What Male to use in a cross?
- Thread starter groady-ho
- Start date
nvisionary
Member
Tom,
Im referring to this thread back in August:
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=133408
...where you are talking about making selections in your tents on 10 inch seedlings, culling seedlings and pollinating seedlings. To "release" the resultant seeds for sales. That sounds like breeding to me.
But NOW you seem to be saying you arent doing anything like that; you are just looking for clones?
QUOTE TomHill :"What you seem to be referring to were a couple of lines that I and many others have been growing for decades in several locations - indoors and out. Individuals exhibiting resin quantity/quality are being set aside/kept as clones for further selections/testing/eval - that's all man."
Please explain that.
When you decide to finally large-scale breed cannabis in your "norcal greenhouse(s)", or the "tents",(that youll be rubbing in my face right?) you wont be doing the evals on 10 inch plants?
Do you have pics of full-grown breeding parents?? With your 30 years of open pollination, Id ASSUME you would.
I refer you BACK to post #444.
Im referring to this thread back in August:
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=133408
...where you are talking about making selections in your tents on 10 inch seedlings, culling seedlings and pollinating seedlings. To "release" the resultant seeds for sales. That sounds like breeding to me.
But NOW you seem to be saying you arent doing anything like that; you are just looking for clones?
QUOTE TomHill :"What you seem to be referring to were a couple of lines that I and many others have been growing for decades in several locations - indoors and out. Individuals exhibiting resin quantity/quality are being set aside/kept as clones for further selections/testing/eval - that's all man."
Please explain that.
When you decide to finally large-scale breed cannabis in your "norcal greenhouse(s)", or the "tents",(that youll be rubbing in my face right?) you wont be doing the evals on 10 inch plants?
Do you have pics of full-grown breeding parents?? With your 30 years of open pollination, Id ASSUME you would.
I refer you BACK to post #444.
LMAO.. Nvisionary, five weeks ago you were attempting to describe new standards to set forth. What you were describing was EXACTLY (give or take) what I was ALREADY performing in that August thread you just cited. I am all caught-up on open pollination thanks. When someone opens up the overgrow archives (they are intact) you'll see that I have been advocating open pollinations every 5 years +/- to back-up all selections since the day I signed on - as I've seen way too many folk back themselves/lines into corners over the years. I concluded this was a fairly solid course of action decades ago, what took you so long?
Again, I am not arguing against OP's in the maintenance of inbred lines etc, this is the backbone of all breeding programs. What I am arguing against is the notion of a plan that entails forgetting about EVERYTHING ELSE we know about selection methods in plant breeding.
Seriously, in all of your bitching, moaning, false accusations and false assumptions.. In your desperate attempt to seek out ulterior motives regarding me personally... Has it not once dawned on you that the real reason for me not getting behind you on all of this is simply because I think that it (forgetting about everything else we know about selection methods) is just plain-ole LAME?
Here you are below-
"Tom, You have it right.
Im talking about open pollination with low to no selection. The purpose of the change is to facilitate genetic diversity and nothing more. CULLING CLEARLY UNDESIRABLE/UNFIT INDIVIDUALS WOULD BE PART OF IT.."
>>>Well, I ONLY culled CLEARLY UNDESIRABLE/UNFIT INDIVIDUALS. A slight modification on OP that for some reason (???, lol) is NO LONGER good enough for you a COUPLE of WEEKS later (right after you found out that this was exactly what I was already doing) - this is so friggen RICH, it's funny. Your "bar" moves around more often than the football Lucy holds for Charlie Brown's place kick haha.
At the same time I AM STILL somewhat uncomfortable with that, so I am backing this up with open pollinations outdoors/under glass WITH NO culling/selection.
25 years ago (even ONE year ago) I didn't foresee being here today at your wannabe inquisition for breeders, but I am here none the less. I'll be sure to take some special pics just for you from now on.
