WTF is w/feminized genetics,

[JackTheGrower]

bro,,,,here is your main problem with your understanding,,,,,,,,,,feminization is a Tool!,,,,,it causes no probblems by itself!!,,,,,,,selections cause the problems,,,,real cashcrops are designed for for niche enviroments,,,,,,,,,not all lines will work in all enviroments,,the Y cromozone is an anomaly ,,,,some consider it to be "Novel",,,,,,and yes by crossing a XY chromozone plant to an XX chromozone plant you will get XY chromozone seeds,,,,

but its actualy harder to avoid intersexed traits when working XY line than it is with working from an XX line

In Rereading this thread from start to finish I feel this is the closest to the truth from what I can tell.

It seems that our selection of genetics determines the results.
It seems the only way to know what you have is to grow it out.

Since I have seen Seeds made with a hermaphrodite and a feminized create years worth of feminized and stable plants female plants I know that even the biggest full blown hermi can generate seeds that produce all female and hermi-less buds.
I also know that the S1 of that Hermi crossed with the F1 ( hermi x feminized ) produced produce all male plants ( all 5 grown were male). So I see a mystery i know I will be working on for a while. But Thank you and everyone here for the effort.
I am sure many more reading have learned a lot of things.

We need the experienced folks and we need the absurd too LOL.

The question is will those male S1xF1 toss proper male pollen or would their pollen be all female? I should cross something and see..

I need a yard to grow in folks.. Someone adopt me please.



I'm one of the Absurd crowd I am sure.

 

[JackTheGrower]

I better put some hempa filtration on my room our I will get some dust on my buds. What im I saying I grow outdoors I forgot. lol

I made a double air filter carbon scrubber box. If you would like to see it I can send you pm pics.

BTW my eyes hurt and I am on page 20.

 

[JackTheGrower]

i got a male in some fem seeds once,,,,

coctail frank got a male in the same seedline,,,,,

i kept my fem-male thinking it was a mirical,,,,,,,after 8 months as a cutting,,,,i put it into an NFT system and boosted the silica,,,,,,,somehow this fem-male turned ALL FEMALE,,,,after 8 months screeming about a mirical , the mirical had vanished!!,,,,,,,i was stumped

GMT and charlesX told me it was an extreem hermi from day 1,,,,,,when it vanished i relized GMT had allready given the expanation,,,,,

but coctail frank used his male ,,,and his progeny split into 50/50 males and females,,

so ,,,the mirical is still alive

I have a hermi-seed plant that grows female then male then back to female naturally.
I got these genetics innocently from a Berkeley in 1999 from a medical shop.

Just thought I could share an observation.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Well I did it.. I re-read from start to finish.

I would think this party would be crazy to try and hang at but if there was a pool and some sexy chicks we all might have fun.

Thanks for all the input so far to everyone and I guess we ran off one breeder who knows things.. That's a sadness but I don't know the history.

Anyway Great thread even if I am needing ice over my eyes now.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Rick, yes I understand that bad karma of dissing a mans work, but I have to take exception to things that get included that are really more of a hurt to the sport, than a help. Is it kewl for a man to profit in providing bad info? And is it not fairly clear to hack laymen such as ourselves that the author is missing some very important facts, and is eluding to things that just aren't so?

stagger lee is really not at fault here, because he is obviously stating things the way that he read them. I read them the same way, thing is...it is clear to me that the author is still in the group of folks who do not have a full grasp of this concept.
Should faux praise be given to such work? I think not. Although I do agree that one would be on the lesser side of things to mount up a campaign against the book, but that is not what I am doing. I am only commenting on the passages shown. And I do stick to my guns on that part actually degrading the integrity of the book.
If other books are stating that environmental stress can cause a feminized seed to produce a male, they too are wrong. And again, if stamen are seen in those plants it is a result of the intersex gene expressing itself, which makes sense as the intersex gene is known to often remain latent, but show itself when triggered by environmental stress. The only way we can produce plants that carry the intersex gene at a lesser rate, is to select plants that do not show the propensity to hermie, and then breed these selected plants to each other. Repeating until a high rate of stability is reached. Having a basic grasp of mathematics also helps to understand the selection process and how the ratios of the genetic map work. Google "punnet square", stagger.
The selection scheme works for regular bred plants and feminized plants as well. No difference at all. All else is speculation and voodoo.

