Fertilizer and Yield

[JITAMON]

Mostly organic, and a little chem?

Mostly organic, and a little chem?

Aloha Taking what has been said in this thread into consideration, if you wanted to give your plants that extra boost with some chems, what is a good ratio to start with this time of year? Reason I ask this is cause I got a whole bunch of Cutting Edge Solutions nutes and I am caretaking plants that the patient wants to use the C.E.S. I also want to know how it will affect the micro herd in my organic soil? I plan on using the nutes till I run out then budding with Organics. Anyone see a problem with this?

 

[Guest]

Im not familiar with CES nutes JITAMON. Generally, i use a high nitro mix until a week or 2 into flower and then switch to a bloom fert.

Hey fisher and BC. Fella's, are you honestly telling me that organic nutes of any nature are going to provide thecapacity for targeted rapid growth that a water soluble chem can? I'm spellbound by that contention and want to suggest that it runs contrary to commonly held farming philosophies.


Do you disagree with the contention that organic nutes, regaurdless of their nature, must break down to some extent before it's available to the plant, where the MG and others can be taken in within hours?

Then there's the problem with moisture and rainfall. The behavior of nutes in relation to moisture/rainfall is variable isnt it?. It would seem that a weekly/weakly regimen of compost tea without the accompanying rainfall would build up decaying nutes and then when the rain comes they get ovedosed? Whereas water solubles last really no more than a week with any degree of rainfall.

Water soluble nutes allow the farmer to address all problems immediately without having to wait and wonder if the juice youve poured on her is going to elicit a growth reaction. In other words, by the time one discovers that the nutes arent having the desired effect, a week or 2 has passes and the foot of growth and 3ozs of smoke that soluable nute enhancement will bring are gone as well.

If there was a tea that I could see the response in 48 hrs i would use it, but im unaware of such a product.

 

[THC123]

But you see sylverback, thats the difference with organics , you make sure everything is in place so afterwards you don't have to add this and that.

So yes it has the same capacity as chemical provided you do it the right way(prepare it properly)

I haven't fed my plants nothig and they grow like hell , everything is in the soil , in fact feeding them would burn them cuz they got everrything they need. Much more balanced

 

[Guest]

hmmm... thats interesting THC. I have suspected that organic growers build their beliefs about the effectiveness of organic nutrients on the premise that the soil can be modified/developed in advance of the grow to the extent that it will be optimum for the entire life of the plant. I appreciate you stating that so directly- i think you may be the first to come right out and say so.

Thats where our belief about cannabis growth differs. My contention is that cannabis requires different nute levels at different times if youre trying to maximize growth and while organics are excellent at providing a consitently balanced and nutritious base for growth, growth is still limited to the soils capacity to provide the maximum amount nutrient levels at any given time.

Seedling and small plants need higher levels of phosphates to stimulate root system development that is essential to plant health and for guerilla's, anchoring. I found a 3-15-3 is optimum for me to build a maximized root system for my max yeild plant.

Ive found for early veg, between mid may and the end of june, a balance fert 10-10-10 provides better growth than other mixes

The nitrogen levels required to maximize growth for a large, vigorous cannabis plant that is adding 6" a day to its heigth during the rapid preflower growth period and is nearing 3 meters are considerable if youre pushing her to be the fattest hog at the fair.

...and i am. I dont push for the plant to be healthy and produce a good yeild. I push for the plant to achieve its maximum capacity of growth and yield. The work is hard and risky and i'm hopin to make the most of it.

 

[fisher15]

I think it's crucial to incorporate foliar feeding into your regimin. That is where you'll see the fastest response and highest capicity for targeted rapid growth. I see visible results in 24-48 hrs, sometimes sooner.

Teas, without the addition of major nutrients, are more commonly used to manage soil food web microbiology, boosting populations of beneficial microbes. They are also very effective when used as a foliar. You cannot overapply.

I don't really understand your paragraph on rainfall and nutes. It doesn't rain here much during the grow season so I have to supply almost all the water. If you feed via soil soak immediately before a three day downpour, I can see your nutes getting washed away.

 

[THC123]

Yes indeed the plants needs differ vastly

Thats why i have different soil mixtures. for the different needs. Weak , medium strong vegging mix and then the flowering mix which is totally different.

Now i must say i normally pregrow my plants in large(50 liter) containers and transplant them half juli to a big hole with flowering mix.

So this year is the first year without transplant. I just made a 500 liter hole and made different layers.

It seems to go as planned , the months before the plant was much lighter in colour which would correspond to the lighter mixes and since last week she is beginning to become darker which would correspond to the flowering mix.

