You CAN judge the MAGAts by their lack of cover

[EsterEssence]

I’m in the high risk age group and live alone, so I have no choice than to do some shopping on my own, and I hope you are wearing a mask, so I can live another year to grow some cannabis, and make some hash and rosin. My friends are relying on me for their medicine...

 

[h.h.]

I’ll be dead long before herd immunity kicks in.

 

[Absolem]

.

 

[gaiusmarius]

Should we pass out infected blankets? Would you accept one? Putting trump aside. This has nothing to do with trump actually, except that he is peddling unproven remedies with very little knowledge of which he speaks. Other than being president, he’s just another know nothing dumb shit.

Herd immunity did not work for the Indians. They died. That’s just wishful thinking.

are you not being a bit extrem in your comparison? no one is saying not to socially distance, or give out infected masks to create herd imunity. not wearing a mask except when it really is beneficial does not equal handing out contaminated blankets imho. i think there is a risk to extrem fear and panic too. this thing still follows the laws of phisics even if it is scary and doctors are getting better at treating it. i try and remain positive and really hope it will not be as some have predicted, ie years of this fear and uncertainty. would our western civilizaion hold up if this were to go on for the rest of the year or even longer?

 

[TakenByTheSky]

are you not being a bit extrem in your comparison? no one is saying not to socially distance, or give out infected masks to create herd imunity. not wearing a mask except when it really is beneficial does not equal handing out contaminated blankets imho. i think there is a risk to extrem fear and panic too. this thing still follows the laws of phisics even if it is scary and doctors are getting better at treating it. i try and remain positive and really hope it will not be as some have predicted, ie years of this fear and uncertainty. would our western civilizaion hold up if this were to go on for the rest of the year or even longer?

H.h is just being his typical self and comparing modern day anti-maskers to the early American settlers that handed out small pox infected blankets to the native Americans to kill them off.

 

[h.h.]

are you not being a bit extrem in your comparison? no one is saying not to socially distance, or give out infected masks to create herd imunity. not wearing a mask except when it really is beneficial does not equal handing out contaminated blankets imho. i think there is a risk to extrem fear and panic too. this thing still follows the laws of phisics even if it is scary and doctors are getting better at treating it. i try and remain positive and really hope it will not be as some have predicted, ie years of this fear and uncertainty. would our western civilizaion hold up if this were to go on for the rest of the year or even longer?

Isn’t that what we’re doing now? Only wearing a mask when in contact with others. We’re lucky people do that. If they’re infected, they may as well be handing out blankets. Panic certainly won’t help. Precaution will.

We don’t have herd immunity from the flu. It’s not something we should expect.

We’ll find out more and more about how it spreads and hopefully we can start to let our guard down accordingly.

 

[gaiusmarius]

Isn’t that what we’re doing now? Only wearing a mask when in contact with others. We’re lucky people do that. If they’re infected, they may as well be handing out blankets. Panic certainly won’t help. Precaution will.

We don’t have herd immunity from the flu. It’s not something we should expect.

We’ll find out more and more about how it spreads and hopefully we can start to let our guard down accordingly.

don't over dramatize, sick people are ordered to stay home in the first place. those are the category that everyone agrees should wear masks if they have to leave their quarantine, which they shouldn't. anyone coughing and or sneezing in public is an asshole and could be compared to the toxic blanket giver, but a healthy person not wearing a mask outside is in no way comparable if you think about it.

i have decided to trust our gov and they are saying things are moving in a good direction, yes we still follow all the rules about distance and yes we are told to put masks on when you get close to a non household member, hairdresser for example, massage therapist. of course anyone looking after elderly is wearing a mask to interact. the top expert told us not to wear masks beyond that and specially not to put them on kids that can't put them on and take them off themselves. they still do press conferences without masks only distancing. i trust him (bald headed specilist advising the presidents) , he stands by logic reason and science, not models, concret facts about hospitilization and confirmed covid death rates are used to make the decisions about each step of the reopening. i really think they are considering all factors and doing whats best for the nation as a whole. already now we have created 25 years worth of new debt in just 4 months, we can not go on like this much longer if we don't want to see extreme reduction in quality of life. hence lets hope things continue to get better despite the gradual reopening. time will tell...