It seems that our selection of genetics determines the results.
It seems the only way to know what you have is to grow it out.

Bingo.

 

[Hammerhead]

I got me 7 fem seeds coming from the UFO this weekend good deal no lol

 

[englishrick]

i think your right hoos,,,,i honestly think it sounds like gregs not grasped half the concept "yet",,,

lee,,honestly man,,,i think its time for you to look ouside the box man,,,you probbly dont know me well enough but i am a real friend, i will never say anything negitive if i can help it,,,i am honestly here to help you an evey friend of canna,,,,,

please re-read tomhills posts,,,,,tomhill is on a higher level than greg green,,as you learn more you will be able to tell when someone is not graping some concepts proppely,,

that is my estimation,,

 

[Tom Hill]

Regarding Greg Green's comments....

Sex is ABSOLUTELY an inherited trait. Just because sexual expression can be modified by environment does not mean that this too is not inherited - it is. Whether these inherited modifying factors are located on the sex chromosomes themselves or on autosomes (or both) is a topic for debate and research not that it matters much. Sexual expression, in all of its possible manifestations, is absolutely inherited.


Stagger, Hempy, and ALL others who state things like "Feminized seeds are more likely to herm" have utterly failed -every single time- to connect those dots, it's a giant leap, a miscomprehention. We can and have given potential reasons why many seedlots may yield offspring with more intersexed traits. However, these reasons are not at all related to the breeding method as far as M/F vs forced reversal. These folks are reading into things from books and their own personal observations that just aren't there and never were imo. It happens.

 

[englishrick]

^^i agree ,,,,,,sex seems to be inherited!

inheritance is a matter of selection!

 

[Dalaihempy]

Regarding Greg Green's comments....

Sex is ABSOLUTELY an inherited trait. Just because sexual expression can be modified by environment does not mean that this too is not inherited - it is. Whether these inherited modifying factors are located on the sex chromosomes themselves or on autosomes is a topic for debate and research not that it matters much. Sexual expression, in all of its possible manifestations, is absolutely inherited.


Stagger, Hempy, and ALL others who state things like "Feminized seeds are more likely to herm" have utterly failed -every single time- to connect those dots, it's a giant leap, a miscomprehention. We can and have given potential reasons why many seedlots may yield offspring with more intersexed traits. However, these reasons are not at all related to the breeding method as far as M/F vs forced reversal. These folks are reading into things from books and their own personal observations that just aren't there and never were imo. It happens.

Tom to produce true pure female seeds you need to find a true female plant sounds od i thort so to but apparently not all female plants are true females i believe sam sed he has only 1 and to find one in every line is well not going to happen yet what testing has any one offering fem seeds done on finding pure females or even testing the seeds there selling minimal at best.

Here is some interesting reading tom.

Received: 5 December 1958
Summary Hemp (Cannabis sativa L.) was sown at intervals from November to August. For each sowing the time of flowering was recorded for male and female plants separately. Male plants usually flowered earlier than female. When the period of daylight exceeds 14 hours, that is when the days are lengthening in April, the female plants stop flowering and continue their vegetative growth. They start flowering again when the days are shortening considerably, in August, when the daylight period is about 15 hours. The male plants flower even when the day is longer than 14 hours.
In experiments during which the plants were shaded it was found that reduction of light intensity leads to an increase in the number of female plants, particularly if shading is carried out in the early stages of the plant's development.
The occurrence of intersexual plants was observed only during the short day period (11 to 13 hours), when they composed 22–30% of the total. When the day exceeds 13 hours intersexual plants no longer develop.
The grafting of plants of varying sex did not produce any sexual change—probably due to the fact that the period of vegetative approximation was short.




Received: 19 July 1936
Summary Out of all methods tried to produce a change in the sex of hemp, photoperiodism is the only one that has been successful.
Under the influence of a shortened day morphological and embryological alterations begin in the flowers. The first are expressed by the appearance of the anthers with three, five and six loculi and a sixth stamen.
The second deeper alterations lead to a complete sex transformation in that flower.
In the male tissue an ovule develops with its integuments and embryosac.
In the female flowers intense transformation also occurs changing entirely the parts constituting the embryo.