Anywho we will see , this year i am also going for as big as possible , wish you the best of luck(though you won't need it )

Hey silverback , don't you have an outdoor topic??

 

[Ulysses]

Good post, Silverback.

I moved away from Miracle Grow years ago. However, I firmly agree with you on the points of pre-flowering Nitrogen loading and the increased need for nutes outdoors...

Outdoors, you want the stretch! No ceiling! Hopefully, you have a strain that won't grow all stem. Node maximization is what you want! Larger plants need a larger dose of nutes plain and simple. Few nutrient mixes give directions on how to grow a 10' plant...

Who can tell me what Organic nutrient is highest in water soluble Nitrogen??? I have Alaskan Fish Emulsion 5-1-1 which is 3.75% soluble...

 

[fisher15]

Age Old Grow 12-6-6 has 9% water soluable N

 

[nomaad]

Who can tell me what Organic nutrient is highest in water soluble Nitrogen???

pee.

 

[antimatter]

I thought we already concluded that organics have the capacity to yield more or just as much?? I grow with chemicals but I like the results that a nice mix of organic soil gives, its easy but involves a lot of heavy ingredients and mixing soil is time consuming hence why I don't use it.

Do you guys mix your soil with a cement mixture and get it all mixed up nice and good ? because that is what Ive in the past and it takes forever, maybe if I could just top feed all the ingredients id be more inclined to, brewing tea just isn't my thing (no poop or pee). Also handling bone and blood meal scares the shit out of me even with a mask on because I know im still breathing that shit in.. whats more important my health or the plants?

 

[hamstring]

My 2 cents

I don’t attack this as what works better chemical or organics but what’s more guerrilla. I don’t grow my plants in my back yard and spots change each and every year. Not saying I don’t try and use the same spot twice just the nature of guerrilla growing. I can’t haul hundreds of pound of amendments out to the bush. I also don’t have the luxury of being able to build the perfect hole by amending it every year.

It seams like we may be missing some of the picture here in my opinion anyways. This is the outdoor forum and although I am sure there are guerillas that use strictly organics (I believe Fast Pine does) many of us don’t have the opportunity to do so. The discussion should take into account these factors.

We would all love the perfect spot and the perfect soil, perfect strain, perfect yield but that’s not an outdoor reality. That’s why you don’t see a ton of discussion on tweaking in the grow like you do in the indoor forum. Those guys are fanatics at looking at the little things because they have the right environment to do so.

We are guerillas and we are moving fast and often and staying low. Things like time release and water-soluble ferts are the best choices for this type of growing in my mind. Would I love to be secure enough to haul in organics I would because I think it may be a more natural way to go but I cant lug in all that at 100 holes or more through 2 miles of bush.
PEACE

 

[buddah]

mhhh all my veg feeding were organic.....the next day i will buy my feeds for the flowering time and i am not sure i i will goning on organic......after reading the thread!!!

will visit my spots every week or two....my plan was to use some liquid feeds boost and Pk13/14 and some guano Pellets.......
should i buy not organic liquid feedings????
Love the organic stuff...and its hard to overfeed them outside!!
But may be the field is lower and i wanna big fielder for sure


Hamstring: what kind of feeding do u use???

 

[nomaad]

buddah: organic doesn't always mean bat guano and worm castings. There are nutes out there that are OMRI listed (I beleieve this means real deal euro organic, yes?) but are developed as product systems (base bloom and grow, catalysts, additive, enhancers, etc) with detailed schedules as to how to feed.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that product lines like Aurora Innovations Roots Organics are coming into the market precisely to fill the need for a feeding system that is both organic AND more rapidly available to your plants like chems.

I guess its going to be Euros only on the forums today. All the yanks are out waving flags. Not me... until we're ready to celebrate the American Revolution with the American Revolution v. 2.0, I'm not interested. I mean... I just got back here from five blissful years abroad. Not quite ready for the whole gringo pride thing.

 

[fisher15]

I'm here. Just been out playing with dirt

Hamstring, as it's been said over and over in this thread, and nomaad just reiterated, it is not necessary to use dry organic nutrients to grow an organic crop. Aurora (roots) and many other companies produce liquid organic nutes. Also, you'd have to define 'perfect', but I think some are coming damn close to it outdoors.

Nomaad OMRI is real deal west coast, USA Organic! Heh, think they're outta Oregon...

 

[BurmeseDragon]

SALTS! Lot's of organic as is the old time saying organic, was a lot of empty substances. Today, organic nutrients have a lot of salts and are very processed. Their the same chemicals that are chemi nutrients, just not crystallized and isolated. Ammonium nitrate, is found in a lot of animal wastes. Cow poo, chicken crap and pig shit, they all have different levels of additives for the field. Today, people mix so many organic ferts together that these can grow larger than Chemi's and these are chemi's just not crystals.

