Who's for Euthanasing Themselves?

[I'mback]

It's important to make one while you're healthy because if you're a vegetable, or simply can't communicate, you're in for the long haul.

Yup!

I have short term memory lost since the 1st Gulf War where we had to take the pill. The pill didn't affect everyone but I can tell you it didn't discriminate wrt age. My affliction might have been triggered by the Alzheimer gene. Found out after the fact, father passed in 2006 dad had it as well as polluted with cancer. Since an autopsy wasn't required, the family never requested one.

When it comes to the big C, my wife supports my wishes to let the disease run its course. e.g they aren't going to poison me with "their" shit and make me die that much sooner. I remember my back door neighbour agonizing through the summer (chemo). He was told in Aug, passed in Feb. Euthanasia wasn't legal back then.

Prolonging life with machines (on machines) is not life! I am not a religious man perse but, if God is no longer providing me with the means to live, then who are doctors to go against his wishes!

 

[TychoMonolyth]

This is the exact opposite. I kinda like it.

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

From The Poems of Dylan Thomas

 

[moose eater]

Thanks Tycho; still reputation-bare here.

I've often played with the notion that our energy is like a bank account; we're born with X amount, and how fast we burn through that, will play a hand in determining how long it takes to become a burden to simply get out of bed in the morning.

All 4 of my family of origin members died by their own hands, while 1 of the 4 was technically deemed as an 'undetermined' cause of death in the end.

And my younger brother, I believe, did not shoot himself, despite the determination of 'suicide,' but was likely shot by his room-mate. I have cause to believe that.

My mother's 'undetermined' cause of death, resulted from my brother putting pressure on the medical examiner, but the manner in which she presented when she was found, told me it had likely been intentional.

The first, my father, died in 1968, and the last, my sister, died in 2001. My brother died on my mother's b-day in '94, and my mother, around Thanksgiving '93. There'd been tensions between everyone to one degree or another.

Unresolved conflict, post mortem, becomes a one-sided conversation, unless a person gets creative.

I spent time in mental health, working as a licensed clinician, and never lost a single client to suicide, working in numerous areas of the State; not for lack of having clients trying. As I told another forum member recently, there was 'dark irony' in that. And room for self-deprecating gallows humor, too.

I fretted being on-call toward the end of my MH career, worried that I might fuck up, and there'd be another body in my history. That I might miss something, and not be there when it counted. I had a number of folks considering or attempting suicide who were clients of mine at that time. Some of whom I would encounter later, in other settings, with no words between us, other than for both of us to identify each other, based on facial expression, and go our ways.

For my family members, I resolved, over the years, that I forgave them for their choices, but eventually came to emphasize for myself that they were, indeed, THEIR choices, and their right to make them.. My mantra became, "No one owns another's path."

For my clients, I would often approach this from the perspective of telling many/some of them that philosophically, I believed they had a moral right to choose, but that I was being paid to help them to review how thoroughly they'd considered this, and in the end, from an admitted, somewhat mercenary position, to encourage them to see what tomorrow might bring.

When I was in Oz, my host told me a story of a fellow who'd built the H2O pipe from Perth to Kalgoolorie (spelling?), and had his reputation ruined, going from a respected person, to later being seen as a con-man. Humiliated, and rejected over the pipe not flowing after all the investments, he'd reportedly ridden his horse out into the tide flats near Perth, and shot himself.

The story went that the very next day, the water flowed through the pipe to its destination.

Reminded me of a former friend's routine stating of an old adage, "What a difference a day makes."

I determined years ago that it was a violation of the Cosmos to get involved in another's walk, unless absolutely welcomed into it. And even then, there's karma to pay.

This last few weeks, I was notified that a childhood friend's father, who was near 90, and who had attempted to over-dose, had attempted to shoot himself, etc., and was quite clear in wanting to end his suffering, had gone out a fifth story window, and resolved his dilemma in a fairly dramatic manner.

Contrasting that outcome, to the video posted by MedFaced, and it's easily concluded that what we assume is civilized, really sometimes isn't.

Still, even in legal assisted-suicide states in this Country, we differentiate between those with terminal illness, versus those who have had decades of psychological torment, inescapable delusions, hallucinations, fears, horror in the night, years of broken sleep and accompanying exhaustion, and more, and having tried some of them on MANY different psychotropic meds, at some point seeming as though Docs were tossing darts at a board with drug names on it, the numbers of which, would blow your mind, we insist that we cannot identify in an x-ray or MRI the condition, and quantify it as this or that, organically, therefore we insist they remain in suffering, even when they've contended with such things for many years, without relief.

