doing. -Tom

 

[TrichyTrichy]

I hope VX returns so much to learn from him. Check & Balance system in effect.

 

[Owl Mirror]

VanXant does practice what he preaches. That is, he understands that by only being able to grow out hundreds of plants each generation he is limiting future possible combinations. So he limits the frequency of this act as much as possible by utilizing proper seed storage techniques.

He does not make his seed available to the general public because he knows they will get swallowed-up, assimilated like the borg into the gene pool by folks who do not understand the importance of keeping lines separated and properly maintained. When everything else out there finishes this current cycle, and much cannabis tastes/looks/smokes the same, we will be glad that folks like VanXant are doing exactly what they are doing. -Tom

Well I am glad to hear that yet, how is this verified if his work is not peer reviewed ?
A couple of more points I would like to have answered is: If VanXant is open pollinating 2000 plants, I assume that is outdoors. If true, does this fact limit him to one particular strain only? How does he prevent drift from the closet grower down the lane growing the latest fruity-tootie flavor of the month ?
How would he insure against cross pollination?
If he is limited to only one strain, how efficient is that towards conservation efforts?

I would love to see a Breeders club formed were each participant is committed to growing a particular strain according to region or, long/lat.

I think spreading these gene pools around to dedicated conservators would best preserve these strains from being corrupted.

I would like to ask you, how do you view the triangle of long/lat landrace strains I chose to work with?
I intend to make F1, F2 etc... as well as combine these three strains in an attempt at producing a vigorous hybrid.

While it may never have naturally occurred, I feel the seeds from the Mazar district could enhance those from the Nepal district due to their relative geographical relationship and growing environments.

While I can agree with the views of VanXant, unfortunately I do not believe this practice is feasible.

Here is one more question:
If VanXant is attempting to grow a particular strain, if not grown in the geographical location it originates from, would the climatic influence alter the whole process of natural selection?