 

[h.h.]

How do you know you’re not carrying the virus? Not everybody gets sick. That’s one reason why there’s a huge demand for testing.

I don’t wear a mask outside unless I’m dealing with somebody, then it’s a matter of respecting their health. I see nothing wrong with that. This is not the time to play cowboy.

 

[Microbeman]

gaiusmarius;

A couple of things jumped into my thoughts reading through the exchange between you and hh.

Your point about 25 years of debt. Just think about this, Every capitalist [and maybe communist and socialist too] country in the world is in debt. Overwhelming debt. How absurd this is. How can this be possible? Who owns the debt? One or two families AKA The Deep State? The Cosa Nostra? The Triads? The Yakuza?

Baseless currency is printed as required.

Debt is a meaningless concept outside of me being in debt to my neighbor for helping me or sharing potatoes. What a ridiculous structure we have created.

The example of the blankets laden with smallpox or just indigenous peoples' exposure to it is actually a good example of how herd immunity could fail badly for a large swath of the population.

hh makes a good point that someone perfectly healthy in appearance can be a carrier spreading disease everywhere they go.

 

[White Beard]

This is confusing .. probably cause you're not that smart so your wording is really piss poor ..
So by reading this literally it basically says that if you protest the spreading of covid 19 then soy boy beta males will think you look like Gary Busey,...right ?

You mean, Trump’s bedroom stand-in?

I rather doubt that these petulant-baby “protesters” all look like Eric, Ivanka, & Tiffany’s dad...I think he meant they’re ugly big-mouths.

 

[gaiusmarius]

check this out, Germany also says Covid is way less lethal then was thought.


Coronavirus: German study shows COVID-19 might not be fatal as previously thought

[YOUTUBEIF]rMWdPRhu_p8[/YOUTUBEIF]

 

[growingcrazy]

 

[h.h.]

The number of dead for any given time stays the same. The tested rate of infection goes up.

Another reason for multiple testing. The more we know, the less paranoid we need to be. The more we can open up.

 

[White Beard]

check this out, Germany also says Covid is way less lethal then was thought.

Coronavirus: German study shows COVID-19 might not be fatal as previously thought

[YOUTUBEIF]rMWdPRhu_p8[/YOUTUBEIF]

Interesting interview, thank you. Dr. Streek is to be commended for a more coherent response than I’ve heard from many native English-speakers.

It should be pointed out that *nothing* in the interview supports the idea that “Covid IS WAY LESS LETHAL...”. It says Covid *MIGHT* be less lethal: “*might* be less” is NOT equivalent to “*is way less*”.

I’m quite sure you had no intent to change the meaning of the interview, but this is why it’s important to avoid inflating statements from knowledgeable authorities.

As a former resident of Germany, may I point out that the German population has a different sense of personal space than the US population (we tend to crowd together more on average here)...which is very likely a factor in the mechanics of viral spread in the two countries.

Another factor occurs to me, which is viral load: which is the quantity of viral particles invading a given body; a larger viral load - that is, the ‘dose’ of virus received - has a huge impact on the body’s ability to decode and resist the infection in time to prevent damage and/or death.. Whether or not that infers or confers a full immunity depends on other factors, and is yet to be determined.

One of those factors is mutation, and the woman’s question mentioning mutation, made at least one inaccuracy: she asserted that ‘we are not seeing Covid mutation’, and yet I have seen reports which suggest that C19 is mutating at a faster rate than had been expected, so I think it’s wise to remember that there is much we will not know for certain without the benefit of hindsight. Hindsight is still a ways off: we need vast amounts of testing, we need vast amounts of follow-up with the recovered and the asymptomatic, we need to collate and analyze vast amounts of data - much of which is yet to be generated.

