What Male to use in a cross?

[Tom Hill]

Hi GitT,

If you're looking for tailor made indoor plants (from a production grower's view) I'd stay the hell away from my shit for now, lol, honestly. I'll be putting together some hybrids from scratch that are much more suited. If I was anything close to what dudes attempting to make me out to be I'd just cross it all out to SK1 etc and go wee wee wee all the way home.

Haze is a polyhybrid, but hardly suited or developed for growing indoors or under glass. We have to grow it in a greenhouse in California to even have a chance at all, not bred for it by a long shot. I doubt this is what he's referring to when speaking of modern developments. 15 weeks inside or December harvest under glass both of wispy-ass bud is hardly what we could call suited. I offered it among others to nvisionary some 8 years back but he was adamant about not touching anything that went longer than 12 weeks and pure stock wasn't particularly important to him either - now he's riddling me about conservation and distance while he's prolly swimming around in the soup. (yes, that was particularly fun to say )

The rainy season is just ending now and growing season starting down here in the tropics, I will try to get some pics together - I know a few folks. For damn sure ima take some pics of thousands of plants in Mendocino from my seed filling greenhouses this spring too. Then I'll follow nvisionary around and hammer him with these pics for fun when he decides to get lippy on me

Have you seen my short broadleafs? I need to stretch them out among other things to get something tailor made for indoor and these tropicals are well suited. There is still good plants to be located in Central/South American stock, but the frequency of those plants are on the decline. THC levels may stay relatively fixed under open pollination (I think this is BS too by the way) but I doubt modifying factors (terpenoid profiles etc) affecting the quality of high do. It seems higher order combinations need be actively selected for or they will decline in the population. This is my best guess as to why landrace stock is heading downhill around the world under open pollination. -T

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Very honest answer. Thanks Tom. I guess I'll be forced to stay away.

With regards to Haze. For me personally I would have chosen a haze hybrid. Aren't you making DC x Haze and X18 x Haze? Are these also more suited for greenhouses? Have you hybridized your DC and X18 populations? Perhaps that could give a more productive indoor hybrid. Anyway thanks for answering. Hope I didn't derail the thread too much, it's why I asked in a pm. Back to the show:

I'm sure we would all greatly appreciate some new landrace photos. And your own seed production facilities sound like as good a way as any to hammer nvisionary He can take the pressure, no worries.

Your broadleafs: are you just talking about DC and x18? I'm familiar with them and assumed they were IBLs that prob lack a bit of vigor as far as a production clone would go. That's why I asked if you ever crossed them. I thought most people were growing these types indoors tho...I don't know...

I think the THC levels will stay relatively fixed. Afghani and Kush landraces weren't even evaluated on a individual plant level and they didn't degrade to hemp. They may have had other cannabinoid producing plants but they didn't take over the population either.

For clarification: you mean the gene frequencies for terpenoid profiles show more changes year to year than THC levels? Weird...

It's a shame you think this stock is going downhill. I wonder what has changed in the last few decades to make this so. Anyway, thanks for taking the time.

 

[Jones]

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[GreenintheThumb]

Why is that strange? I also tried to come up with methods to prevent significant genetic drift in OP but that was dismissed because, you know, all it takes is growing 2000 plants and you're golden. Even though the plant number was derived from a probably incomplete model, that assumes all plants have the same chance of mating and also doesn't take environmental factors into account.

Fair enough. I didn't mean to dismiss anything you said. I too want to minimize drift. And I certainly don't remember saying 2000 plants is 'all it takes.' But that can't be a bad first step.

So how much do you think the original landraces were drifting about willie nillie (yeah, i just wanted to say willie nillie) Or are you saying they didn't drift because they were acclimated to their environment but if you took the seeds to a new location they would drift even in OP?

I don't know. I guess I just can't fake enough concern for the 'gene pool'.

Ha, you seem to care quite a bit. It's why I appreciate your contributions. I just thought it was fair to push the action onto you as you did with URUK.

...didn't mention the input parameters they used in that model and didn't address the premises the model assumes and/or ignores...