Again, if you wanna follow along like everybody else who cares to you will SEE what I will be doing. Or, you can continue guessing wrong and making false assumptions regarding the future but that shit don't fly - your crystal ball is broken dude, get a refund. If I am not successful at spanking the HELL out of what you are proposing ("just open pollinate those polyhybrids, these stoners will never know the difference") in the creation of new hybrids to be judged by the community, then perhaps I will not continue on with them.
Here are a few pics of full sized plants (June transplant into 30 gal bags for 1/2 lbs per) during the most recent round of any REAL selections performed on this line (Deep Chunk - 2003), all backed-up with open pollinations, as always.
Now, since they are ALL the same and you already HAVE what I have etc, let's see some pics/results of YOUR thirty+ year-old UNHYBRIDIZED Afghanistan seed stock for comparison. I try not to assume or guess too often -THESE ARE FOOL THINGS TO DO- but it would be pretty funny if you were somehow under the impression that you'd be burying chicken shit today with an eye to creating chicken salad tomorrow (being that they are so closely related and all).
-Tom
Again, I am not arguing against OP's in the maintenance of inbred lines etc, this is the backbone of all breeding programs. What I am arguing against is the notion of a plan that entails forgetting about EVERYTHING ELSE we know about selection methods in plant breeding.
Seriously, in all of your bitching, moaning, false accusations and false assumptions.. In your desperate attempt to seek out ulterior motives regarding me personally... Has it not once dawned on you that the real reason for me not getting behind you on all of this is simply because I think that it (forgetting about everything else we know about selection methods) is just plain-ole LAME?
Here you are below-
"Tom, You have it right.
Im talking about open pollination with low to no selection. The purpose of the change is to facilitate genetic diversity and nothing more. CULLING CLEARLY UNDESIRABLE/UNFIT INDIVIDUALS WOULD BE PART OF IT.."
>>>Well, I ONLY culled CLEARLY UNDESIRABLE/UNFIT INDIVIDUALS. A slight modification on OP that for some reason (???, lol) is NO LONGER good enough for you a COUPLE of WEEKS later (right after you found out that this was exactly what I was already doing) - this is so friggen RICH, it's funny. Your "bar" moves around more often than the football Lucy holds for Charlie Brown's place kick haha.
At the same time I AM STILL somewhat uncomfortable with that, so I am backing this up with open pollinations outdoors/under glass WITH NO culling/selection.
25 years ago (even ONE year ago) I didn't foresee being here today at your wannabe inquisition for breeders, but I am here none the less. I'll be sure to take some special pics just for you from now on.
Again, if you wanna follow along like everybody else who cares to you will SEE what I will be doing. Or, you can continue guessing wrong and making false assumptions regarding the future but that shit don't fly - your crystal ball is broken dude, get a refund. If I am not successful at spanking the HELL out of what you are proposing ("just open pollinate those polyhybrids, these stoners will never know the difference") in the creation of new hybrids to be judged by the community, then perhaps I will not continue on with them.
Here are a few pics of full sized plants (June transplant into 30 gal bags for 1/2 lbs per) during the most recent round of any REAL selections performed on this line (Deep Chunk - 2003), all backed-up with open pollinations, as always.
Now, since they are ALL the same and you already HAVE what I have etc, let's see some pics/results of YOUR thirty+ year-old UNHYBRIDIZED Afghanistan seed stock for comparison. I try not to assume or guess too often -THESE ARE FOOL THINGS TO DO- but it would be pretty funny if you were somehow under the impression that you'd be burying chicken shit today with an eye to creating chicken salad tomorrow (being that they are so closely related and all).
-Tom
OH SHIT.................... SNAP.......!
tom that second picture down is, erm, sick, im all out of superlatives. i just hope i find one like that.
V.
V.
cannaboy
Member
nvisionary
Member
Tom,
I dont think Im off base. You are not very convincing.
I asked you to show me the pics of full grown breeding plants.
