Hydrogen peroxide used on a all organic grow??
- Thread starter moonymonkey
- Start date
Blowstrees
Member
Canna,
This answer was like asking a direct question to the govt about WMD's lol...just joshin man...but the only thing you did here was reiterate what you stated before...assuring me " hey dude, trust me...ive seen the test results...its wild shit" when you yourself advise against blindly following?
I understand the circle of life well. So can you offer any actual scientific facts besides saying that oxygen is one of the most important factors in the deal? What "outside" influences do you speak of? What else did you do differently from your neighbor that could impact your soil differently? Also this thread is refering to soil container gardening...
bottom line...h2o2 does the opposite of your goal in organic methods. Its like going running everyday because you want to be healthy but lighting up a cigg for the journey.
The average soil container gardener also doesnt have an ORP meter either...and you advice people not to use it unless they have one because it can be "dangerous"...i see more people reading this thread...going to the store and buying a little brown bottle of h2o2 and dosing up the plants with it...then coming back and saying organic gardening sucks lol...
So please Canna...be the suppository that frees me from being full of shit....give me a shred of evidence so I would be willing to further test your theories...
G
guest123
Hey Maryjohn,
Try drinking a gallon of bat guano sludge and get back to me. The fact is that every single ingredient in your organic grow is potentially damaging.
Blowtrees,
I thought I already freed you from being full of shit but I guess not because you are still making statements of bottom lines etc that are just total BS. I have pointed to the tools necessary, target application rates, results of my own experiments and lab results that flatly prove wrong this thought of you guys that all use of H2O2 is counter to goals. I don't know how I can be any more clear, exact numbers are of no importance. I use the stuff, my neighbor doesn't, we both grow in giant containers. My soil tested for more than 3 times the amount of beneficial nematodes than his. So, while the average person reading this thread may believe your rhetoric, your crap don't fly with me because I know better. I have actually done the testing, seen the results from both the field and the lab, and because of this know for a fact that you are pulling your comments out of thin air. I know how this goes though, you will continue to spew lies on the subject without any clue, and I have better things to do than push rocks up hippie hill all day so I bid you farewell, good luck, and ask that you guys try to keep the BS to a minimum.
Try drinking a gallon of bat guano sludge and get back to me. The fact is that every single ingredient in your organic grow is potentially damaging.
Blowtrees,
I thought I already freed you from being full of shit but I guess not because you are still making statements of bottom lines etc that are just total BS. I have pointed to the tools necessary, target application rates, results of my own experiments and lab results that flatly prove wrong this thought of you guys that all use of H2O2 is counter to goals. I don't know how I can be any more clear, exact numbers are of no importance. I use the stuff, my neighbor doesn't, we both grow in giant containers. My soil tested for more than 3 times the amount of beneficial nematodes than his. So, while the average person reading this thread may believe your rhetoric, your crap don't fly with me because I know better. I have actually done the testing, seen the results from both the field and the lab, and because of this know for a fact that you are pulling your comments out of thin air. I know how this goes though, you will continue to spew lies on the subject without any clue, and I have better things to do than push rocks up hippie hill all day so I bid you farewell, good luck, and ask that you guys try to keep the BS to a minimum.
Blowstrees
Member
AHHHH yes....the famous " if my answer isnt good enough for you then go fuck yourself" motion eh?
:thumbsup: Enjoy your day as well Canna.
:thumbsup: Enjoy your day as well Canna.
Please, after reading this post, and the lack of data as well as the reference to only beneficial nematodes without defining which beneficial nematodes (eg. predatory, bacterial feeders, etc.) as well as no inclusion of data concerning other microbe group populations (bacteria/archaea, flagellates, amoebae) my advice is to disregard the posts by this individual.
I am not saying that there is absolutely no merit to the use of peroxide applied to soil, just that I have not sufficiently explored this in all potential proportions. I do use 35% peroxide regularly for killing microbes and can say that I would not consider adding it to CT, except for experimental reasons. I have no trouble reaching levels of 7 PPM to 10 PPM in my teas using an air pump.
I do like the analogy of going for a run then smoking a cigarrette.
Hello all,
Micrboman, you have the means to take soil samples... prepare slides and have the equipment necessary to do the a proper analysis?
I mean really, can you do this?
You see, a rather simple experiment can be devised to gather some factual data rather then relay on data from other experiments. Specifically the data on soil remediation as that speaks to the soil microbes.