The media like to give us simple answers in bite-sized chunks, and sadly, we can be at the mercy of those decide *which* simple answers and *which* chunks to provide, and in what order. It pays to examine the questions as well as the answers.

If it turns out that the antibodies found in the asymptomatic convey a genuine immunity to C19 given a significantly larger viral load, that will be game-changing, that will likely be the root of an eventual effective vaccine. That is however still to be determined, and our research capacity is still diminished and disorganized under the circumstances, so there is no “fast track” from here to that vaccine that takes less than 8-18 months.

I’ve not investigated this yet, but I received news yesterday that C19 has been found in semen...raising the question of whether it could be, or become, sexually transmitted. Something to think about if you consider the number of women who have been infected with other diseases by partners who either did not know or did not care about their own infection.

Kinda would take social distancing to a new level....

 

[gaiusmarius]

why are you so hesitant to draw the logical conclusion from these serology studies. if we don't play around with words and just look at the maths it has to be way less deadly then we thought if we are now finding way more people have had it then previously assumed. if we go from 3.2 mortality to now 0.3 we can safely say its way less deadly then we thought. thats just plain logic and maths.

as for sex, if talking hugging and kissing is contagious then you better believe actual penetration is contagious too, again logic and common sense. you can't get semen on someone without breaking social distancing in the first place.

 

[h.h.]

A lower mortality rate x A high contagion rate is still just as deadly.

 

[White Beard]

are you not being a bit extrem in your comparison? no one is saying not to socially distance, or give out infected masks to create herd imunity. not wearing a mask except when it really is beneficial does not equal handing out contaminated blankets imho.

It may have not made the news in Switzerland, but there are a lot of people *here* who are IN FACT against social distancing and isolation, and have appeared armed in the streets in support of making the lowest-paid workers go BACK to work NOW, because... nails... haircuts... ...and they are taking their cues from “the President”.

Not wearing a mask in public places while encountering others - or even simply preceding others in the space - I think *is* very much like the blanket example. Fair to remind that the smallpox in those blankets weren’t the only European disease to which native tribes had no immunity: those blankets were simply an exceptionally egregious example of the effect.

i think there is a risk to extrem fear and panic too. this thing still follows the laws of phisics even if it is scary and doctors are getting better at treating it. i try and remain positive and really hope it will not be as some have predicted, ie years of this fear and uncertainty. would our western civilizaion hold up if this were to go on for the rest of the year or even longer?

I’ve been impressed by the absence of of panic and fear: those who can’t stand to go along with anything (our armed protesters against public safety, specifically) are probably more fearful that those taking the recommended steps. Other than that, I mostly see “positive thinkers” blocking their friends and family while screaming “I! AM!! HEALTHY!!!”...but that never catches on, thankfully.

It will certainly take worse than this to bring down “civilization” but the world economy has been a global exercise in slavery-by-proxy for a very long time...and if THAT doesn’t survive this, I’ll have few tears to shed.

H.h is just being his typical self and comparing modern day anti-maskers to the early American settlers that handed out small pox infected blankets to the native Americans to kill them off.

And quite right to do so.

gaiusmarius;

A couple of things jumped into my thoughts reading through the exchange between you and hh.

Your point about 25 years of debt. Just think about this, Every capitalist [and maybe communist and socialist too] country in the world is in debt. Overwhelming debt. How absurd this is. How can this be possible? Who owns the debt? One or two families AKA The Deep State? The Cosa Nostra? The Triads? The Yakuza?

Baseless currency is printed as required.

Debt is a meaningless concept outside of me being in debt to my neighbor for helping me or sharing potatoes. What a ridiculous structure we have created.

The example of the blankets laden with smallpox or just indigenous peoples' exposure to it is actually a good example of how herd immunity could fail badly for a large swath of the population.

hh makes a good point that someone perfectly healthy in appearance can be a carrier spreading disease everywhere they go.

