What Male to use in a cross?
- Thread starter groady-ho
- Start date
The reason is: I DON'T LIKE OUTING PEOPLE.
i say pitati,,,,you say potato,,,,,,i say pitati......you say potato
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoxgcC9ONnA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoxgcC9ONnA&feature=related
Hello everyone not to butt in, but i was wondering if someone could explain what "Landrace" is. I'm guessing from reading a few pages that it refers to wild cannabis? but i could be wrong lol. Ive heard it mentioned several times in this thread. New to this and trying to learn as much as possible. Find it extremely fascinating.
@TDSS02:
Not wild, but unadulterated strains, prior to their hybridisation.
For example: Think of a village/cluster of villages in a valley in rural Afghanistan, prior to the arrival of Westerners. Every year, they sow the seed, grow the weed, set aside the seed for next year's crop, make the hashish. Many plants each year, but all from the same genetic lines. Repeat for centuries.
That would be a landrace Afghani. One small, often isolated area, very little if any addition of new genes from outside.
That is my understanding of the term. Please, wiser heads correct me if I am wrong.
Not wild, but unadulterated strains, prior to their hybridisation.
For example: Think of a village/cluster of villages in a valley in rural Afghanistan, prior to the arrival of Westerners. Every year, they sow the seed, grow the weed, set aside the seed for next year's crop, make the hashish. Many plants each year, but all from the same genetic lines. Repeat for centuries.
That would be a landrace Afghani. One small, often isolated area, very little if any addition of new genes from outside.
That is my understanding of the term. Please, wiser heads correct me if I am wrong.
I understand, thank you sir, appreciate it. So a landrace strain is an original unaltered strain...nice.
Landrace usually come from seeds that are geographically specific to one region or location. The term landrace may however be applied to domestic lines of cannabis that have been grown in isolation to other varieties of cannabis for long periods of time. For example,, Leb 27 [Esbe] is an inbred Lebanese variety. Although inbred for 27 years in Dane lands ,, Leb 27 is still considered a landrace strain.
Skunk #1 on the other hand ,, is a domesticated variety of cannabis... originally inbred from several landrace varieties... then inbred amid itself.
Hope this helps
Skunk #1 on the other hand ,, is a domesticated variety of cannabis... originally inbred from several landrace varieties... then inbred amid itself.
Hope this helps
Kaneh
Member
If it's allover internet, (to be found by googling, like you said) you're not "outing" anyone.
I just find it hypocritical that you demand proof from other people and don't offer any yourself.
You shouldn't argue about things if you don't dare to give any information behind your claims. (IMHO)
Kaneh
Member
You must be really naive if you believe that big agro/pharma/tobacco companies go by the law. They are multinational, they go to country where law is good for their business. These companies buy dictators/goverments/politicians to tailor laws to their needs.
They have private armies in 3rd world countries protecting their investments. Do you think they care about US-law about cannabis seeds?
"they'd reguire special licence", give me a break! Did United fruit Company had special licence to kill farmers who were on strike in Santa Marta?
Just google globalisation or something!
Last edited:
furious george
New member
GitT,
If you re-read my post I said “You were talking like there weren’t any official bodies working with cannabis breeding or germplasm collection/storage”
Hortilab.B.V and GW Pharma are examples of official bodies working with cannabis breeding. The seeds stored at Indianna are an example of germplasm collection/storage. It was just to demonstrate what a large range of populations of cannabis there is out there that can still be collected (and indeed have been collected and stored).
Add to that example the Dutch CPRO-DLO collection: “A collection of approximately 200 populations was established at Centre for Plant Breeding & Reproduction Research--Agricultural Research Dept. (CPRO-DLO) over the past five years.(1) It comprises fiber and drug strains and wild or naturalized populations from a worldwide geographic origin ranging between 28deg and 58deg latitude.”
There are other collections. The Vavilov Research Institute in St. Petersburg has over 400 populations. The vast majority of them are for <0.5%THC hemp populations, but given that it is perfectly legal for them to do so, very simple for them to achieve, (not to mention that they are collecting and preserving with the collaboration of Rob Clarke) It is not unreasonable to believe that they also store pharmacologically important landraces of drug types.
Of course a quick google of the words “cannabis germplasm “ would have revealed the same information to you. I wouldn’t be surprised if you already did know, like with Hortapharm B.V. and GW Pharm’s breeding projects over the last 2 decades. I can’t help but feel that you are choosing to be deliberately obtuse.
Again what I actually said regarding the Indiana collection was “I believe that they have already made a pretty good start at collecting germplasm” I didn’t claim they were presently growing out populations of them for breeding. They just have the genetics, safe and sound in seed form.