Hypothesis: (we will choose yours as it is you that is running the experiment...it seems fitting that the experiement should be designed around your thoery)
The use Hydrogen Pereoxide (HP) will have a negetive impact to soil microbiology in container plants when used every fertigation.
You will need a control group.
I suggest two concentration groups...say 10cc/L of 3% H2O2 and 20cc/L h2o2 of fert solution(or water).
A baseline colony count needs to be established.
Since we fertigate usually on a regular bases, I would like to suggest that a focus be on the time interval of say 4 days...this is about how often I water myself.
Now, multi-speicies bacteria have varying growth rates right? (look at ewc tea....what was it I recall.....10 to the eight cells/l??? in a matter of 24-48 hours...many variables here).
So, once a baseline is established (once the establish yourself. they got to except ya...but I digress), prepare the solutions to given the plants. I add my HP to the solution seconds before I pour it in.
Now, lets give the HP some time to work say an hour...take soil samples and prepare slides...you must be quick because delay changes the results.
Try again at say 6 hours and then at 18,24,say 36, 48 and 72.
the results can then be analyzed for a trend.
Of course to have any statistical meaning, you would need multiple data points. Otherwise Microbeman, its all speculation and conjecture.
Since I do not have the equipment or the means necessary to perform such an experiment, I must use data from simillar studies on soil remediation. Soil remediation relies, in some degree on soil microbiology so you may have to extrapolate the data.
Also, while I amn reading on the subject...h2o2 in soil follows a Fenton reaction (over my head on how it works) which minerilizes organic compounds.
I found this to be a rather interesting clip.
Note the graph and how it shows the population decline...don't get too excited boys...this immediaitely after application
http://books.google.com/books?id=T2...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#PPA232,M1
TRhis is of interest though it is a corporation report. But you can extrapolate the information though it is not h2o2 but rather air and the results obtained.
http://www.ldd.go.th/18wcss/techprogram/P15106.HTM
Heres another interesting read though it does not speak to the bacteria specifically. Though you cant argue the results.
Here my favorrite for the night:
http://www.growingproduce.com/americanvegetablegrower/?storyid=471&style=1
"Trials conducted this past summer at California State University-Fresno on organically grown bell peppers show that injecting air into plant root zones via subsurface drip lines has a positive effect on both fruit sizes and overall yields."
Of course you can't trust them veggie growers...
These are air-injections using subsurface drip irrigation. The point is that DO (disolved oxygen) levels were increased in the rhizosphere. If there is mortality using air-injection with the yields they tout I will go with the yields and the other benefits of increased DO levels.
How one increases the DO levels either mechanical or with h2o2.
Anyway, I am getting a headache from all of this.
For those think is all a buch of bullpussy then so be it. The information is there.
Obstanance is self-serving.
And again, this is presented as an enhancement technique, not to fix a non-existant problem.
Oh and this one from a guy named Jorge Cervantas...I hear he grows weed too but hey anybody throws a seed in the ground and they are big time pot experts all of a sudden.
".....Farmers in the US use peroxide for everything from disinfection of the dairy barn and hog pens to increasing crop yields by 20 to 30%....."
http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/1378.html
minds_I
Micrboman, you have the means to take soil samples... prepare slides and have the equipment necessary to do the a proper analysis?
I mean really, can you do this?
You see, a rather simple experiment can be devised to gather some factual data rather then relay on data from other experiments. Specifically the data on soil remediation as that speaks to the soil microbes.
Hypothesis: (we will choose yours as it is you that is running the experiment...it seems fitting that the experiement should be designed around your thoery)
The use Hydrogen Pereoxide (HP) will have a negetive impact to soil microbiology in container plants when used every fertigation.
You will need a control group.
I suggest two concentration groups...say 10cc/L of 3% H2O2 and 20cc/L h2o2 of fert solution(or water).
A baseline colony count needs to be established.
Since we fertigate usually on a regular bases, I would like to suggest that a focus be on the time interval of say 4 days...this is about how often I water myself.
Now, multi-speicies bacteria have varying growth rates right? (look at ewc tea....what was it I recall.....10 to the eight cells/l??? in a matter of 24-48 hours...many variables here).
So, once a baseline is established (once the establish yourself. they got to except ya...but I digress), prepare the solutions to given the plants. I add my HP to the solution seconds before I pour it in.
Now, lets give the HP some time to work say an hour...take soil samples and prepare slides...you must be quick because delay changes the results.
Try again at say 6 hours and then at 18,24,say 36, 48 and 72.
the results can then be analyzed for a trend.