It's true but that wasn't a paper about that subject. That was Clarke explaining the seedbank more than him holding our hands through ever little thing he's learned over the years. Maybe Sam will come say what numbers were used but I imagine he's still afraid of nvisonary

Do you trust numbers without having the fundamental information on how they were derived?

In Clarke's case I'm willing to give him a break. Especially because the paper wasn't even about the specifics of these numbers. I couldn't even find the entire paper that he plugged the numbers into, only the abstract...

What's the point of bitching about closet hacks and stuff if you don't try to offer working alternatives (besides 'just don't do it') but instead just re-quote the same old unproven numbers, over and over again?

I don't think everything we say in here is solely for the closet hacks. I don't think many of them care about anything we're saying in here. I am not nvisonary and I don't even really have the hope that they'll stop doing what they're doing. At best I hope a few of them learn to stop with the 1:1's and maybe instead use pollen mixes and keep 3 or four different moms instead of one. I'm more of a realist I suppose. But someone like nvisionary has to come in and ruffle some feathers and shake some babies.

Maybe there's someone out there who wants to give proper OP preservation a try.
Wouldn't it be better there's good info on it?

Certainly. But I don't think the 2000 number is what's stopping them.

Look, the rye guys were fucked because they made replacement-seeds from seeds, that were grown and harvested elsewhere, at their genebank location (ex situ). Börner found out that those seedlots show significant genetic drift and loss of allele diversity. While replacement-seeds that were made from local batches (in situ) didn't have that much of a drift.
Don't you think stuff like this needs to be addressed?

Been a fun day. Good night, Green et al.

Yes, you are correct. I need to go read the actual article. Thought there was only an abstract. You bring up many good points and I'm not trying to be a dismissive asshole. Guess it just comes naturally for me. Have a good night. Hope to see some more good comments from you tomorrow.

 

[Tom Hill]

GitT,

I have tested more than 30 Haze "F1" hybrids, none performed like an F1 should, all were variable.

I gave out a few of these recently to some folk but have no plans for releasing them in bulk, they are just R&D. I'll go instead directly to the F2 (this will be another gen where larger numbers are required) and set aside some ideotypic candidates for genotyping via progeny testing and narrow families down from there is my tentative plan with the Haze hybrid project.

Broadleafs, I also have a Northern Indian that breeds true and another from Pakistan. I've crossed them all but no combinations of these will keep up with your guys' expectations indoors. To the drawing board I go.

Re clarification- I mean that highly favorable multilocus combinations will segregate and dismantle unless we get after them with intensive inbreeding as appose to open pollination. Nvisionary knows this too, but we are only being served half a platter here I'm afraid. -T

 

[GreenintheThumb]

I love posts like that. Thanks Tom.

I agree with you on the segregation. But I think Nvisionary is only concerned with maintaining this diversity until legalization. And since no one's really putting in work right now I agree with him that most OP lines would be as useful to a gardener as the genetic soup currently being sold. At least with his method we have more chance of locking in the favorable multilocus combinations later.

Is your Northern Indian a sativa type broadleaf or would you lump it with indicas?

 

[nvisionary]

Tom, the world is not that big.. any more...and the drug genepool is smaller than it EVER has been. Prohibition, and access to drug cannabis genes have opened it up for a hack fest. And of course we humans have no self control when it means a personal gain, do we?
Modern landrace farmers are not skilled or educated enough to know how to handle their seed populations. They have never understood the best way to maintain a population. With the information of modern plant breeders(REAL ONES), they could be reducing gene loss and genetic drift.
It wont be long until these elusive plants you are looking at are allowed to be poly-hybridized via Gypsys chipper machine, and lost completely..Maybe you have already sold them 'good' seeds to cross into their local races... Thats what Our partner in crime Gypsy would do!....if so, Thanks!

QUOTES from the IHA link to contemplate:

"The last 60-70 years have been disastrous for the Cannabis gene pool, and many local landrace varieties, the result of hundreds of years of selection for local use, have been lost because of Cannabis suppression and eradication, neglect on the part of agricultural officials and industry, anti-hemp propaganda and the general trend (until recently) to reduce industrial hemp breeding and research. Genetic materials are a living heritage and we are their custodians. We must concentrate our efforts to collect, preserve, characterize and utilize the remaining Cannabis genetic resources before it is too late."