Good to hear that Sativa's perspire N and that grows the mold, I'd guess that if the N or any nut is metabolized it won't seep through pores. Like a fat boy, stinking like dinner sweating out of his body.

I will grow in a Chemically grown field, with 'organic' nutrients any day the field is cultivatable. Strait NPK salt crystals with macro salts, these can grow huge empty buds. Organic is today about a full life system and you can use salts from crystals, strait out of the lab. But I find that the fields are full of this, so I add what is not present.

It's about trichromes, nice full healthy, not massacred resin glands. Quality over quantity, I want living buds. Outdoors, there are a lot of micros missing, some macros that are competed for and usually N and P in my area is short other than in the fields that are chemi.

Which reminds me, to check what chemi's farmers buy and get from the Government. Probably fairly full spectrum chemicals, surely shy on things that MJ loves and organic can't hurt if it is a full heavy line.

 

[JOE CHRONIC]

I personally like to use Organic fertilizers, but back in the day I used to use a veg fert called "Peters 20-20-20" that would make the girls flat out reach for the sky in veg.

Anyone still using Peters 20-20-20 for veg ?

 

[argyle scud]

OMRI- organic materials review institute. Just a list of certified/approved products that are approved for organic use. I find that some of the poultry manures are some of the nicest ferts I have used. The manure from the egg laying chickens, instead of the slaughter/eating chickens, is supreme.
peace,
as

 

[hamstring]

Fisher and buddah(And all others participating in another great thread by Silver Back)

Hey guys, I will not pretend to be an expert on organics or ferts in general. I use MG and I can take enough in 3 sleeves of the stuff, which are basically 8inchs long by 2inchs in diameter to feed roughly 50 small plants.

That’s NPK (20-20-20) 4-5 measured scoops per 5 gal of water. I have no idea but can I get organics that I can pack in the bush that take up the same space in my backpack as the 3 MG pouches if that exists I am willing to try organics?

I have limited space in my pack and I like to travel light and fast when in the bush but I make no bones that I believe that organics would be a better way to go but I just cant do it if I am going to be lugging in 1 gal containers that will feed maybe 20 plants.

Can you guys give me an idea of what you would have to carry in to feed 50 plants in one trip in the bush?

 

[neongreen]

hmmm... thats interesting THC. I have suspected that organic growers build their beliefs about the effectiveness of organic nutrients on the premise that the soil can be modified/developed in advance of the grow to the extent that it will be optimum for the entire life of the plant. I appreciate you stating that so directly- i think you may be the first to come right out and say so.

Thats where our belief about cannabis growth differs. My contention is that cannabis requires different nute levels at different times if youre trying to maximize growth and while organics are excellent at providing a consitently balanced and nutritious base for growth, growth is still limited to the soils capacity to provide the maximum amount nutrient levels at any given time.

Hey SB

Our understanding of how plants/organics works is increasing all the time. As I understand it, in a healthy soil, plants take what they need, when they need it. Microbes facilitate this, by making the nutrients available, otherwise they are effectively locked up in the soil.

However, if you feed the soil chems, the plants have no choice but to rely on you to give them their food, since chems destroy the micro herd.

Here's something about the age old misconception that excess nitrogen causes harsh smoke.

To get things rolling, let me fill you all in on a little factoid I gleaned from Robert C. Clarke's wisdom, and later found to be absolutely true. Nitrogen is not the big bad contributor to harsh smoke many of you think it is. You can get away with a decent amount of nitrogen still active in a green plant at harvest using True Living Organics (TLO) or all-natural growing. Yup, I said it, and it won't make the smoke harsh at all as long as the N is being supplied by the microlife for the most part and not being force-fed into the roots directly with chelating agents like organic acids. Magnesium (Mg) is your huge culprit here regarding harsh smoke mi amigos; don't forget that one. And for those of you who like to use things like Epsom salts (very high in available Mg), this is critical info.

Read the rest here: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=120376

 

[THC123]

Let me tell you what really causes a harsh smoke , even after 3 weeks no nutes and a 3 to 1 flush ---> canna's PK13/14 gives your buds that extra swell but man does it fuck up the taste.

I stopped using it after a few times , still have the damn bottle here

Don't know bout other pk boosters but that one

That’s NPK (20-20-20) 4-5 measured scoops per 5 gal of water. I have no idea but can I get organics that I can pack in the bush that take up the same space in my backpack as the 3 MG pouches if that exists I am willing to try organics?

, i make a portion per plant and wrap it up in plastic foil , doesn't take much space , don't know bout the pouches of mg and how much space they take but a small hand of organics is enough