You do like to run away with the things that I say don’t you. But I’ll remind you of what I have actually said. “I think it's admirable that amateur/closet breeders are doing what they can to improve and preserve the cannabis gene pool as best as they can. But I think it would be more than a little egotistical to think that these amateur/closet breeders are eroding the cannabis gene pool or conversely are it's best hope for survival… Keep breeding away, whether you're hacking or trying to follow good principals, enjoy what you're doing but don't worry about saving the gene pool etc. We're all just playing (at breeding*) compared to the Agribusiness boys.”
* added later for clarity incase the pedantry ratchets up even more.
I wasn’t able to copy the diagram but if you follow this link: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...e=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false and go to page 140 (actually only 8 clicks on the page right button) you’ll see an overview of the cannabis gene pool taken from Cannabis Germplasm Resources, De Meijer 1995. It entirely omits recently created hybrid groups. It does acknowledge them “There are several manifestations of cultivars, ranging from open pollinated populations to clones, are not included in figure 7.1 but should of course be taken into account in the maintenance and study of germplasm.”
The point I was originally making is that the genetics in the hands of amateur drug cannabis breeders represents a tiny fraction of the cannabis gene pool (and the foundations of this has already been sold to GW Phama, as you have stated yourself). To think that any of you are in danger of eroding the cannabis gene pool, or that as a result of closet hacks and pollen chuckers valuable genes are being lost, to say
I was merely trying to add context to this sometimes alarmist thread.
Anyway, just my 2p
I’ve at least had a try to answer your questions, but you’ve ignored the only two I’ve asked.
What genes do you worry are being lost?
Do any breeders here have a comparably large genetic palate to work from?
If you re-read my post I said “You were talking like there weren’t any official bodies working with cannabis breeding or germplasm collection/storage”
Hortilab.B.V and GW Pharma are examples of official bodies working with cannabis breeding. The seeds stored at Indianna are an example of germplasm collection/storage. It was just to demonstrate what a large range of populations of cannabis there is out there that can still be collected (and indeed have been collected and stored).
Add to that example the Dutch CPRO-DLO collection: “A collection of approximately 200 populations was established at Centre for Plant Breeding & Reproduction Research--Agricultural Research Dept. (CPRO-DLO) over the past five years.(1) It comprises fiber and drug strains and wild or naturalized populations from a worldwide geographic origin ranging between 28deg and 58deg latitude.”
There are other collections. The Vavilov Research Institute in St. Petersburg has over 400 populations. The vast majority of them are for <0.5%THC hemp populations, but given that it is perfectly legal for them to do so, very simple for them to achieve, (not to mention that they are collecting and preserving with the collaboration of Rob Clarke) It is not unreasonable to believe that they also store pharmacologically important landraces of drug types.
Of course a quick google of the words “cannabis germplasm “ would have revealed the same information to you. I wouldn’t be surprised if you already did know, like with Hortapharm B.V. and GW Pharm’s breeding projects over the last 2 decades. I can’t help but feel that you are choosing to be deliberately obtuse.
Again what I actually said regarding the Indiana collection was “I believe that they have already made a pretty good start at collecting germplasm” I didn’t claim they were presently growing out populations of them for breeding. They just have the genetics, safe and sound in seed form.
You do like to run away with the things that I say don’t you. But I’ll remind you of what I have actually said. “I think it's admirable that amateur/closet breeders are doing what they can to improve and preserve the cannabis gene pool as best as they can. But I think it would be more than a little egotistical to think that these amateur/closet breeders are eroding the cannabis gene pool or conversely are it's best hope for survival… Keep breeding away, whether you're hacking or trying to follow good principals, enjoy what you're doing but don't worry about saving the gene pool etc. We're all just playing (at breeding*) compared to the Agribusiness boys.”
* added later for clarity incase the pedantry ratchets up even more.
I wasn’t able to copy the diagram but if you follow this link: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...e=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false and go to page 140 (actually only 8 clicks on the page right button) you’ll see an overview of the cannabis gene pool taken from Cannabis Germplasm Resources, De Meijer 1995. It entirely omits recently created hybrid groups. It does acknowledge them “There are several manifestations of cultivars, ranging from open pollinated populations to clones, are not included in figure 7.1 but should of course be taken into account in the maintenance and study of germplasm.”
The point I was originally making is that the genetics in the hands of amateur drug cannabis breeders represents a tiny fraction of the cannabis gene pool (and the foundations of this has already been sold to GW Phama, as you have stated yourself). To think that any of you are in danger of eroding the cannabis gene pool, or that as a result of closet hacks and pollen chuckers valuable genes are being lost, to say
is well… I could say naive, laughable, or tell you to ‘get real’. But that would be rude.
I was merely trying to add context to this sometimes alarmist thread.
Anyway, just my 2p
I’ve at least had a try to answer your questions, but you’ve ignored the only two I’ve asked.