That “debt” is “owed” because we have an economic system designed by and for those who own (or control) nations, peoples,industries: it was intended to help them *maintain* social control by sucking up the labor value of the underpaid and overworked. Equitable sharing of the fruits of those labors was and still is to be prevented, not enabled. It is a reward system for the rulers: it is abused as needed to achieve that purpose. Everything else is a sales pitch.

The number of dead for any given time stays the same. The tested rate of infection goes up.

Another reason for multiple testing. The more we know, the less paranoid we need to be. The more we can open up.

We can’t open up safely AND stupidly, which *is*what we’re doing, so I’m guessing the Powers are hoping for this to get out of control In time to disrupt the upcoming election. Locally, we have “strong supporters of the president” Republicans running against “never-trumper” Republicans, and bringing all the scorched earth they can arrange, and you know not ONE of them works a shift job, and have maybe never worked a shift job in their lives (except maybe during summer vacation, for a family friend).

Personally, I’d like few things better that to be able to safely return to my work. Needing the money (which I do) is not as important to me. I’ve been rich-ish, and I’ve been extremely poor, so I have plenty of practice with making do and doing without.

 

[White Beard]

why are you so hesitant to draw the logical conclusion from these serology studies. if we don't play around with words and just look at the maths it has to be way less deadly then we thought if we are now finding way more people have had it then previously assumed. if we go from 3.2 mortality to now 0.3 we can safely say its way less deadly then we thought. thats just plain logic and maths.

I mentioned that these were assays and not studies; here’s what I mean by that: they were/are random blood tests specific to certain explicit locales; they can only inform us about THOSE locales at THAT time. They cant be meaningfully or accurately or usefully extrapolated to a larger population. That’s what scientific studies are for: to generate the kind of data that CAN be usefully extrapolated. To draw “logical conclusions” about the disease as a whole in ALL the places, with ALL the people, based on a few local snapshots, is not actually logical, nor scientifically sound.

Studies are planned: studies will select subjects so as to include a cross-section of the population, economic, social, racial, and other demographic groups, and they will sample from larger populations to confirm or correct distortions that may be introduced by a sample size that is too restricted to provide a gauge for the larger population.

Studies are intended to discover certain things and are planned accordingly. From what I know about the Santa Clara assay, it was a spontaneous effort to check patients at random, and not a focused effort to gain a picture that *COULD* be meaningfully extrapolated to the larger population. That makes it informative, and useful, and a spur to focused research...but it DID NOT provide data that could be taken from a couple thousand people in one small part of one California county and “mathematically enlarged” to provide meaningful inferences about the population as a whole - which is massively more diverse in nearly every way. The NY serology is likely to be similar: we don’t know to what extent the assayed population form a statistically useful data core.

I have heard of other, similar efforts, and the only logical conclusions I see as justified are that the spread, locally, is far beyond official projections, that a surprising number of exposed individuals displayed antibodies, and that more extensive, more complete, more scientifically rigorous testing is absolutely called for. To interpret them as “proof” that numbers are “going down“ is only a step away from the Trump fantasy that “soon it will be down to zero”.

In short, I don’t arrive at your conclusions because IMO the data does not support such conclusions. I think jumping to conclusions about the future of Covid based on random serological surveys is about as dangerous and foolish as anything we could do.

Personally, I lost my affection for wishful thinking a long time ago: it simply fucks things up, as my three failed marriages and one failed parenting effort will attest. There WILL be studies, as the serology displays the need for them - and as I already knew there would need to be. I’ll wait for them; until then, I will stay away from bars, bowling alleys, nail & hair salons, restaurants, concerts, etc. I’ll make what trips I must make, I will do so masked and gloved, I will keep my distance, I will clean up after myself when I return. As I am the only one of five who ever cleans ANYTHING in this place, I’ll be sensibly thorough, and then not worry about it beyond generally keeping the filth under control, as usual. There’s plenty of food, I’m an excellent cook, and I occasionally can get the kitchen for a bit; I like my own company, and I can often tune the others out entirely...so I’ll stay calm and make do. Just like the last nine weeks.