Of course to have any statistical meaning, you would need multiple data points. Otherwise Microbeman, its all speculation and conjecture.
Since I do not have the equipment or the means necessary to perform such an experiment, I must use data from simillar studies on soil remediation. Soil remediation relies, in some degree on soil microbiology so you may have to extrapolate the data.
Also, while I amn reading on the subject...h2o2 in soil follows a Fenton reaction (over my head on how it works) which minerilizes organic compounds.
I found this to be a rather interesting clip.
Note the graph and how it shows the population decline...don't get too excited boys...this immediaitely after application
http://books.google.com/books?id=T2...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#PPA232,M1
TRhis is of interest though it is a corporation report. But you can extrapolate the information though it is not h2o2 but rather air and the results obtained.
http://www.ldd.go.th/18wcss/techprogram/P15106.HTM
Heres another interesting read though it does not speak to the bacteria specifically. Though you cant argue the results.
Here my favorrite for the night:
http://www.growingproduce.com/americanvegetablegrower/?storyid=471&style=1
"Trials conducted this past summer at California State University-Fresno on organically grown bell peppers show that injecting air into plant root zones via subsurface drip lines has a positive effect on both fruit sizes and overall yields."
Of course you can't trust them veggie growers...
These are air-injections using subsurface drip irrigation. The point is that DO (disolved oxygen) levels were increased in the rhizosphere. If there is mortality using air-injection with the yields they tout I will go with the yields and the other benefits of increased DO levels.
How one increases the DO levels either mechanical or with h2o2.
Anyway, I am getting a headache from all of this.
For those think is all a buch of bullpussy then so be it. The information is there.
Obstanance is self-serving.
And again, this is presented as an enhancement technique, not to fix a non-existant problem.
Oh and this one from a guy named Jorge Cervantas...I hear he grows weed too but hey anybody throws a seed in the ground and they are big time pot experts all of a sudden.
".....Farmers in the US use peroxide for everything from disinfection of the dairy barn and hog pens to increasing crop yields by 20 to 30%....."
http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/1378.html
minds_I
"the difference between medicine and poison, is dose"
Minds I, Please refer to my webpage to see my common method of running tests www.microbeorganics.com . Colonies are bogus. Direct live microscopy is where its at. I would simply film what occurrs when a drop of diluted h2o2 is injected into a functioning microbial consortia in liquid and in slurry. Of course repeated. Unfortunately I'm under the gun to accomplish very much in a short period these days and cannot do it for some time.
Blowstrees
Member
Microbe that would be awesome man!
Please do try to update when you find yourself in the position to do the film. Would be able to end the long debate...for one way or the other....but i have a feeling i know the results already.
Not always true. And not a good reason to use agro chems.
It's always true, friend. And, H2O2 is not an agro chem.
Look, it is just as simple as this...H2o2 has it's place in horticulture. It is very versatile and performs several functions, and performs them well. Including in the so called "organic" grow.
When folks start calling bullshit, and doing little more than parroting what they have seen on the net before, while having zero experience or real knowledge of the subject matter, I loose interest real fast.
Look, it is just as simple as this...H2o2 has it's place in horticulture. It is very versatile and performs several functions, and performs them well. Including in the so called "organic" grow.
When folks start calling bullshit, and doing little more than parroting what they have seen on the net before, while having zero experience or real knowledge of the subject matter, I loose interest real fast.
Good day everyone
I will give my two cents on the issue with the spirit of the above quoted post by minds-I.
The way I have been using H2O2 has been manifold, from seed germination up to desinfectation of maturing buds.
Why do I think using H2O2 is organic? because of the residues/left-overs after its use all dissolve back into nature without any problems, provided that the ammounts we are speaking of are not hugely ridiculous of course.
The solution of H2O2 I use comes from the lab at 3% g/v 10 v
this is the standard H2O2 used as an antiseptic for external use that can be found at a regular pharmacy/grocery story.
For seed germination: to one cup of water with neutral pH, 1ml of H2O2 is added, then seeds are dropped in the cup of the resulting solution until they sprout/open, then transplant medium.
To combat molds/fungus and several insects on vegging and flowering plants, a solution of 3 parts neutral pH water to 1 part H2O2 is atomized/sprayed over the plants, under the leaves, throughout stems, and even over the top soil of potted plants in organic soil medium. This is only done if needed, never as a preventive method, but as a reaction to an observable problem. If the plants never need it throughout their life-cycle, it is never used.