QUOTE,nvis:"Do you have pics of full-grown breeding parents?? With your 30 years of open pollination, Id ASSUME you would."
You return the post with the above pics. Is that your OP of breeding parents then? Or NO? You leave people assuming things because you are so unclear. Im left to suspect thats a method designed to elude.
Heres how you describe the pic you returned my question with: "Here are a few pics of full sized plants during the most recent round of any REAL selections performed on this line (Deep Chunk -2003),"
>>> What? one vague ambiguous pic of 4 or 5 female plants, and then 3 closeups of your favorite budshot? LMAO, you must be high if you think that proved anything about your 30 years of OPing populations. Were those plants in the pic your open poll??
What was your point there? Kindly clearly describe the situation we are looking at in the first pic.
TH:"all backed-up with open pollinations, as always. "
>>> Oh yea. Always, man. Thats what youve said. Post some of those. Those are the pics. POST THE PICS IF YOU HAVE THEM. IF YOU DONT then..you dont. And I dont believe you.
My goal is bigger than your few seed hackjobs and one apparent open pollination.
Im getting off track by your labored attempts to justify your personal gene pool actions, when there is a far more important goal. This isnt about You. Youre just the guy who felt the most need to justify his contribution.
Its about the speed hacking seedmarket, that encourages cannabis genepool erosion. And an attempt to re-evaluate what is an approved method of seedmaking and what is no longer approved..And hopefully get people to accept the changes in order to benefit drug cannabis, not just the pimps and the amateur seed hacks.
My focus should be returned to asking for YOUR SUPPORT(et.al.) in making real changes in the gene-eroding seedmarket, in the name of Cannabis. If you decline, then you decline. good bye.
Do you want to HELP make a difference on a scale that is bigger than you? If you dont want to help, ok, youre done here. Sit back and enjoy watching others take the wand, for a run around this hack fest.
I dont think Im off base. You are not very convincing.
I asked you to show me the pics of full grown breeding plants.
QUOTE,nvis:"Do you have pics of full-grown breeding parents?? With your 30 years of open pollination, Id ASSUME you would."
You return the post with the above pics. Is that your OP of breeding parents then? Or NO? You leave people assuming things because you are so unclear. Im left to suspect thats a method designed to elude.
Heres how you describe the pic you returned my question with: "Here are a few pics of full sized plants during the most recent round of any REAL selections performed on this line (Deep Chunk -2003),"
>>> What? one vague ambiguous pic of 4 or 5 female plants, and then 3 closeups of your favorite budshot? LMAO, you must be high if you think that proved anything about your 30 years of OPing populations. Were those plants in the pic your open poll??
What was your point there? Kindly clearly describe the situation we are looking at in the first pic.
TH:"all backed-up with open pollinations, as always. "
>>> Oh yea. Always, man. Thats what youve said. Post some of those. Those are the pics. POST THE PICS IF YOU HAVE THEM. IF YOU DONT then..you dont. And I dont believe you.
My goal is bigger than your few seed hackjobs and one apparent open pollination.
Im getting off track by your labored attempts to justify your personal gene pool actions, when there is a far more important goal. This isnt about You. Youre just the guy who felt the most need to justify his contribution.
Its about the speed hacking seedmarket, that encourages cannabis genepool erosion. And an attempt to re-evaluate what is an approved method of seedmaking and what is no longer approved..And hopefully get people to accept the changes in order to benefit drug cannabis, not just the pimps and the amateur seed hacks.
My focus should be returned to asking for YOUR SUPPORT(et.al.) in making real changes in the gene-eroding seedmarket, in the name of Cannabis. If you decline, then you decline. good bye.