"As the worldwide reduction in diversity of the local hemp landraces used by indigenous farmers continues, the importance of gene banks becomes obvious. Unfortunately, few comprehensive Cannabis germplasm collections exist. "

"The vast majority of landraces may already be extinct simply because of neglect resulting from modern market pressures. "

"Because of the technical and financial difficulties of reproducing the VIR Cannabis collection there has likely been considerable loss of genetic diversity and purity through low population sizes and incomplete isolation. In addition, many of their accessions may be so similar to each other that they need no longer be represented and reproduced as separate accessions resulting in pointless extra maintenance, storage and reproduction costs."

" A common goal of hemp breeders should be establishing a smaller and broader core collection of Cannabis germplasm that has been exhaustively characterized agronomically in the field and molecular and chemical levels in the laboratory. Only then can we see what diversity really is available for researchers to work with in the future. This core collection could be maintained with optimal reproduction and storage methodology."

Do you SEE any parallels?

TomHill:"They are not already circulating in my stock they are far removed from it, they'll be of some use, thanks."

>>That is a naive statement. Just because you havent personally hybridized your seed collection to these local populations(yet), doesnt mean that your stock is not related to them in any ways. The populations youre looking at came from somewhere, long before you and I came from somewhere. Oh, theyre related..The question is.. how closely?
You sound confident that youll find usefulness from these so-called pure landraces. Im ready to hear what exactly you are looking for there at the equator, and how you will get it set up for your awaiting seed buying fans in the upper latitudes.

Turn your pre-hack seedlots into STORED SEEDS for the future. Give up on the dream to become a paid seed hack. Hacking the genepool is the most dishonorable work you can do.

 

[englishrick]

Yeah, go back a few pages I said that before.
This is not a question if OP is useful. It's about how it should be performed....

sorry G,,,,,,ive just got give jones a BIG WOOOP WOOOP for this^^^^^^

 

[mean mr.mustard]

Tom, the world is not that big.. any more...and the drug genepool is smaller than it EVER has been. Prohibition, and access to drug cannabis genes have opened it up for a hack fest. And of course we humans have no self control when it means a personal gain, do we?
Modern landrace farmers are not skilled or educated enough to know how to handle their seed populations. They have never understood the best way to maintain a population. With the information of modern plant breeders(REAL ONES), they could be reducing gene loss and genetic drift.
It wont be long until these elusive plants you are looking at are allowed to be poly-hybridized via Gypsys chipper machine, and lost completely..Maybe you have already sold them 'good' seeds to cross into their local races... Thats what Our partner in crime Gypsy would do!....if so, Thanks!

QUOTES from the IHA link to contemplate:

"The last 60-70 years have been disastrous for the Cannabis gene pool, and many local landrace varieties, the result of hundreds of years of selection for local use, have been lost because of Cannabis suppression and eradication, neglect on the part of agricultural officials and industry, anti-hemp propaganda and the general trend (until recently) to reduce industrial hemp breeding and research. Genetic materials are a living heritage and we are their custodians. We must concentrate our efforts to collect, preserve, characterize and utilize the remaining Cannabis genetic resources before it is too late."


"As the worldwide reduction in diversity of the local hemp landraces used by indigenous farmers continues, the importance of gene banks becomes obvious. Unfortunately, few comprehensive Cannabis germplasm collections exist. "

"The vast majority of landraces may already be extinct simply because of neglect resulting from modern market pressures. "

"Because of the technical and financial difficulties of reproducing the VIR Cannabis collection there has likely been considerable loss of genetic diversity and purity through low population sizes and incomplete isolation. In addition, many of their accessions may be so similar to each other that they need no longer be represented and reproduced as separate accessions resulting in pointless extra maintenance, storage and reproduction costs."

" A common goal of hemp breeders should be establishing a smaller and broader core collection of Cannabis germplasm that has been exhaustively characterized agronomically in the field and molecular and chemical levels in the laboratory. Only then can we see what diversity really is available for researchers to work with in the future. This core collection could be maintained with optimal reproduction and storage methodology."

Do you SEE any parallels?