My black-listing in '98 was met with mixed reviews on my end; it sucks to be rejected, but I truly never want to be responsible for another's choices in life ever again. I'll lend a hand when asked, but some ultimate choices or for each of us alone.

To go peacefully to sleep, as in MedFaced's video, or suffer botched gunshot wounds with a number of outcomes, dive out windows, or over-dose on drugs that don't complete the desired outcomes, leaving some brain-dead, & on life-support in many cases.

But the 'God gave you life, and we honor it so much that we will MAKE you carry on,' or "I'm afraid of death, and so you have to be too' crowds, rarely have to clean up those messes.

 

[TychoMonolyth]

It's a difficult choice to make. If you hold your hand over fire, your brain will take over to protect the body. With some people, the brain betrays the body and suicide is the result. Confounds me.

 

[moose eater]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1tRB7-aBr8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EodytPmki5s

 

[I'mback]

Thanks Tycho; still reputation-bare here.

I've often played with the notion that our energy is like a bank account; we're born with X amount, and how fast we burn through that, will play a hand in determining how long it takes to become a burden to simply get out of bed in the morning.

All 4 of my family of origin members died by their own hands, while 1 of the 4 was technically deemed as an 'undetermined' cause of death in the end.

And my younger brother, I believe, did not shoot himself, despite the determination of 'suicide,' but was likely shot by his room-mate. I have cause to believe that.

My mother's 'undetermined' cause of death, resulted from my brother putting pressure on the medical examiner, but the manner in which she presented when she was found, told me it had likely been intentional.

The first, my father, died in 1968, and the last, my sister, died in 2001. My brother died on my mother's b-day in '94, and my mother, around Thanksgiving '93. There'd been tensions between everyone to one degree or another.

Unresolved conflict, post mortem, becomes a one-sided conversation, unless a person gets creative.

I spent time in mental health, working as a licensed clinician, and never lost a single client to suicide, working in numerous areas of the State; not for lack of having clients trying. As I told another forum member recently, there was 'dark irony' in that. And room for self-deprecating gallows humor, too.

I fretted being on-call toward the end of my MH career, worried that I might fuck up, and there'd be another body in my history. That I might miss something, and not be there when it counted. I had a number of folks considering or attempting suicide who were clients of mine at that time. Some of whom I would encounter later, in other settings, with no words between us, other than for both of us to identify each other, based on facial expression, and go our ways.

For my family members, I resolved, over the years, that I forgave them for their choices, but eventually came to emphasize for myself that they were, indeed, THEIR choices, and their right to make them.. My mantra became, "No one owns another's path."

For my clients, I would often approach this from the perspective of telling many/some of them that philosophically, I believed they had a moral right to choose, but that I was being paid to help them to review how thoroughly they'd considered this, and in the end, from an admitted, somewhat mercenary position, to encourage them to see what tomorrow might bring.

When I was in Oz, my host told me a story of a fellow who'd built the H2O pipe from Perth to Kalgoolorie (spelling?), and had his reputation ruined, going from a respected person, to later being seen as a con-man. Humiliated, and rejected over the pipe not flowing after all the investments, he'd reportedly ridden his horse out into the tide flats near Perth, and shot himself.

The story went that the very next day, the water flowed through the pipe to its destination.

Reminded me of a former friend's routine stating of an old adage, "What a difference a day makes."

I determined years ago that it was a violation of the Cosmos to get involved in another's walk, unless absolutely welcomed into it. And even then, there's karma to pay.

This last few weeks, I was notified that a childhood friend's father, who was near 90, and who had attempted to over-dose, had attempted to shoot himself, etc., and was quite clear in wanting to end his suffering, had gone out a fifth story window, and resolved his dilemma in a fairly dramatic manner.

Contrasting that outcome, to the video posted by MedFaced, and it's easily concluded that what we assume is civilized, really sometimes isn't.

Still, even in legal assisted-suicide states in this Country, we differentiate between those with terminal illness, versus those who have had decades of psychological torment, inescapable delusions, hallucinations, fears, horror in the night, years of broken sleep and accompanying exhaustion, and more, and having tried some of them on MANY different psychotropic meds, at some point seeming as though Docs were tossing darts at a board with drug names on it, the numbers of which, would blow your mind, we insist that we cannot identify in an x-ray or MRI the condition, and quantify it as this or that, organically, therefore we insist they remain in suffering, even when they've contended with such things for many years, without relief.

