LED lights?

[LED_experiments]

hello dave
so you also got to this thread nice nice
so, how are your plants? how many of them do you have under leds? so you started only leds, or do you still combine them with hps?
i still didn't do the upgrade of that 400. right now i have no time to do it, but i think i'll do it soon.
nice to see you here.

 

[DeadlyFoez]

More info for ya all

More info for ya all

I have done a lot of previous research on LEDs a while ago. I saw results of a grow that was identical except for the types of lights used. This person used 60w of LEDs and a 150w hps, and the LED grow was 3 times bigger by weight than the hps grow.

These are the facts about light, as mentioned a little earlier by someone else is that CFL, HPS, and MH all waste lots of energy in making light that is unusable by plants and by creating tremendous amounts of heat. If you look at some graphs it shows that all those lights create lots of light that we can see, but very little light for what the plants use....very little. LEDs create a high amount of light for those specific wavelengths. But if you were able to compare 60w of LEDs to 150w hps you would see that there is over 4 times the amount of usable light output by the LEDs than there is by the hps. This is fact. There are graphs that show and display this info. Unfortunately since OG is down, I cant find the links to show this info.

The problem with LEDs is that the intensity diminishes a lot the further away they are, so over 6 inches they are close to useless....that is unless you think outside the box. You dont need all your LEDs on an array, you can easily have them hanging by a wire into the middle of you plants. LEDs dont create radiant heat, though they do create a little by themselves, but if you have an oscillating fan, it will easily take care of that.

I am 120% all for using LEDs. I am going to create a grow cab based around LEDs.

http://www.luxeonstar.com/ This is a great source for high power LEDs.
http://www.lumileds.com/products/ And this is a way cheaper place to buy them.

Now if you were to use some of those on an array that would work great and you wouldn't need all that many, and if you hang a few inside you plants then you'll be golden.

I even read something that if you use liquid nitrogen, or that stuff the docs use to get rid of warts and put it on your LEDs, then you can overdrive them intensely and it changes the wavelength of light output to the deeper end of the light spectrum. I.E. doing it to blue could make it close to ultra violate and doing it to red could make them infrared. But its not possible to keep liquid nitrogen on you LEDs.

But hell, you guys wanna talk about good growing lights, google for "God Light" and you'll read an article about a guy that created this light so you can see through walls, cure cancer, and also grow at phenomenal rates. This guy is supposedly going to win the nobel prize for this thing.

But back to topic. LEDs can do amazing things, you just have to know how to use them. The LEDs in those links that I provided above have a turn on time of 100 nano seconds. So what you can do is setup a system somehow (I'm not an electrical engineer or I'd tell you how to do this) and make it so that you can adjust a blink rate for these lights, by doing that you can easily cut down half of your electricity usage while the plants continue to absorb just as much light. Or you can make it so that it blinks and when the reds are of, the blues are on at a very fast rate.

FUNFACT: If you were to use yellow and green LEDs and have them blink, so the green is on when the yellow if off, at a high rate, it can trick your eyes into seeing a white light in the room instead of green or yellow.

Also, Many say that if you need to work on your plants during their night cycle, what you can do so you dont hermie them is use a green bulb....What about green LEDs. You could use them to be able to view your reservoir levels at a glance and not contribute to algae growing in it. Or there's many other ways you could use green ones.

Plants dont see green light so the possible uses for them can be very good for certain things.

I hope this info that I contributed is useful to you all. And if there if anything that I am wrong about, i'm sure you all will let me know, but I tried to tell you all as much as I can remember (feakin pot head) with being as accurate as I can remember it. But if I am wrong about something, please have a link that I can look up and research it so I can correct myself instead of justthrough hearsay. Thank you all.