Do you want to HELP make a difference on a scale that is bigger than you? If you dont want to help, ok, youre done here. Sit back and enjoy watching others take the wand, for a run around this hack fest.
nvisionary,
"TomHill
Member
Deep Chunk seed grow, 2009
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After all was said and done, I selected 24 healthy males to pollinate 144 healthy females all with no apparent weaknesses (phenotypically speaking) after being subjected to the light leaks."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this thread has been hi-jacked to the max
"TomHill
Member
Deep Chunk seed grow, 2009
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After all was said and done, I selected 24 healthy males to pollinate 144 healthy females all with no apparent weaknesses (phenotypically speaking) after being subjected to the light leaks."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this thread has been hi-jacked to the max
D
danny karey
Wow, this dude it trying to knock tomhill? LOL......Thats f'n hilarious, he's one of the only breeder's doing real work, and has been for awhile now.
Hey nvisionary, Tom is one of the only people looking after the cannabis genepool. Where's your decade's old open pollenated seed lines? I havn't seen any available?
Dude, take your BS out of here, your taking out your ass, 89 posts you have..........LOL!!!
You f'n troll.
Danny
Hey nvisionary, Tom is one of the only people looking after the cannabis genepool. Where's your decade's old open pollenated seed lines? I havn't seen any available?
Dude, take your BS out of here, your taking out your ass, 89 posts you have..........LOL!!!
You f'n troll.
Danny
nvisionary
Member
Raco, youre posting about something else.
danny, Tom Hill has good intentions, I agree... but cannabis doesnt care.
If Tom wants to help change the mess, I will welcome him on the team. If he wants to continue to defend stupid seedmaking by idiots (and sneaky llittle post edits), then I dont need his kind of input.
Things are going to change. It may not be this morning...it may not be next year...but things are gonna change around this hackfest. Cannabis will not sustain this kind of poor breeding, ignorance and greed forever.
It all starts from a seed. And at 800 hits a day, the seeds are germinating....
danny, Tom Hill has good intentions, I agree... but cannabis doesnt care.
If Tom wants to help change the mess, I will welcome him on the team. If he wants to continue to defend stupid seedmaking by idiots (and sneaky llittle post edits), then I dont need his kind of input.
Things are going to change. It may not be this morning...it may not be next year...but things are gonna change around this hackfest. Cannabis will not sustain this kind of poor breeding, ignorance and greed forever.
It all starts from a seed. And at 800 hits a day, the seeds are germinating....
nvisionary, whilst i do enjoy reading your posts, and you have influenced me,
are really here to change the world? - or do you just want an argument?
are really here to change the world? - or do you just want an argument?
That's pretty black and white nvisionary.... either you bend to the will of the new christ or die in a firey inferno of sinners.
Not all seeds are created by stupid idiots... I'm sure you made a few back when you still acted and not just ranted.
nvisionary
Member
Verdant,
good question.
Dialogue first; then Change.
way to focus Raco! yea!! hey, look at this pie!
good question.
Dialogue first; then Change.
way to focus Raco! yea!! hey, look at this pie!
Ha. Who else is on this imaginary super team? What has this group accomplished? Is there any reason he would want to join?
I still don't even completely understand all that you're advocating. So far I've only heard OP until legalization. Is that it? You speak volumes on what not to do but seldom mention practical advice.
I think we both know things are not going to change. I don't believe we'll be able to stop this crazy train until the legal issues are cleared up. IME-all these seedmakers and all these ignorant customers will not educate themselves. You've been making posts like these as long as I've been a member of the community and look how little has changed. Perhaps there's a few more like minded individuals running around but that's about it. I think there's a very small group of people who are even really considering these issues. I'm sad to say all of this. Good luck to you. Someone must side for the pool. I route for Libertarians too, but I know they're not the most realistic choice.
Nvisionary,Tom,
Why are modifying your posts AFTER I QUOTE them? LMFAO.
Yea, I KNOW why.
Im onto you, big man.