However, I do use it always added to the water in which I germinate the seeds, it keeps the water real clean, since at this latitude algae starts to form fast on stagnated water, but adding the H2O2 solves that problem.
paz y salud
I've read on one of the links posted by minds I, that storm rain have a higher % of hydrogen peroxide than regular rain...Here where i live (atlantic coast) there is a lot of stroms during the year and the nature around is well green and heatly...i know that even our colon (intestine part) build hydrogen...
so here is my question why hydrogen peroxide would be bad in organic when nature seems to use it for all kind of stuff?
and if hydrogen kills the bacteria, can the reborn of new bactaria can be benefical to the plant?
maybe nature have hydrogen on this purpose so it can clean and make new bacteria the day after, i dont know just a thought...
so here is my question why hydrogen peroxide would be bad in organic when nature seems to use it for all kind of stuff?
and if hydrogen kills the bacteria, can the reborn of new bactaria can be benefical to the plant?
maybe nature have hydrogen on this purpose so it can clean and make new bacteria the day after, i dont know just a thought...
Paz, those are fine uses of peroxide, as long as you are not adding it to your soil to make up for poor drainage or to "hyperoxygenate". I use it all over the place as a disinfectant, when my intent is to oxidize something. I think I speak for the other sceptics too, when I point out that no one is anti h2o2.
It does occur in nature. Even human beings make small amounts of it. But h2o2 is not distilled or concentrated from a natural source. it's synthesized artificially, and if used as a shortcut, it's no longer organic growing.
So here is the crux of the disagreement expressed here: the definition of organic. If you say organic means setting up an organic system in which nature can do its thing and produce results for you, h2o2 as a water additive is not for you.
If organic just means avoiding a list of prohibited substances, and h2o2 is not on your list, then you believe it is organic.
It does occur in nature. Even human beings make small amounts of it. But h2o2 is not distilled or concentrated from a natural source. it's synthesized artificially, and if used as a shortcut, it's no longer organic growing.
So here is the crux of the disagreement expressed here: the definition of organic. If you say organic means setting up an organic system in which nature can do its thing and produce results for you, h2o2 as a water additive is not for you.
If organic just means avoiding a list of prohibited substances, and h2o2 is not on your list, then you believe it is organic.
As a professional 'horticulturalist' I'm curious/interested in what role peroxide plays in my industry.
A review of the 5 major 'horticultural suppliers' here in the valley turned up only one company which had any 'peroxide product' of any kind and that was for cleaning plastic nursery pots.
Since it's now the 'conventional wisdom' on this thread that somehow peroxide is widely used, then I'd be interested in how it's used exactly and then, of course, which 'horticultural suppliers' actually offer these products.
I'm curious - as usual.
CC
A review of the 5 major 'horticultural suppliers' here in the valley turned up only one company which had any 'peroxide product' of any kind and that was for cleaning plastic nursery pots.
Since it's now the 'conventional wisdom' on this thread that somehow peroxide is widely used, then I'd be interested in how it's used exactly and then, of course, which 'horticultural suppliers' actually offer these products.
I'm curious - as usual.
CC
good day maryjohn,
after reading this whole thread, you are right in that the crux of the problem is the definition of what organic means. I also understand your point that although artificially made H2O2 leaves no harmful residues, the manufacturing process itself does (althought I am not well informed on this last point).
I tend to agree that to farm truly organic, all you need you should be able to prepare, including pesticides etc... if it has to be bought at a store and comes in a plastic bottle, we can say it is not organic even if the contents are.
Clackamas, there are many examples of agricultural uses of H2O2:
http://www.agriculturalsolutions.com.au/pdf/HO10 - HYDROGEN PEROXIDE IN AGRICULTURE2.pdf
http://tuberose.com/Hydrogen_Peroxide.html
"Hydrogen Peroxide And Farming
The Amish started using hydrogen peroxide in agriculture. Amish people spray their string beans after they're done yielding, with a solution of hydrogen peroxide several times in the morning. Those beans re-bloom, and they get another 1-3 pickings. They spray it on their cabbage and on their cauliflower and potatoes, and the bugs leave. They spray their alfalfa with it and they find that they get 6 inches more growth, and the alfalfa aphids and weevils leave. An ounce of 3% H2O2 per quart of water used. Spray the solution on the leaves as well. Seeds germinate faster, with bigger sprouts when they are first soaked in one ounce of H2O2 to a pint of water. Instead of cutting trees that are diseased or otherwise struggling, spray them with 1 part H2O2 to 32 parts water. To use it as an insecticide, take a gallon of water and add 8 oz. of white sugar, and 8 oz. of 3% hydrogen peroxide and spray your plants with it. The sugar absorbs the hydrogen peroxide, and it sticks to the leaf. However it will fall off if it rains. If you do your carrots with this sugar solution they will foliage feed and become very sweet. The H2O2 stimulates the plants so they take out more nitrogen from the air."
peace
after reading this whole thread, you are right in that the crux of the problem is the definition of what organic means. I also understand your point that although artificially made H2O2 leaves no harmful residues, the manufacturing process itself does (althought I am not well informed on this last point).