An Interview with Mr XX:

Female seed

Lately there has been a lot of fuss about 100% female seed.
Quite rightly, because this could be the big change in the world
of the growers. As you know, now it is possible to fill, without
(illegal) cuttings, the gardens with female plants, which
moreover as a seedling bring in more than the cuttings.
Highlife was able to be the first to publish pictures of this
miracle of technique and manipulation. But what is even more
interesting: we have an interview with the improver of these
plants, who will lift the veil and share with us the techniques
and materials who until now where only known by a handful of
people. This person is a devoted lover and has no need at all to
reverse his knowledge into stone-hard currencies. He is a man
with a vision and in his story is a message, as well for the
improvers of seed as for every blower in Holland. Because of
the discretion, we call the super freak ‘Mister XX’, what, in
view of the matter is a very appropriate name.



Highlife: ‘Dear XX, could you tell us what has driven you all
those years? Because it is such a complicated matter, it has cost
you lots of time and you encountered a lot of set-backs.’

Mister XX: ‘Indeed I was already experimenting for years, before
I got some results. But I am a kind of person who digs in the heels
of matters that interest me, certainly when the rest of the world
also has no solution for it. By all set-backs I suffered on the road,
the desire to succeed is getting stronger. The only disadvantage of
all those years of experimenting was, that it was nearly not
smokable. Belief me, this matter is for people who want to grow
their own smoke not recommendable. But luckily I got that phase
behind me.

Why did you work all those years at producing female seed, and
what will you do with it now you ‘cracked’ that formula?

My goal was to make of really potent XX plants minimal a natural
healthy quantity of female seed. When I, after ‘eternal’
experimenting, was ready, I began to cultivate this seed, to see if
it, after a while would decline. Then I discovered that the material
where I work with, was also useful to bloom more fully, in a
shorter period then we are used to. But, we will talk about that
later, because this is not so interesting for me. Certainly not,
because I will wizen up the breadgrower, who mostly use
pesticides and other stuff, just for the money. Because I belief the
chance is very small and because other people in this world where
marketing female seed, I did not want to keep this to the persons
who also where interested in these matters: in other words: I want
to pass that the stuff that I use, is free of poison and work very
well.

You have our complete interest, so tell your story and begin at the
beginning.

To produce XX seed, you need a 100% XX plant. To determine if
a plant really is pure and if this is a XX-plant, can not be too
difficult. To disturb the cycle regularly, by using light to recall
shockeffects, is a good method to commit hermaphrodites. It is
optimal if you, while shocking, give the some more CO2. But,
make sure that you give them in time trace elements. By all these
strange moves they use a lot of extra, especially magnesium, I
noticed. When you finally have one or more pure females, then
they will be the base of the improved species. But, look out,
because there are very liter pure XX plants, how strange this may
sound. Inattentive breeding in the past, with especially Asiatic
plants, have genetically in depth produced much hermaphrodites.
So, when a plant is not pure XX, the pollen can also not be pure
XX. This is very frustrating, because all the work has been for
nothing. But, if you have found a XX-plant, we go look further.
After years of experimenting and seeking, I was three years ago
able to cover the XX plant with it’s own dust. But it did not really
hurry up, because the length of the cycle was very disappointing to
the yield.


Most people would be very happy if they
would come this far, but we understand that
this was only the beginning for you.Yes, this
gave me a kick, but more like: ‘And now we
really get started!’. Now I can also solve
this problem. Today I can manipulate every
XX plant that I choose, as you can see on
the pictures.


You see a plant who is showing on three branches, three different
kind of inflorescences. It is a strange and unusual sight, but very
exiting to me. Because this was for met the way to good and
potent female seed. But also (this appeared later) the way to a 30
to 40% more and full bloom of the ladies, and a shorter
blossom-time of almost a week. With this I demonstrated the
possibility of the plant to treat one ore more branches different.
As you can see, I can take care of full bunches of male flowers in
a XX-flower, who is producing a lot of pollen.
If one ore more full sisters of these plant are in full bloom, put
this manipulated plant between them for fertilization. Now the
fertilization will take place only if the plants has full blooming
tops, and that will give you lots of seed. Only a plant with some
big bunches of male-flowers can fertilize a big room of plants.

This was a nice story but the question stays how to get those male
flowers in that plant. We have waited long enough, now we want to
now what means you use. Go right ahead!