TomHill:"They are not already circulating in my stock they are far removed from it, they'll be of some use, thanks."

>>That is a naive statement. Just because you havent personally hybridized your seed collection to these local populations(yet), doesnt mean that your stock is not related to them in any ways. The populations youre looking at came from somewhere, long before you and I came from somewhere. Oh, theyre related..The question is.. how closely?
You sound confident that youll find usefulness from these so-called pure landraces. Im ready to hear what exactly you are looking for there at the equator, and how you will get it set up for your awaiting seed buying fans in the upper latitudes.

Turn your pre-hack seedlots into STORED SEEDS for the future. Give up on the dream to become a paid seed hack. Hacking the genepool is the most dishonorable work you can do.

This is the post I've been looking for. Thank you for finally answering some of my questions!

I'd just like to say something about the last two sentences... I don't have any dream of getting any money from my seeds. I also believe that many who do make crosses also keep their mind on what they are doing and keep an open pollinated lot of their original stock if they are truly making their efforts a project.

Growers who use seed created in less than desirable numbers for simple use of cloned keepers have not lessened or increased any threat of genetic degradation on the apocolyptic scale you imply.

That in a nutshell is all I've been trying to say. I might note the possibility of you enabling the ignore function by now LOL.

 

[nvisionary]

TomHill:I offered it among others to nvisionary some 8 years back but he was adamant about not touching anything that went longer than 12 weeks and pure stock wasn't particularly important to him either - now he's riddling me about conservation and distance while he's prolly swimming around in the soup. (yes, that was particularly fun to say ) "

>>> I dont recall the offer particularly, because Im offered "pure" seeds of unknown history and origin often.
And you may recall it correctly; I probably was not too interested in germplasm that I already had, or other ones that took over 12 weeks to finish. Im at 45degN. Not the tropics. sorry man. I still dont want em. I really dont need them. I have all the SOUP that you have, and that we both would ever need. STORE THEM. Soup can be frozen for longterm storage to be EATEN UP later.

You have lots of good plans..lol. I hope you get that chance to rub a REAL LONG TERM breeding program in my face. I really DO! It would be an honor for me to have you chase me down to show me GOOD work.
Is it going to be a pic of little 10inch seedlings? or your seed-bearing selected plants from each of 4-8 years? Show me that Cali greenhouse full of full-grown OP'ing seed plants. How about making it a VIDEO to really rub it in good?

(see sig)

 

[englishrick]

IM GONA BE AN OLD MAN AT THE END OF THIS

In his classic 1950 book, Variation and Evolution in
Plants, Stebbins had claimed that inbreeding plant populations
should be largely devoid of genetic variation. The
argument put forward by Stebbins was that inbreeding leads
to homozygosity and the superior inbred type should outcompete
all other lines leading to a homogeneous population.
Bob knew from his plant-breeding experiences that
inbreeding crops, such as lima beans, had large stores of
genetic variation and showed rapid genetic responses to
selection. Stebbins had repeated what was the conventional
dogma of the time, but this provided the stimulus for Bob
to begin what became a classic series of experiments to
characterize genetic variation in inbreeding plant species.
Stebbins, for his part, encouraged this effort to look more
deeply at the genetics of inbreeding species. The quest led
Bob into an entirely new field, ecological genetics, which
sought to combine population genetics with ecology, where
Bob played a foundational role. It also began a series of
papers on population studies in predominantly self-pollinated
species that spanned a period of more than 20 years.

 

[englishrick]

maybe we ALL need to focus on developing new pure-lines, from the exsisting pure lines we have,,colection of pure lines is top priority!, an any1 can do that , with toms help,,thanks tom

How do you make new pure-lines from existing ones? What does this even mean?,,How is Tom helping you do anything?

i was talking about making a PureLine as explained below from the existing "Purelines",,like Toms DC and X18,,,,selfing the DC and the X18 has allready come to my mind,,,,,i already have some selfed x18 seeds but its a touch subject

Pure Line: A strain homozygous at all loci, ordinarily obtained by successive self-fertilizations in plant breeding.