 

[LED_experiments]

DeadlyFoez: do you have an opportunity to tell us which models did that guy use? specifications of leds, where did he buy them? if this is your friend, i'm sure that he can give you that info. i also made quite a lot of researches about using leds, i also did some grows, sold some lamps, but i'm always interested in other grower experiments. which wavelenghts did he use, which ratio, did he use only blue and red, did he also use green and yello? or even better, can you get this guy here, so that we can disguss with him about that.
as far as i am in this business, i believe, that we will put HPS, MH, CFLs and other lamps into museum and that leds will be used for growing. all those lamps that people use nowdays are pure waste of energy. the future is in leds. the main problem is to find the best combination of leds to get the biggest g/w ratio. we surely have already beaten the hps ratio, but why having just 5 times higher ratio, if we can have 10 or more? more people are doing this, sooner we'll get optimal results.

 

[DeadlyFoez]

Unfortunately, since OG went down and I've had to reformat my cpu and lost my links (too stoned to remember to backup that stuff). I think if I can remember that the exact wavelengths were 427 and 635 that would be ideal. But these LEDs are exact, but close enough. It was a buddy of mine and I that found these luxeon LEDs. We knew these would be awesome. So we were going to build a few arrays and hang some in the middle. But these Luxeon V LEDs do generate more heat, (they're freaking 5 watts a piece(Not available in red yet)) , so we were going to buy some small copper ram heatsinks and then it would be perfect.

I believe the ratio was 9 red:1 blue. The LEDs that we were going to use was going to be the "royal blue" and the red. I might be able to still find some info but I'll have to look later.

 

[PearlJamFan]

Or better yet, how is this for power supply?

http://www.kitsusa.net/phpstore/html...ER-SUPPLY.html

Product Overview:

Ideal for any device drawing up to 2A Fully regulated to deliver constant DC power Rotary selector switch selects 3, 4-1/2, 6, 7-1/2, 9 and 12V Power projects or small battery operated devices

or this one
http://www.kitsusa.net/phpstore/html...-at-2-Amp.html
Product Overview:

HY-152A Dc Power Supply (Switching-mode) 0-15V-2A

Specifications:
1) Output voltage: 0-15V
2) Output current: 2AMP
3) Display: analog display
4) Input voltage: 110 VAC
5) Protection: reverse polarity protection, short-circuit protection
6) Output type: single output
7) Dimensions: 120 x 162 x 72mm

Manufactured by OTE PRECISION INSTRUMENT CORP, INC (tm)

 

[LED_experiments]

you will need more than one of this. if you do the math, this gives out 24W MAX (but i don't reccomend you to use it at 100%, i had some problems with PSs and burned them even if they operated only at 70%) in my guess you shouldn't load them more than 20W. it looks fine to me, but as i said, you will need more of them for your setup.

 

[Mr GreenJeans]

Someone in the optical industry told me he could get a true 400 lumens per led based lamp today, that will increase 150-200% in the next year. Don't know if true high output led plant lights will be realistic for another couple years. In a year or so they might be just the thing for small grows though...

 

[PearlJamFan]

you will need more than one of this. if you do the math, this gives out 24W MAX (but i don't reccomend you to use it at 100%, i had some problems with PSs and burned them even if they operated only at 70%) in my guess you shouldn't load them more than 20W. it looks fine to me, but as i said, you will need more of them for your setup.

How many do you think I will need? I am thinking of a 2000-3000 LED setup with Blue 3v and Red 2.15v.

 

[DeadlyFoez]

I suggest you use those Luxeon LEDs because each one produces way more light. In turn that makes it so the light can penetrate more. If you get lots of cheap ones then it wont be nearly as good and you'll need to wire more things up. And do like I said and dangled a few into the middle of the plant. I think for one plant you'd do great with about 40 Luxeon III Red and 5 Luxeon V Royal Blue. You would want to evenly spread them out

 

[PearlJamFan]

Well it's too late for that, unles I ebay the LED's I just bought. I guess I will just to try and see.

But how many of those power supplys should I get. Or should I just get a good PC PSU?