My black-listing in '98 was met with mixed reviews on my end; it sucks to be rejected, but I truly never want to be responsible for another's choices in life ever again. I'll lend a hand when asked, but some ultimate choices or for each of us alone.

To go peacefully to sleep, as in MedFaced's video, or suffer botched gunshot wounds with a number of outcomes, dive out windows, or over-dose on drugs that don't complete the desired outcomes, leaving some brain-dead, & on life-support in many cases.

But the 'God gave you life, and we honor it so much that we will MAKE you carry on,' or "I'm afraid of death, and so you have to be too' crowds, rarely have to clean up those messes.

This is getting really heavy. Anguish I believe the word is, but please correct me if I am wrong.

Pain is pain whether it be physical or mental. Who are we, to decide how much pain should a person bare.

I will not try to fathom what teenagers are going through these days. I am not making excuses but... it is not the future is bright ahead I gotta wear shades!

I enjoyed MedFace's video. Not because I have a dark side but, because of the compassion shown from those who attended, reminded me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pF6AliryYE my wife was wispering in her hear and petting the head while I comforted her as well rubbing her belly.

An extremely controversial subject nonetheless, without simple answers.

Wrt the Harrison Ford clip, that is no different than the 70's movie ~ (can't remember the name) where you were zapped at 35. That is societal genocide, nothing more.

 

[TychoMonolyth]

...
Wrt the Harrison Ford clip, that is no different than the 70's movie ~ (can't remember the name) where you were zapped at 35. That is societal genocide, nothing more.

Logan's Run was the movie.
[iframe1]USADM5Gk9Gs[/iframe1]

 

[St. Phatty]

Does paddling out at Maverick's on your 70th birthday count ?

 

[TychoMonolyth]

lol

 

[moose eater]

I agree, I'mback.

There's less physical evidence in the 'scope' to determine who has how much emotional pain or horror, versus physical ailments, and identifiable physical disease.

The tight-rope is in helping someone to ask themselves whether or not tomorrow might not be better, and if they have the energy or will or belief to wait and see. The fellow who killed himself in the tide flats near Perth is an example of the 'what if he'd waited just ONE more day?" And despite the inherent tragedy in what I view as a premature decision, it was still his life to take.

Who says how much is enough?

Collectively we criticize or judge the worthiness and reasoning of those who take their own lives, through what ever means. Lives they own and control. But we're prone to standing by and watch television while armies, at the request or mandate of governments claiming to represent us, kill others, taking lives by the thousands that they DON'T own, and DON'T have a right to control.

I think we're very confused at times, re. our own boundaries; what is mine, and what is not?

In my world (and I struggle with this a lot, especially at or near the end of a primary relationship), our emotional investment in another doesn't license us to take ownership of that other's course. Only to experience our pain or happiness as we observe that other's life or death. And our emotions are OURS to deal with, just as their sense of life is theirs.

That's what my heart and mind tells me, anyway.

Yes, the woman in the film is, in my mind, an angel. And how well balanced of a human being to recognize and accept in such a Zen manner that death is as much a part of living, as living is of death; the inseparable Yin & Yang. Her stroking the woman's hair and whispering calmness to her.. I cried.. Not in sadness, but for the beauty, the journey there, the end of the road in this realm, my own experiences with death, as well as the acceptance, and utmost support given to someone meeting their Earthly end, without apparent fear, to what ever comes next, head on, "eyes to the Sun."

I got my wife out of bed to watch that last night. She holds my hand when I get weepy. ;^>)

I would never support a governmental determination of who should live or die. They will never earn that right with me. They've fucked up too much. But a personal decision, by the involved party? That has my support all day long, despite the sadness that can come with that choice..

 

[moose eater]

It's a difficult choice to make. If you hold your hand over fire, your brain will take over to protect the body. With some people, the brain betrays the body and suicide is the result. Confounds me.

Tycho, in social change and activism, as well as in MH work, 'we' used to say something along the lines of, "change will occur when the pain of not changing, outweighs the pain of changing."

The hand over the flame functions via a nerve reacting, carrying a message to the brain that an immediate source of discomfort needs to be avoided. Reflexively, unless there is nerve damage, the arm/hand retracts.

If the flame brought less pain than being away from the flame, then we would likely witness the hand/arm moving in the other direction.