What genes do you worry are being lost?
Do any breeders here have a comparably large genetic palate to work from?
To answer your questions .. IMO
Usually recessive genes and throw-backs and mongrels,, which although look totally unsuitable in that filial generation,, may throw out some real gems much later on in lineage. Open breeding helps preserve these recessive genetics.
We only breed for fun,, however the LGA collectively holds upto 500 individual cultigens at one time from hybridized, inbred,, and landrace seed stock and established clones... all collected from underground growers and professional stables... including our own
Hope this helps
Usually recessive genes and throw-backs and mongrels,, which although look totally unsuitable in that filial generation,, may throw out some real gems much later on in lineage. Open breeding helps preserve these recessive genetics.
We only breed for fun,, however the LGA collectively holds upto 500 individual cultigens at one time from hybridized, inbred,, and landrace seed stock and established clones... all collected from underground growers and professional stables... including our own
Hope this helps
furious george
New member
Thanks for the response's Doc,
But surely those genes are merely lost from your breeding project, not lost from the cannabis genepool. Since the landrace stocks from which they are derived are still out there (and yes i know they're not the exact same plants). In addition to that, the aforemention phama companies have the building blocks of the same genes you all hold.
500! wow. That's 3 times more strains than are listed in the Strain List sticky. You must be a very busy collective. How many landraces would you say you held?
FG
But surely those genes are merely lost from your breeding project, not lost from the cannabis genepool. Since the landrace stocks from which they are derived are still out there (and yes i know they're not the exact same plants). In addition to that, the aforemention phama companies have the building blocks of the same genes you all hold.
We only breed for fun,, however the LGA collectively holds upto 500 individual cultigens at one time from hybridized, inbred,, and landrace seed stock and established clones... all collected from underground growers and professional stables... including our own
Hope this helps
500! wow. That's 3 times more strains than are listed in the Strain List sticky. You must be a very busy collective. How many landraces would you say you held?
FG
If working from hybrids,, then yes,, a specific combination of genetics may be lost to ALL... forever,, unless male pollen is placed onto it,, or flipmode. By using more males and females then the chances of maintaining more off-shoots in the line (diversity) increases. Just depends what breeders are looking for.
Yeah
landrace stocks in Afghanistan for example aren't anywhere near the same as they used to be,, you're right,, they've changed completely,, all over the world , not just Afghanistan! Btw,, these days we're not as interested in pure landrace varieties as domesticated varieties which have been open bred...
All-said the Kentish Cream we are growing now is a Jamaican , from bagseed,, n established clone,, dub it
Not true. I doubt they have the Cambodian that went into Stonehedge as a commercial example,, or the many varieties originally collected by Danish and Dutch travellers that we keep as gifts from underground breeders :friends: Same grows for 1000s of growers that have an interest in seed genetics.
The chances of finding a recessive trait that throws up in any seed pack you are working from is also high,,, meaning you have as greater chance as the original breeder of finding a rogue plant in amid the siblings. This 'rogue' may later go on to parent a whole new generation of plants and lines.
Many famous lines originally came from a single bag-seed, or a strange plant in the batch.
Peace peace peace
Edit:
Back in 2004-7 ,, sharing seeds with homegrowers was a way of securing future genetic assets between OG-refugees, old and newly established collectives,, mainly as a reaction to the downing of Overgrow and lost perspective genetic connections that entailed.
lol.. we've kept more seeds than some "breeders" do in our "out" tins.. lmfao
It became a highly addictive habit for many! More seeds were produced underground then,, than perhaps ever before... and everyone shared the fruits of their love.. and the global community was happy and contented into the future.
All this talk of doom and gloom... monsanta style ops, and wars between dopeheads is nonsense...
The global-growers hold plenty enough seeds ,, from all over the globe,, thanks to ppl like Gypsy they still get them for free,,
For every grower online,, there's nine off it... overgrowing! Overgrow wasnt just a metaphor,, after the crash many of us took it to heart,, and have been struggling day in day out since to make dreams reality again,, any player haters need to find their own space and do their own thing
One love to all rebels
What has this thread turned into?????
True say's Sam the Caveman..lol ,, it's just another chapter in the online muddle-ry
we just..
"wanted to help them grow like,, keep the money man, it came from our souls like,, put it in your business, we'll earn it back from our shows right." [Chester P]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwtDKN1Z83M
Peace, Love, Unity
we just..
"wanted to help them grow like,, keep the money man, it came from our souls like,, put it in your business, we'll earn it back from our shows right." [Chester P]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwtDKN1Z83M
Peace, Love, Unity
You must be really naive if
you believe that big agro/pharma/tobacco companies go by the law. They are multinational, they go to country where law is good for their business. These companies buy dictators/goverments/politicians to tailor laws to their needs.
