Hydrogen peroxide used on a all organic grow??

[minds_I]

Hello Maryjohn,

It is well you have nothing further to say on the subject because you really have said nothing of substance to counter any point...to continue with your retoric serves no one...least of all yourself.

I do try post articles or links relavent to the topic at hand and generally supporting my point as well.

So, if in the future, you should read something posted by me on any topic...please, do not feel compelled to reply...least you should have something of substance and relevance to say.

Bene taceo sententia stultus alterno aufero dubium.

minds_I

 

[maryjohn]

well, I wouldn't go that far, and I should not be so rash. I can never drop an argument. That was just posturing to try to get you to listen (didn't work). I thought you posted something of substance, it was just misinterpreted and made the wrong point. Also was not searchable, and could not be cut and pasted. There is no reason to take this respectful conversation personally (easier, i know, if I don't go around threatening to walk away- apologies).


Perhaps someone neutral could read that article and weigh in? Have I really been so out there? I'd love to know which points I got wrong , maybe with IN CONTEXT quotes to show the authors' intent.

from the other link you posted:

The key to a quality nursery
crop is the provision of adequate
drainage and aeration in the
growing medium. This can be
achieved by using:
• sufficiently coarse media
components
• deeper containers where
feasible,
and avoiding:
• finer components that may
plug up the larger pore spaces
• overmixing that would reduce
the particle size of compo-
nents
• irrigation and handling prac-
tices that may compact
growing media
• the use of components like
sawdust that may decompose
resulting in the loss of large
pore spaces.

notice there is no mention of h2o2? The tray method of watering in particular does wonders for soil compaction - I have some species that can only be watered from the bottom. Finding proper coarse perlite is also smart.

RE: future posts - if you post it here, I suspect it's bullshit, and i read it - I will say it. If you post some new research on this topic, I will also come back and revisit it, because I feel you are misleading others to use synthetic chemicals they don't need. If I'm wrong I want to know, but so far everything I read on this topic leads to the conclusion that it is not necessary since the potting mix we use is made to avoid anoxia (that's what the perlite does). On the topic of your article, I am done.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Maybe the lack of science is because you aren't providing any, maryjohn?
First of all, I have seen no study at all that shows that H2O2 kills all of the bacterium. I have seen studies that present findings of H2O2 killing most all anaerobic bacterium (bacteria that does not feed on oxygen), yet provides a healthy environment for aerobic bacterium (bacteria that feeds on oxygen...which is what H2O2 provides).
And as the oxygenating properties of the H2O2 dissipates, the off-fall from the bacteria kill leaves even more food for the remaining bacteria.

Immediate results can be seen using H2O2 for both fungus gnats and both surface and subsurface algae.

H2O2 provides dissolved oxygen to the water supply in an amount about 200 times that of what any well diffused bubbler could possibly. This provides the root zone with more oxygen. And the providing of more oxygen to the root zone is the main reason why a hydro grow will outperform a soil grow in both time and yield.

I have also read a study that indicates H2O2 makes a great foliar spray as well, and can provide a chelating of sorts for the stomata, and can help with Co2 intake. Although I have never actually leaf fed with the stuff before, so I can't back that one.

But I have used it in all other phases of growth, in both soil and hydro, and it is a very effective and viable part of a nutrient/feed regimen/ It also has provided many a grower with fantastic results, including it helping with correcting ills of the grow, such as algae, gnats, and root rot. It's prowess can be immediately seen if you have a pot bound plant that has no more room for roots. It can actually help that plant stay active and healthy longer than it would without a repot and no add.

I'm sorry...but to debunk a theory, or even a settled practice, one needs to provide more than their simple opinion. Don you have anything else besides that, maryjohn?
BTW....H2O2 is far from a synthetic chemical. Study up.

 

[maryjohn]

hoosier, your points:

hydro - the topic is not hydro, so let's put that aside.

Fungus gnats - they are a sign of over watering, no need for synthetic chemicals. Neem if necessary. They like fungus and moisture. Don't kill your fungus with chemicals, just let the top layers dry out a bit.

Algae - excessive watering

root rot - excessive watering

bacteria - nobody feeds on oxygen, oxygen is rather used to mop up hydrogen in a process called respiration. Some bacteria use it, some don't, some can do either. Not sure what you are getting at.

Aeration/oxygenation - the same can be achieved without synthetic chemicals by shaking your water container vigorously

Foliar feeding - let's see the study. I am skeptical

sounds like you tend to water too much (root rot, fungus gnats, moss). I would ease up on the water, and maybe lighten your soil mix. Is it a damp region? Basically you are creating anoxic conditions, then pouring on h2o2 to fix the problem you made. You could always just wait longer between waterings.