I want to tell you a lot, but not everything. There are different
materials where you can manipulate with. The material I have
chosen for is GIBBERALIC ACID, that is also known as the
German name GIBBERELLINSAURE. But at this moment there
are five different performances of Gibberalic and there is a big
chance that the producer has other compositions. The reason I
have chosen for this, is because I let it tested by Dr. Alink,, a
toxicologist from Wageningen. The result I got in writing n it says
black on white that it is harmless for man or animal. This test is
executed without questions or any opposition, what says that it is
possible for everyone to test materials on harmfulness. So, in
other words, we can work much harmful as we all know. And it
costs: nothing!
Gibberalic Acid is harmful on its own. It is strange that the
material has not been added on the list of pesticides who are not
allowed in nature.

But you can spray Gibberalic on the plants?

No, that would be very easy. First you have to dissolve it. To
dissolve a synthetic acid as Gibberalic is a story at itself. Now I
use Natriumhydroxide, a very aggressive material what is used as a
purgative. Natriumhydroxide solves very easily and it is not
toxicological not dangerous. To find the right proportion is the
next question. Then you find out that the condition of the plant
sometimes asks for a specific proportion, who deviates to far
behind the comma. If you can not weigh to specific, than it is not
going to work out. It is that accurate. The difference in doses are
so small, that making it is more than a precise job. A pharmacist
as a friend will be very useful, but he also can weigh at 0,05
grams. But especially choosing the right moment is the biggest
problem.

If all these things are right, then it is just a matter of spraying, and
ready we are, I mean Mr. XX is.

Yes, that is true. Surely reality is far more complicated but I lifted
a big piece of the veil. I did this because I think that all blowing
people in Holland are entitled to know what is happening. So, here
I give a piece of my experiences in these matters. I hope that the
people who are busy manipulating will test the materials they use
in toxicological values. This is free of charge and the
examinatiors don’t ask annoying questions. For me it is the only
way to inform people in which materials you use, those which are
mentioned on the package. The time that growers and improvers
had to work with poisoned materials such as Colchicine, is really
long gone.

So far the story of an interesting and driven person who, without
any financial meaning wants to share his knowledge and wants to
warn against the dangers of the use of pesticides. After this
interview, we got a handful of seeds to try out. We keep in touch
about this project.

N.B. The Amsterdam cannabisseedcompany ‘Dutch Passion’ is the
only company in the world which will sell female seed. It is not
strange that we questioned them how to use poisoned
spraying-materials. Owner Henk van Dalen says: We also tested
Gibberalic acid. In the market garden it is a common material.
Gibberalic acid is a hormone and stimulates in a very small way
the male bloom and has for the growing of the plant unfortunate
side-effects. We do not use hormones at all, because the plants
are acting strange. The material we use is a simple chemical
material, you can think of a salt solution and is absolutely free of
poisoned materials.


Not trying to be right here or have i tried to make any one look bad but the reality is female seeds sold by most are producing hermies and males the crap i have read by some in here like indoor plants suffer more stress than out door grown plants was just pathetic and typical of what i would expect from some in here and across the boards.

So as it stands to have true fem seeds you need a pure female now if sam has only one as i rember reading in a post from him how many of the fem seed producers do to.

 

[Buffoonman]

Plants outside are less likely to hermie as it is a natural enviroment, indoors your more likely to mess up the light cycle the room may get to silly temps and generally the plants are forced to there limits of course there has to be hermie tendencies to start with. There just less likely to show oudoors. I find the same genetics even smell and taste different when grown outdoors. For some reason they tend to smell more fruity grown outside. This is from my personal experience.

 

[Dalaihempy]

Plants outside are less likely to hermie as it is a natural enviroment, indoors your more likely to mess up the light cycle the room may get to silly temps and generally the plants are forced to there limits of course there has to be hermie tendencies to start with. There just less likely to show oudoors. I find the same genetics even smell and taste different when grown outdoors. For some reason they tend to smell more fruity grown outside. This is from my personal experience.

Your indoor grow room should mimic out door conditions it has no weeds no pests and so on it has many positive advantages and you as a grower have the job to make sure you give your plants the best environment.

I could sit here and post up all the stress factors of out door growing but why do i need to there is no point one fact few relies is how hardy a cannabis plant really is they grow in all environments and even after they have been slammed by a wild storm bounce back and thrive so to say indoor growing is more stressful is just an excuse for those looking to explane why some fem seeds have hermied if your plants are herming out doors look at your genetics.