,,,,,,OP is not a direction its the road to hemp imo,,,,,,,

Please explain to me how this would happen. I'd love to hear it.

imo ,,whatever trait the enviroment promotes will rise to express itself in the numbers

 

[Jones]

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[URUK]

I apologize to URUK if I hurt his feelings. Not my intention.

do not worry about my feelings i'm thick skinned. The only thing that got me is that you seem to have a problem with the number 2000 min (like TH said more the better), and that Crossa work is somehow not important yet it is used by many genebanks throughout the world for rice, maize etc... here are some programmes used that I think wang has developed with others, he is one of the main reasons people can do such good work with QTL, Mapping etc

http://www.isbreeding.net/software.html

I do not believe Nvisionary was saying OP every generation, but to attain the diversity to OP and store for future... that said I still agree with a bit of artificial selection ie early/late flowering... and suitable growing conditions again putting odds in our favour.. as I think yourself and yeti got at.

With regard to Landraces again it comes down to the fact the seedline will adapt to suit enviroment ie wind will pay a part, and then will population genetics etc etc etc, but like I stated earlier you mentioned the OP favours early males this would only be true if the females it pollinates are suitable for pollen at the point the early male drops pollen, then the enviroment comes into play etc, hence in a large enough field you will happen to see populations forming naturally.

it would only favour early maturing flowers if all the females had the same flowering period,which in a true outdoor OP I doubt. it would also depend on many enviromental factors, which you see with landraces they have usually evolved/adapted to their enviroment via natural selection.

So for genetic diversity natural selection is still above breeder supplemented. and the reverse true for pure lines.

As stated previously the only way to attain 99% diversity is via 2000 plants etc.

Look up population genetics.

Since the OP would be done to regain/attain genetic diversity I wouldn't have a prob with a bit of artificial selection I think this is also something Clarke found out in russia.

 

[nvisionary]

re: early males

I dont think some of you have ever even seen a cannabis population coming into flower.

With the exception of about 1 plant in 3 hundred('VERY early male'), the male majority releases pollen at the same time, within hours of each other, most within only a few days of each other.
You can walk through this population in 2 more days, and EVERY MALE is dropping pollen and making seeds, or already is done. This will be the bulk of the collected seeds. The pollen window is not really very wide. In upper latitudes, seed maturity outdoors will also be a factor of selection. Because with the later pollinations, there may not be enough time/good weather to properly mature those seeds.
In a week or so(from first pollen release), there are almost no more new flowers opening. At this time, the females in the population are all receptive to pollination. MOST of the open pollination continues for the next week, in lesser degrees as time goes by.

The rare "very early male" is usually also a short runt anyway, so it doesnt contribute that many gametes to the Whole.

Just like the first sperm reaches the human egg, the first pollen grains reach the pistil. This is nothing to prevent, is it?. Its what's supposed to be happening.

With the logic of reducing the contributions of the first 20% of the cannabis OP males,...I ask..are we all humans that were produced by the 'early male' that some of you are culling?

what is the premise behind culling the first male plants? Who says to do that?

 

[Tom Hill]

Nvisionary,

I really do enjoy reading what you write, but let's be clear.

8 years ago you "raised the bar" by reintroducing Cheif 7 turtles RRS adaptation on cannabis from the old Sinsemilla Tips mag - this was were it was at and anybody doing anything else were total hacks - you were so sure you had it all figured out man.

5-6 years ago it was all about 1:1 ExE etc, again, everybody else were hacks - you had it all figured out.

Here we go again, you have it all figured out, big surprise. What will it be tomorrow I wonder?

Thanks for the cut and paste re Clarke & co, but I heard him loud and clear the first time some 25 years ago and went to work doing something about it. I've been maintaining pure lines and my own gene bank for decades all the while resisting the temptation to bite off more than I could chew - self control.

My lines are as far removed as it gets from others I am looking at. You know exactly what I am looking for down here. In a word -recombination- the formation of NEW combinations of genes as a result of segregation in crosses between genetically different parents.

I have seed stored, I'm all caught-up there, thanks.

Yeah, I remember the offer of seed correctly, then, as now, you were so naive as to think that all Afghan lines (etc) are the same and closely related though some of that crap will have a guy looking for work at 7-11.