But I type a lot more these days than I did...which gives me almost a Rohrschach moment (“The Watchmen) regarding who’s stuck where, and with whom

 

[gaiusmarius]

I mentioned that these were assays and not studies; here’s what I mean by that: they were/are random blood tests specific to certain explicit locales; they can only inform us about THOSE locales at THAT time. They cant be meaningfully or accurately or usefully extrapolated to a larger population. That’s what scientific studies are for: to generate the kind of data that CAN be usefully extrapolated. To draw “logical conclusions” about the disease as a whole in ALL the places, with ALL the people, based on a few local snapshots, is not actually logical, nor scientifically sound.

Studies are planned: studies will select subjects so as to include a cross-section of the population, economic, social, racial, and other demographic groups, and they will sample from larger populations to confirm or correct distortions that may be introduced by a sample size that is too restricted to provide a gauge for the larger population.

Studies are intended to discover certain things and are planned accordingly. From what I know about the Santa Clara assay, it was a spontaneous effort to check patients at random, and not a focused effort to gain a picture that *COULD* be meaningfully extrapolated to the larger population. That makes it informative, and useful, and a spur to focused research...but it DID NOT provide data that could be taken from a couple thousand people in one small part of one California county and “mathematically enlarged” to provide meaningful inferences about the population as a whole - which is massively more diverse in nearly every way. The NY serology is likely to be similar: we don’t know to what extent the assayed population form a statistically useful data core.

I have heard of other, similar efforts, and the only logical conclusions I see as justified are that the spread, locally, is far beyond official projections, that a surprising number of exposed individuals displayed antibodies, and that more extensive, more complete, more scientifically rigorous testing is absolutely called for. To interpret them as “proof” that numbers are “going down“ is only a step away from the Trump fantasy that “soon it will be down to zero”.

In short, I don’t arrive at your conclusions because IMO the data does not support such conclusions. I think jumping to conclusions about the future of Covid based on random serological surveys is about as dangerous and foolish as anything we could do.

Personally, I lost my affection for wishful thinking a long time ago: it simply fucks things up, as my three failed marriages and one failed parenting effort will attest. There WILL be studies, as the serology displays the need for them - and as I already knew there would need to be. I’ll wait for them; until then, I will stay away from bars, bowling alleys, nail & hair salons, restaurants, concerts, etc. I’ll make what trips I must make, I will do so masked and gloved, I will keep my distance, I will clean up after myself when I return. As I am the only one of five who ever cleans ANYTHING in this place, I’ll be sensibly thorough, and then not worry about it beyond generally keeping the filth under control, as usual. There’s plenty of food, I’m an excellent cook, and I occasionally can get the kitchen for a bit; I like my own company, and I can often tune the others out entirely...so I’ll stay calm and make do. Just like the last nine weeks.

But I type a lot more these days than I did...which gives me almost a Rohrschach moment (“The Watchmen) regarding who’s stuck where, and with whom

there have been many studies done, and the study in Switzerland was done with a whole system to get a complete picture of our population. even today the presidents told us we can continue the opening, numbers are continueing to get better, they are even announcing an end to the lockdown of elderly. its not announced yet but the adviser Koch said that they are about to announce it. so yeah, i don't give 2 fuck what trump says or not. i feel you are partly blinded by your problems with the excuse for a president you have. you have to realize, he might just be lucky. even a blind chicken finds a corn some times. even rstaurants can open in 3 days, 4 people pro table with 2 meters between tables and everyone has to leave a contacts with the rstaurant in case any contact tracing will be needed. but even that is not mandatory. i can tell you, our gov is very risk averse and things are not done rashly and they are most certainly not trying to help Trump. if they are opening up the nation its because the best available science and concrete numbers from hospitals and testing facilities.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Wow, this thread blew up quick... It's a shame to see such a huge gap in opinions between those who think and those who simply repeat the media.