 

[DeadlyFoez]

unfortunately, I haven't done the research yet of what would be the best way to power them because I dont have the money to do it in the first place yet.
But my sugestion would be hat there is a link in these pages with a wiring tool thing. Just follow the links pages back. I personally think that a psu would be too much wattage than what you'd use and then you'd have to figure out the wiring and stuff from there

One of my wierder ideas is if you get one of those expandable ball things from a science store and hook your leds on the points then you can expnd it as the plant gets bigger so you can more fully surround the plant with light instead of just the top.

 

[LED_experiments]

PC ps can be used, but you won't use all of the outputs, you will use only those that you need. if you make a 12V array, you connect it to 12V output. if you make strings of other voltage, you can use 5 or 3.5V output (i don't like none of theese two).
i just got the idea. remember i told you how i powered that 400 lamp? i used 13.5V 5A PS. there are some PS that also give you 12-14V output at quite high current. i mean that car-battery charger that you use if you forget to turn off your car lights and then you have to charge your car battery. i think you can use one of theese. the only thing you have to care about is the right current through your strings (i explained you that). you will probbably have to lower the voltage with resistors. but you will use 1-2pcs of them instead of 10pcs (of those you mentioned in your previous posts).

 

[sy9942]

Cannabis is a flowering plant, and there's a chemical compund which mitigates the flowering response in a plant, and that substance is called Phytochrome. Phytochrome is photo-reversible, which means that exposure to light of one wavelength can turn it into a form which is sensitive to another wavelength, and exposure to that wavelength will reverse it into a form which is sensitive to the original wavelength again. It is largely a signalling compound. Phytochrome has two forms of interest to us, one form called by a variety of names (Pr660, Pr, P660) which is sensitive to red light at a peak sensitivity of 660nm, and another form (Pfr730, Pfr, P730) which is most sensitive at 730nm. The improper stimulation of Phytochrome in experiments thus far is what I believe to be the cause of the lackluster results. That is only a theory, however, and is unproven.

To date, all experiments have completely omitted far-red light, using only red and blue visible light. These experiments have resulted in plants which do not perform well. On Cannabisworld before the shutdown there was a side-by-side comparison of a 30ish watt LED panel and a 70W HPS and the HPS yielded more than six times what the LED panel did at only a little more than twice the wattage. Another grow on Overgrow yielded a little over a half-ounce under 36W, but 9W of the 36W was a small compact fluorescent lamp which may have helped to even out the spectrum and provide more of what the plant needed during flower.

During vegetative growth, conventional LEDs are on par with fluorescents while consuming less energy, but you need high-power LEDs to compete with HPS. I say this because conventional LEDs are able to provide the right light in terms of wavelength (color) but not in terms of intensity. So the upper leaves of a bush would receive adequate light but the lower leaves would not, much like a grow using a few linear fluorescent tubes.

During flower, the spectrum needs to be adjusted to contain significantly more red as well as far-red in order to maintain a ratio of Prfr which will cause the plant to continue to produce flowers.

The use of far red is a theory, at this point, as it is unproven and untested. It seems the logical conclusion to me after reading much about phytochrome and how it functions, though. I haven't had the opportunity to verify this theory, but there will be a time in the coming months when I will be putting Kill Bill from Reservoir seeds to the test with a custom-designed LED array.

The other benefit that LEDs have is that they can be turned on and off in nanoseconds (billionths of a second) of time and this means that you could time the light output to the chemical processes which occur in the plant. Suffice it to say that you could dramatically reduce power usage if you were only providing the plant with light at the precise moments when it could turn that light into chemical energy, and not at any other time.

Most, if not all, of these concepts are outlined in a patent which was issued in 1988 and will expire in 2008, enabling just about anyone to market a device or system which meets the spectral criteria as well as the timed pulse criteria. The patent# is 5,012,609 and the title is "Method and apparatus for irradiation of plants using optoelectronic devices"

In short: do not buy the LED lights on the market right now, because they're a rip-off for anything but vegetative growing. In time, with proper spectral adjustment, LED lights will be able to perform on par with HID lighting in terms of growing mature, flowering cannabis.

br26: The next time you copy and paste something I've written on another website (in this case, Overgrow), please cite your source. I don't mind people spreading valid information, but I do mind when people reading the information don't know where it came from, because then they're not sure whether or not the information is actually valid. I realise that at this point you can't post a link to Overgrow, but in the future please try to avoid such blatant plagiarism.