The objection I still have to h2o2 for anything but cleaning is that it's an unnecessary solution to a non-existent problem, and I've asked what is the good reason for adding synthetic chemicals to an otherwise organic grow.

The answer is an article that does not advocate for h202 anywhere other than in surface drip irrigation (which suffer from excessive soil compaction and anoxic water conditions) systems where the owner cannot afford mechanical aeration.


by asking me for "science" to back up my skepticism, you are asking me to prove a negative. That's not how it works. Organic gardening gets along fine without h2o2, and in order to convince organic gardeners honestly, you should provide evidence to back up your assertions. It's not true just because no one can disprove it.

I've made several points, in a post I took the time to write after carefully reading the whole article. If anyone cares to refute those points, I welcome your input.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Start by studying up on what H2O2 is exactly. Tell us how it is synthetic....

Then grow something and show us something. You make lots of assumptions as to what I do and don't do. Thing is there is evidence quite easily obtainable of what I do and don't do. I see no evidence of you even being a credible part of this debate. None. (shrug)

Right off...if anyone contends that by simply shaking up their water, they can provide the same amount of DO as an H2O2 treatment, is simply speaking out their ass. Sorry to be blunt, but such arguments are nothing but opinion, and a lack of actual knowledge about the topic.

 

[maryjohn]

Start by studying up on what H2O2 is exactly. Tell us how it is synthetic....

from wikipedia (i should not have to post it).

Manufacture

Hydrogen peroxide is manufactured today almost exclusively by the autoxidation of 2-ethyl-9,10-dihydroxyanthracene (C16H14O2) to 2-ethylanthraquinone (C16H12O2) and hydrogen peroxide using oxygen from the air. This is known as the Riedl-Pfleiderer process.[7]

In this reaction, the hydroxy groups on the middle ring of anthracene are deprotonated and are turned into ketones, while two double bonds are lost from the middle ring and are replaced as C=O double bonds in the ketone groups. The anthraquinone derivative is then extracted out and reduced back to the dihydroxy compound using hydrogen gas in the presence of a metal catalyst.

as for the results of mechaniclal vs synthetic chemical aeration, why don't you post the results, and how the significant difference justifies using it? You say h2o2 water is better than shaken water, so show me how. I shall only say that as you approach a difference, you will also be approaching the line where the concentration will destroy bacterial life.

As for my credibility, that's a cheap way to dodge the questions I have asked, and I'm not going to get into it. Besides, I have no knowledge of any cannabis growing, just normal potted plants and some carnivorous ones. So I can't show you anything. I'm making all this up for fun.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Besides, I have no knowledge of any cannabis growing, just normal potted plants and some carnivorous ones. So I can't show you anything. I'm making all this up for fun.

Obviously.

 

[maryjohn]

you have something similar in you disclaimer.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

One can contend that H2O2, derived by any available method, is far more of an organic substance than water. Would an organic grower find that distilled water, or DI water is a synthesized chemical, and should be disqualified from holding the name "organic"?
Perhaps rain water is all we can grow with if we want to be organic? BTW...the rain water contains organic H2O as well as organic H2O2, and neither would be any different in molecularity than with of those substances derived by a process.

From the same article you touted:

Some horticulturalists and users of hydroponics advocate the use of weak hydrogen peroxide solution ("Spanish water") in watering solutions. Its spontaneous decomposition releases oxygen that enhances a plant's root development and helps to treat root rot (cellular root death due to lack of oxygen) and a variety of other pests. [12][13] There is some peer-reviewed academic research to back up some of the claims.[14]

 

[lovelightpower]

h2o2 has helped me in my organic, potted situation.

i was suffering with pythium, but this has disappeared now, lush growth is all i see.

surely if h2o2 was killing the micro-herd, the plant would display nutrient def.

my plants do not.

p.s. i like your style minds I

 

[Blowstrees]

Im not going to begin to debate this subject because I can see I will get suckered into never ending word match lol...But I have to say that it is rediculous that when one person disagrees with the points one makes, the original poster tells them not to bother to comment on the thread...or begins to make personal attacks on the one who disagrees.


I actually agree with MaryJohn on this subject. He is not debating that the use of h202 has its practical uses, but that it is not to be used in an organic grow! And it should not. This thread was made in the ORGANIC SOIL section...not Hydro. The main purpose of organic growing is to maximize the amount of benificial bacteria to break down the organic components so they in turn can produce what your plants need. h2o2 does not discriminate between aerobic and anerobic...it will kill the beni's you worked hard to put into your soil for what? the increse of oxy? your doing more harm to your garden than good...another perfect example of people trying to fix a problem they dont have.