 

[Kangativa]

"if your plants are herming out doors look at your genetics"

So true Hempy, I have ripped 5ft plants out of the ground stuck them in water and then later put them back in the ground.....No hermies, I have seen them smashed by huge hail, knocked down by flood waters, smashed by cows and never had one hermie......Now that is true stress and those plants include Thai strains.....so as Hempy says if it hermies it is in the genetics.

Interesting read mate.

 

[Texicannibus]

I think if your plants are hermi its always look at the genetics. Indoor, outdoor, feminized, non-feminized, female... Its been repeated many times. There is no proof that feminization process (induced hermi) can increase propensity to produce male parts. This is only a perception held by some with no verifiable scientific evidence. I agree with hoosier, Tom, Simon (serious seeds) and the many others who have said they do not believe the feminization process modifies the risk of hermaphrodites.

 

[Kangativa]

Ok so we all agree that it is all in the genetics......so we are also finding people are complaining of getting Hermies in their female seeds, I do not know the percentages but I have seen a few people complain on different sites.....Now here is my question, does that mean when a breeder says he is selling 100% female seeds is it the honest truth and does he honestly know if hermies are in the genetics.
Please I am having a honest discussion here and after honest answers and do not want to start a shit fight

 

[Texicannibus]

Ok so we all agree that it is all in the genetics......so we are also finding people are complaining of getting Hermies in their female seeds, I do not know the percentages but I have seen a few people complain on different sites.....Now here is my question, does that mean when a breeder says he is selling 100% female seeds is it the honest truth and does he honestly know if hermies are in the genetics.
Please I am having a honest discussion here and after honest answers and do not want to start a shit fight

No worries here this to me is simply a difference in opinion not a fight. Although some have taken to insults I wont.

First of all yes it is all the genetics. Secondly to understand what I am talking about some definitions must be had. Female seed is a seed produced by a hermi proned plant. These are often called 'bagseed' or 'female seeds'. A feminized seed is produced by a plant that has been forced to hemaphrodite through chemicals that mimic the natural stress response of hemaphroditism.

You should expect to find hermis in 'female seed' but if 'feminized seed' is properly stress tested it should be as solid as 'normal seed' that is properly stress tested. Any seed has some propensity to hemaphrodite for the most part as has been stated by most of our observations. There is a mythical 'true female' but Ive yet to see one personally. This would be a plant thats thresh-hold for stress before hemaphroditism sets in kills the plant. Thus a plant that simply cannot hermi.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

hoosierdaddy is basically correct about inter-sex genes, and how they can be inherited from either straight male X female crosses or via feminized, female X female crosses.
Eliminate all inter-sex genes of which there could be many different versions, with some maybe set off by specific environmental stress requirements, and you will find the progeny are inter-sex free, regardless if male and female or all female.

Or try using heavily intersexed parents, say a hermi Thai female and a male that shows female flowers. Pick ones that don't even require stress to show intersex flowers. Cross them to make seeds, male and female (with lots of intersex genes) now grow out the progeny with no environmental stress, what percentage of the plants turn intersexed?
Is this just by chance?
Intersex traits are inheritable.
-SamS

 

[superbolan]

Sometimes the noblest thing you can do is to agree to disagree

 

[Tom Hill]

Hempy,

Forget about "true" female as that term seems to have only served to further confuse folks. "Strongly" female seems a more appropriate term >>> Define this as a "female" plant that has a noted absence/lack of modifier genes that have the ability under certain environmental cues to alter the final phenotypic expression - regarding sexuality.

Thank you for weighing-in Sam. -T

 

[Kangativa]

No worries here this to me is simply a difference in opinion not a fight. Although some have taken to insults I wont.

First of all yes it is all the genetics. Secondly to understand what I am talking about some definitions must be had. Female seed is a seed produced by a hermi proned plant. These are often called 'bagseed' or 'female seeds'. A feminized seed is produced by a plant that has been forced to hemaphrodite through chemicals that mimic the natural stress response of hemaphroditism.

You should expect to find hermis in 'female seed' but if 'feminized seed' is properly stress tested it should be as solid as 'normal seed' that is properly stress tested. Any seed has some propensity to hemaphrodite for the most part as has been stated by most of our observations. There is a mythical 'true female' but Ive yet to see one personally. This would be a plant thats thresh-hold for stress before hemaphroditism sets in kills the plant. Thus a plant that simply cannot hermi.

Thanx for all that.......One more question, how do you properly stress test a plant ??
As for a true female.....I have seen plants go through hell and never Hermie, but it has always been in a outdoor inviroment.