I tend to agree that to farm truly organic, all you need you should be able to prepare, including pesticides etc... if it has to be bought at a store and comes in a plastic bottle, we can say it is not organic even if the contents are.
Clackamas, there are many examples of agricultural uses of H2O2:
http://www.agriculturalsolutions.com.au/pdf/HO10 - HYDROGEN PEROXIDE IN AGRICULTURE2.pdf
http://tuberose.com/Hydrogen_Peroxide.html
"Hydrogen Peroxide And Farming
The Amish started using hydrogen peroxide in agriculture. Amish people spray their string beans after they're done yielding, with a solution of hydrogen peroxide several times in the morning. Those beans re-bloom, and they get another 1-3 pickings. They spray it on their cabbage and on their cauliflower and potatoes, and the bugs leave. They spray their alfalfa with it and they find that they get 6 inches more growth, and the alfalfa aphids and weevils leave. An ounce of 3% H2O2 per quart of water used. Spray the solution on the leaves as well. Seeds germinate faster, with bigger sprouts when they are first soaked in one ounce of H2O2 to a pint of water. Instead of cutting trees that are diseased or otherwise struggling, spray them with 1 part H2O2 to 32 parts water. To use it as an insecticide, take a gallon of water and add 8 oz. of white sugar, and 8 oz. of 3% hydrogen peroxide and spray your plants with it. The sugar absorbs the hydrogen peroxide, and it sticks to the leaf. However it will fall off if it rains. If you do your carrots with this sugar solution they will foliage feed and become very sweet. The H2O2 stimulates the plants so they take out more nitrogen from the air."
peace
Good day to you Paz
well, I see your point but I am not going to go plant my own neem trees, harvest the nuts, and process them.
I don't believe my definition hinges on whether you prepare an additive yourself. Compare your own poop to worm poop and you will see what i mean. Sometimes it's best to leave it to others.
I found this interesting, from your second link
and also this one, which i must confessed raised an eyebrow:
I can promise you, you can do no such thing with h2o2, in dogs, cats, or any other animal.
from wiki:
well, I see your point but I am not going to go plant my own neem trees, harvest the nuts, and process them.
I don't believe my definition hinges on whether you prepare an additive yourself. Compare your own poop to worm poop and you will see what i mean. Sometimes it's best to leave it to others.
I found this interesting, from your second link
and also this one, which i must confessed raised an eyebrow:
I can promise you, you can do no such thing with h2o2, in dogs, cats, or any other animal.
from wiki:
good day again maryjohn
lol @ the human poop vs. worm poop reference
indeed, it is best to leave that to others...my point about it was just that even if the product is organic, like neem extracts, maybe they package the extracts in non-friendly to the environment bottles, so on one side the manufactures help by providing an organic product, but fail by not giving it a proper package.
so if one is able to grow from seed to harvest without having to buy anything that leaves any sort of non-biodegradable trash, one could be said to be truly organic...
regarding the added stabilizers to many of the 3% brands of H2O2, not all labs do it, you gotta call the labs of the H2O2 you would like to use and ask them if their product is pure H2O2 or if it has anything else? I did this myself when I noticed that different brands of 3% h.peroxide had different colours, some bluish, some greenish, others yellowish and some transparent. Some of these brands even add perfumes to it and all...
one has to make sure the H2O2 one uses has nothing extra added... either that, or just get the food grade type h.peroxide, jst learn how to dillute it well and all will be good.
also, the added stabilizers are not present in ammounts that represent a danger to your plants or you if you atomize it dilluted on your plants to control diseases for example.
regarding cats and dogs... here where I live, a common remedy for cough, obstructed chest, throat diseases, etc... is to dillute 3% H2O2 and do gargles with it, do not swallow it though... when you have a clogged nose, it opens it up, etc... there are even people who claim they cured themselves of cancer using h.peroxide (big claim, I know). I never use anti-biotics when I get a sore throat, just gargle for a few days with h.peroxide and after that I am as good as new.
much peace