Ref Hydro: The only justifiable reason to use h2o2 would be for these types of gardens where benificial microbes and bacteria are not the goal. Since your working with synthetic/mineral based nutrients usually in hydro, the beni's wouldnt stand a chance in that enviroment so increased oxygen to the roots plus the benifits of protecting yourself from harmful bacteria/disease is a huge plus.

But seriously guys...People need to develop a thicker skin online if people disagree with the points your making. If you cant provide any more solid info or even open yourself up to the possibility that some other point other than your own can be valid...then you will never learn anything...Dont resort to personal attacks...

 

[Blowstrees]

Some horticulturalists and users of hydroponics advocate the use of weak hydrogen peroxide solution ("Spanish water") in watering solutions. Its spontaneous decomposition releases oxygen that enhances a plant's root development and helps to treat root rot (cellular root death due to lack of oxygen) and a variety of other pests. [12][13] There is some peer-reviewed academic research to back up some of the claims.[14]

 

[Blowstrees]

h2o2 has helped me in my organic, potted situation.

i was suffering with pythium, but this has disappeared now, lush growth is all i see.

surely if h2o2 was killing the micro-herd, the plant would display nutrient def.

my plants do not.

p.s. i like your style minds I

Yes...It is killing your microherd.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

h2o2 does not discriminate between aerobic and anerobic...it will kill the beni's you worked hard to put into your soil for what?

Just about everything you say is hinged on the above statement. Do you have any supporting evidence to back up your claim here? Or is it just that you feel this is what is happening?

Yes...It is killing your microherd.

Prove it. Evidence I have seen says otherwise.

Some horticulturalists and users of hydroponics advocate the use of weak hydrogen peroxide solution ("Spanish water") in watering solutions. Its spontaneous decomposition releases oxygen that enhances a plant's root development and helps to treat root rot (cellular root death due to lack of oxygen) and a variety of other pests. [12][13] There is some peer-reviewed academic research to back up some of the claims.[14]

 

[maryjohn]

h2o2 has helped me in my organic, potted situation.

i was suffering with pythium, but this has disappeared now, lush growth is all i see.

not keeping your plant's feet wet would have worked just as well as adding synthetic chemicals.

 

[lovelightpower]

Yes...It is killing your microherd.

ok, this does not answer the question (yes it was a Q even though i didn't put a ? on the end of it), which was; surely if h2o2 was killing the micro-herd, the plant would display nutrient def.

if i was to continue its use, what negative effects would i see demonstrated by my plants? because we all read our plants health by their growth and deficiencies.

if my plants weren't so healthy because of h2o2, i would dis-continue the use immediately.

love and respect, to all with knowledge to share.

 

[Blowstrees]

How Hydrogen Peroxide Kills Bacteria
Hydrogen peroxide is always in a dark-brown bottle as light decreases its potency. Hydrogen peroxide is created from oxygen and hydrogen molecules. It is the oxygen responsible for the killing of germs. When hydrogen peroxide is applied to a surface, it reacts quickly and then breaks down into water hydrogen. At the same time, free oxygen radicals are released; these create oxidation, a chemical process in which oxygen combines with another substance to break down or change the function of the molecules. Through oxidation, the bacteria decomposes, rendering it harmless.


Just facts Hooiser. What is your evidence that it does NOT discriminate. Show me your indisputable facts.

Its not what I feel is happening....I mean...its just what it is.

 

[Blowstrees]

Lovelite....what is your method of growing?

And how can you say its directly related to your h202 use???

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Its not what I feel is happening....I mean...its just what it is.

But all you provide is your take on it. You made the assertion that is kills the microherd, period. I want evidence of it, not just your take.

it reacts quickly and then breaks down into water hydrogen

Again, your take on things. I have also seen others post this very thing, and it seems all are getting it from their take on seeing hydrogen peroxide in action on a wound or something. Do you think that this reaction is immediate, and the dissipation of the H2o2 happens instantly?

 

[lovelightpower]

my medium was coco/castings/vermiculite/perlite with clay pebbles at the bottom for drainage. i've swapped recently to canna pro plus. i'm in pots, and hand watering.

my stems were very red/purple and very woody. leaves were yellowing starting lowest fan leaves working their way up the plant.

h2o2 stopped these symptoms immediately.

my friend had the same problem of very red woody stems, and i said try using h2o2, but he refused and struggled on a couple of month. but after much badgering he finally tried it, and straight away the red stems became lush green.

this is my experience.