You continue to put forward this highly inefficient picture of recurrent selection based around phenotypic evaluation of large yearly crops as the only way to go. Not.

When you have a couple hundred plants in a couple of tents for OP, you'd do well to either mix equal parts pollen at a separate location (how you could argue against this from a conservation standpoint is beyond me) or try to cut back (not cull) the earliest male phenotypes. It takes minutes, not days or weeks for that pollen to find a home at close quarters. -T

 

[Jones]

.

 

[URUK]

Thanks for the cut and paste re Clarke, but I heard him loud and clear the first time some 25 years ago and went to work doing something about it. I've been maintaining pure lines and my own gene bank for decades all the while resisting the temptation to bite off more than I could chew - self control.

Tom,

whilst you heard him loud and clear in 93, some here didn't, so whilst you have looked after yourself perhaps now others can too. still kudos for you for picking up on it and doing it.

For the record I really appreciate both of you giving your time and experiance to us newbs, just need Fet here then we could have real fun about ABC vs dizzy j/k.

 

[nvisionary]

Its TRUE. I have raised alot of bars around here over the years. Have you?

I will raise more bars around here before I am finished.

You sound jealous/bitter about the things Ive done, RnD'ed, and presented. I understand. Youre probably an alpha male too, and you TRY to do better work which is better than most. thank you for that. But going forward with your infinitesimal breeding program is not going to CHANGE ANYTHING. Shit, your 'tropical seedlines' will be worthless in most marijuana producing regions of the world. We need you to STOP and ADVOCATE for change. Youre not changing anything when you persist with this SHITTY Seed business.

ok.

RRS is a valuable method. It rocked the OG and woke up many people forever. It CHANGED things(in people's minds anyway). Do you want to argue that with me? lolol. shittt...

Feminization with eXe was a HUGE personal discovery and a huge BREAKTHROUGH for drug cannabis at the time. It was a slightly better option than this amateur hackfest of choosing plants based on nothing but ignorance. I presented more than 10 things that could have been done, but nooo..as it turned out babies just eat and shit...and sell seeds.
At least feminized breeding supported full phenotypic evals on the parents. The kinds of feminized breeding I intro'ed online COULD have helped, but not when careless idiots are ALL doing it because its SIMPLE and was going to make them SEED MONEY. Look at feminized seeds NOW. Do you want to argue that with me? lolol

Now its Open Pollination, yes. Yet another BETTER option that I have presented. It looks like you dont want to argue that...lolol..

No, you want to argue with ME personally. Fine, man..do it.

whats next you ask????
Oh i dunno..theres so many frickn holes in this thing that YOURE NOT HELPING TO PLUG, Ill probably keep trying to fix it...as long as I have a NICK that is not banned or silenced. But will the BABIES ever listen?

What will you do to patch the holes Tom? sit in your cabana down south, and bitch about me asking -no, demanding- that you raise your LOW BAR again? bitch all you want.

.....Its the water for my metaphorical 'seeds'.

 

[Tom Hill]

You've accomplished much and I am not jealous or bitter about that at all man, come on.

RRS is valuable I wont argue with you or Mr Comstock et al. on that.

I first read about selfing/feminization of cannabis in MJ Botany by way of GA3 (Galoch 1978) just like many others did - not that this takes anything away from your work imo. Told you about an early NL line produced via GA3 in my neighborhood when you introduced your product - you laughed for some reason. Credit where it's due though, it was you who (in a single sentence of your advertisement I think) brought to light for me the implications of this tool in regards to genotyping individuals via progeny tests, thanks for that, most folks missed it though. Maybe if you had spent a bit more time back then the tool would be used properly more often today? No matter, lots of us are trying to clean-up the mess and plugging friggen holes that one left in its wake.

While you were doing these things I was already advocating open pollinations for genetic preservation. Why would I all of the sudden argue against it now?

I'm not bitching, or sitting around patting myself on the back either. Like it or not, some folks will disagree with you from time to time -imagine that. -T

URUK - "just need Fet here then we could have real fun about ABC vs dizzy" >>> Oh lord, don't you think he's already flexing enough without us having to endure that pic of him holding that qp of ABC again?