 

[sy9942]

Why would you want to use 2 different red LED's? One is obveously better than the other. We just need to figure out wich is better, and use that one exclusively.

That is a bad idea, simply because there are different subsystems in the plant which depend on different wavelengths of red light. There is no "better" of the two reds if they're both used by different subsystems in the plant.

By "better" I mean enduces more photosynthesis. If you use both, you give up realestate that could be used to house an LED that can stimulate more photosynthisis in exchange for one that can stimulate it less. Why wuld you do this?

Photosynthesis isn't the only biological process occuring inside the plant which is stimulated by light. Photosynthesis is the direct translation of light into chemical energy, but light can also be translated into chemical signals used to control flowering, branching, leaf size, and so on.

Photosynthisis is more responsive to 660nm than it is to 632nm, however, the 632nm LED produces significantly more light than the 660nm. We need to figure out if the increase in light intensity is enough to overcome the sensativity issue. If it is, use the 632nm. If it's not, use the 660nm.

Chlorophyll A is about 2.5 times more sensitive at 660nm than Chlorophyll B is at 635nm. So if you can generate 2.5 times more light at 632nm (or 635nm, close enough) than you can at 660nm using a given number of LEDs, then you can possibly cut costs. You will still however need 660nm LEDs to control Phytochrome.

As far as ratio of blue:red, I believe the nasa research into LED growing showed that the optimal ratio was 9:1 red:blue.

NASA's studies didn't use flowering plants, so the ratio of red:blue doesn't take into consideration the needs of phytochrome (which needs both red and far red). The true "ideal" ratio has not been determined. There were a lot of experimenters on Overgrow and with it going offline we lost a valuable resource in the LED growing effort. If OG hadn't gone offline, I imagine we would be closer right now to knowing what the ideal ratios during veg and flower really are.

 

[LED_experiments]

nice to see you in this thread sy
i respect your knowledge on this subject. i was allready wondering when you will post your first reply here.

 

[firstavailable]

Is there any benafit to stimulating Chlorophyll A as apposed to Chlorophyll B, or vice versa?

For example if you had space for 1 LED, would it be better to put in a 660nm LED or a 632nm LED that generates 2.5 times more lights, and all other factors being equal, what would be better? Or would it not matter?

 

[DeadlyFoez]

When I do my setup, I'll make it a 1:5 blue:red and I'll make half 660 and half 632

 

[LED_experiments]

when i do my next experiment, i'll do 1:2:4:8 (400, 470, 630, 660)

 

[sy9942]

Is there any benafit to stimulating Chlorophyll A as apposed to Chlorophyll B, or vice versa?

For example if you had space for 1 LED, would it be better to put in a 660nm LED or a 632nm LED that generates 2.5 times more lights, and all other factors being equal, what would be better? Or would it not matter?

That's a good question. The answer is: it depends! It depends upon the ratio of chlorophyll A to chlorophyll B in the plant. This can vary between strains and additionally can be variable depending on environment. Light cycle as well as lighting types can also affect the ratio. Somebody needs to do some serious biological experiments to isolate the two chlorophylls in a solution for a given strain at various stages in the life cycle as well as after different types of light treatment in order to determine how much you can influence the ratio and what the best use of LEDs would be.

 

[sy9942]

Please don't forget about Phytochrome's 730nm needs! Phytochrome heavily mediates flowering response, and since the buds (flowers) are the part of the plant we're most interested in, we should dedicate some attention to stimulating Phytochrome. The ratio of red to far-red in sunlight is approximately 1:0.88. In most experiments done thus far, far-red has been omitted and the results have been less than encouraging.