With the forms of suffering in discussion, there's more time to contemplate the choices and variables.

One part of the very real seriousness in this question is that there are no second chances when done effectively.

Peace to you and yours.

 

[I'mback]

Logan's Run was the movie.
[iframe1]USADM5Gk9Gs[/iframe1]

That would be the one

 

[Teddybrae]

Yes Captain ... do you mean you'd like the Crocodile to be your means to your end? That would be crushed to death ... or drowned.

Nup! Altho the excitement/fear would be INTENSE!

That sounds pretty fucking nuts. I would probably want to be put down quickly if I was suffering too much though, not really a party, can't have a good time if you're that bad.

I'd prefer to do the partying before I'm bed ridden in a hospital, though I'd probably kill my self doing some crazy shit before the cancer.

Talking Australia, shit I'd be jumping on crocks like Steve Irwin crazy shit. Lol

 

[Teddybrae]

I started this evening meaning to comment on a few posts and was astonished to find six pages of comment!
Thank you Everyone. Sorry if I have not repped you all but I just ate some White widow cookie and must go and lie down now ...


Where are you Pommy bastids? It's daytime now where you are ... !

 

[Gypsy Nirvana]

This Pommy bastid is in attendance - lol

- and this thread is gorgeous - in a morbid sort of way - but lets face it chaps - there is only one certainty in life - and that's death - so its good to talk about it - and prepare for it - if we can.

I started this evening meaning to comment on a few posts and was astonished to find six pages of comment!
Thank you Everyone. Sorry if I have not repped you all but I just ate some White widow cookie and must go and lie down now ...


Where are you Pommy bastards? It's daytime now where you are ... !

 

[TychoMonolyth]

Yes Captain ... do you mean you'd like the Crocodile to be your means to your end? That would be crushed to death ... or drowned.

Nup! Altho the excitement/fear would be INTENSE!

Thinking about it, going out in the most adrenaline filled way would be cool. I mean, you only live once and it would be a shame to not fill your human experience box to the brim.

 

[EsterEssence]

I am putting in my last will that I want to be euthanized, either when I become an invalid human or have Alzheimer’s and no quality of life. My Dad died from bed sores, not knowing who he was, I know that he would not of wanted to go that way but my Christian step mom wouldn’t do it. I will make the decision either by will or when the quality of life gets so uncomfortable I can’t deal with it anymore...

 

[I'mback]

I am putting in my last will that I want to be euthanized, either when I become an invalid human or have Alzheimer’s and no quality of life. My Dad died from bed sores, not knowing who he was, I know that he would not of wanted to go that way but my Christian step mom wouldn’t do it. I will make the decision either by will or when the quality of life gets so uncomfortable I can’t deal with it anymore...

If it isn't in there NOW, I would get on with it. You can always change your mind but, at the start of each will... being of sound mind and body... It has to be on record prior to the fact!

 

[moose eater]

I was escorting my daughter back from another part of the State a few years back, in the colder part of later winter, and she brought up my signing a DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) order as a of part of my living will.

I'd spoken about it in the past, and had stated that if debilitated to the point of it being moot to keep on breathing, I didn't want them spending shit-tons of money on me, and wasting a meager estate on perpetuating nothingness..

But that was balanced with my having an obligation to spend time with our youngest, straggler child, my younger son, with whom I do a number of things, including taking him on adventures, to places I regard as special, often into the bush. It was, in my mind, dependent upon the degree of disability. And admittedly, a wavering attitude on my part toward life in general.

So without the nuances of refining the 'shades of difference' between this condition or that, and her, being an RN, asking me, maybe subtly pressuring me, to sign a DNR, I sensed what I perceived, rightly or not, to be some sort of inordinate pressure..

Then a handful of miles further down the road, working her way, perhaps too quickly, into, "You know, I'd kind of like to have the house." While knowing there's 2 other off-spring in our family, and one of them has gone above and beyond to remain involved in our lives, interests, etc.; my younger son.

The remainder of the drive was a fair bit more quiet.

Again, we often have difficulties reminding ourselves of our own boundaries.

 

[armedoldhippy]

I started this evening meaning to comment on a few posts and was astonished to find six pages of comment!
Thank you Everyone. Sorry if I have not repped you all but I just ate some White widow cookie and must go and lie down now ...


Where are you Pommy bastards? It's daytime now where you are ... !

actually, it just got dark enough for the local fireworks show here. luckily, i can see them from patio whilst smoking my last bowl...until tomorrow!