Oh man, would you care to point out to me this cover-up/lies? I just got finished going over all of your quoting me in this thread and the only thing I can find is me adding "(June transplant into 30 gal bags for 1/2 lbs per)" after "Here are a few pics of full sized plants" in post 451? Please tell me this can not possibly be what you are referring to? If so that's friggen hilarious. I have not lied or stretched the truth in any way - there's no percentage in that. Go ahead and give it your best shot though. I can see you desperately rifling through threads in my forum too, have fun
. You've dodged plenty, from pointing out the hypocrisy of your hacking away at other species, to requests of pics that back-up your words, to this increasingly hyperactive moving bar lol, it goes on and on.
Quotes- Nvisionary-
"Do you have pics of full-grown breeding parents??"
"I asked you to show me the pics of full grown breeding plants."
>>then all of the sudden..
"Is that your OP of breeding parents then?"
>> And bringing-up experimental errors while I am only hunting resinous plants during an op to be set aside for further testing? wtf? "tropical seedlines will be worthless"? What side are you on again? You are bouncing off the walls.
You first asked me for pics of FULL GROWN BREEDING PARENTS - you implied that I only worked with 10 inch plants (I probably would if I could regarding the OP rounds), I showed you otherwise along with a couple of OUTSTANDING plants I selected/pollinated during a routine outdoor grow. Not good enough for you, you NOW want something ELSE (full-grown open pollinated parents?). Is this what you need now? I've never done full grown OP, it sounds foolish.
You understand how undesirable/unnecessary/ what you are now asking for is? It is much preferred to grow smaller plants in an open pollination situation - not full grown plants. Aside from being able to fit more small plants than large in X amount of space,,, If you have 300 full grown plants planted to an acre and I have 300 smaller plants planted to a greenhouse the probability of all of my males pollinating all of my females is far greater than in your situation. The male pollen mix (collected away from the females), the cutting back/pruning of the earliest males to attempt a more even pollen spread, along with smaller plants placed closer together are all three in our favor regarding the subject that is supposedly at hand. You seem to be arguing against them. Is it that you haven't thought it through as well as you think you have, or is it that you're more concerned with giving me a hard time than anything else?
I might have stayed out of your highly flawed rant but am here because you fuggin called me out in a rude and incredibly pompous way. YOU made this about me and you continue to do so. Now you wanna me to go away, yeah OK.
Your only goal here that I can see is to badmouth folk you know nothing about. Do you have any other plan, if so, where is it? A new one other than the one I was already complying with but isn't good enough now a couple weeks later?
I've just noticed you've been given a little time out again, sigh, good job man. Hey I have an idea, when you come back maybe keep all the education part but leave out the "shaking babies" and all that other bullshit that you have NO CLUE about - eg presuming to think you know the extent of my (or others) breeding plans and resources. We just might get somewhere. -T
Is there any way to quantify a few points.
Apart from finite and shrinking , how large is the genepool and is it all of value ?
How fast is the erosion and how much real world damage is pollen chucking actually causeing ?
What percentage of growers venture online beyond youtube drivel and would ever get them ?
What percentage of growers who get these seeds will ever use these genetics for breeding and actually pass them on if they ever get around to popping them ?
I know a dozen real world growers from 25 - 70 and am the only one who even looks at a weed forum and none whould ever make seed , have no idea if this is in any way representative.
Wonder if gene manipulation can get to the point when it is possible to isolate and retrieve traits from hybrids and untangle the mess.
Huge amount of research on food crops that could filter down one day.
Brave new world or another disaster ?
Apart from finite and shrinking , how large is the genepool and is it all of value ?
How fast is the erosion and how much real world damage is pollen chucking actually causeing ?
What percentage of growers venture online beyond youtube drivel and would ever get them ?
What percentage of growers who get these seeds will ever use these genetics for breeding and actually pass them on if they ever get around to popping them ?
I know a dozen real world growers from 25 - 70 and am the only one who even looks at a weed forum and none whould ever make seed , have no idea if this is in any way representative.
Wonder if gene manipulation can get to the point when it is possible to isolate and retrieve traits from hybrids and untangle the mess.
Huge amount of research on food crops that could filter down one day.
Brave new world or another disaster ?