They have private armies in 3rd world countries protecting their investments. Do you think they care about US-law about cannabis seeds?
"they'd reguire special licence", give me a break! Did United fruit Company had special licence to kill farmers who were on strike in Santa Marta?
Just google globalisation or something!
Look, first of all I'm not going to post an article with Sam the Skunkman's real name on it. GET OVER IT! If you don't believe what I say, fine. I don't know how you have the audacity to call me hypocritical for not posting something that can get me banned.
Now this argument you're conducting has nothing to do with breeding. You're one of the people who's against big business and doesn't trust their methods or intentions. Good for you. I am not one of these people. I'll leave it at this: cannabis isn't legal anywhere on the planet. There isn't some foreign soil that the corporations can set up in. Like I said they'd require special licensing. If you want to believe they have foreign armies somewhere protecting vast greenhouses where they're properly maintaining out drug type germplasm then nothing I can say will change your mind. I think the idea is ridiculous.
im cool with HORTA PHARM,,,,,,,,IM COOL WITH ANY PHAMA COMPANY WHO PUSHES THINGS FORWARD,,,,,,,,,them pharma compays can change global laws,,,,,,look at GW......growing weed IS 100% leagal in the uk!!!!!,,,you just need a licence,,,an you can only use GW`s stock,,,,ive looked into it,,,,,,ElevatorMan has a Proposition on file,,,,i cant remember what he said but it was not bullspit
Okay, so we're at ONE group. And like I said they got their germplasm from Sam. One guy saved everything they have to work with. Do you want all your eggs in one basket?
Lets see some pics. Lets see the populations they maintain. Do you understand what you're arguing here? You think our genepool is okay because 3 groups (really I haven't seen many that didn't come from Rob and Sam) are maintaining everything of interest for those into drug types? How many hectares do you believe the entire pool is being maintained with by these people? Surely you've read about the problems hemp breeders were having maintaining their germplasm. And there's MANY more gardens trying to maintain those with a much easier legal process to go through to do it.
I can't help but feel you aren't qualified to speak on these issues. Why don't you go ask Rob Clarke what he thinks about the state of our pool?
You don't know any of this. How many actual seeds did they acquire? Do you know how many they even grew out for their experiments? Did they get 100 seeds of every type, 10, 10000? If all anyone needs is a freezer this wouldn't be such a big deal. It takes more to maintain this stuff.
LOL, amateur/closet breeders IMPROVING anything? I guess it's all about the "as best they can" part. I see nothing but enormous failure. You see preservation and improvement. Have you noticed even the big boys aren't in here talking improvement? You seem to think somehow this can occur in closets. How cute.
And how does ego have anything to do with this? Egotistical to think closet hacks are eroding the pool while it drifts about with no direction? It's not egotistical my friend, it's realistic.
Ugh, do you know how many more plants are grown in closets and backyards compared to the 3 groups you have mentioned that you believe are saving all the genetic information we will ever need? The pool is mostly maintained by us, you are looking at it backwards. Like I said how many hectares do you think these 3 groups are using compared to how many are grown illegally by us?
Your message is bad. You're attitude is 'fuck, it doesn't matter, keep on going.' Go ask ANYONE with a brain/degree/knowledge on the subject if they think we're losing valuable genes. Of course we are, it's a statistical certainty.
I worry about loss of adaptability. So does everyone who knows what they're talking about.
Sam the Skunkman has "a large genetic palate." Good thing he collected as many landraces as he could before they were ruined by the skunkification of the dutch and the legal issues surrounding this plant.
^^^^^ im with G,,,,G is right!!!,,,,ALMOST 100%
THE REAL GANJA FARMERS IN 3rd WORLD COUNTRYS MAINTAIN THE LANDRACE!!.....as only they can do!!!,,,aslong as there enviroment allows!!!
what we maintain collectivly is hetero SOLUTIONS TO n-DIMENTIONAL PROBLEMS,,,,,,,every specific enviroment is an n-dimention!!! ,,,,,WE "collectivly" are maintaining the hetero SOLOUTUON pool to every specific enviroment,,,,,,
WE with farmers collectivly create BANKS for parralell line germplasm!!
time is time,,,,,,only mass couppled with movement can distort it
THE REAL GANJA FARMERS IN 3rd WORLD COUNTRYS MAINTAIN THE LANDRACE!!.....as only they can do!!!,,,aslong as there enviroment allows!!!
what we maintain collectivly is hetero SOLUTIONS TO n-DIMENTIONAL PROBLEMS,,,,,,,every specific enviroment is an n-dimention!!! ,,,,,WE "collectivly" are maintaining the hetero SOLOUTUON pool to every specific enviroment,,,,,,
WE with farmers collectivly create BANKS for parralell line germplasm!!
time is time,,,,,,only mass couppled with movement can distort it
