Trick my Pod - The complete Aeroponics primer

[whycombinator]

Looks like both of mine are 5 bolt, so hopefully I'm all set.

You said the flip usually happens around week 5 of flower right? I haven't even started flowering yet but I want to be prepared. Do you stop adding N entirely at this point and just load up the P/K?

 

[Pod Racer]

Ca is the key, N is the Clutch, and K is the Go go juice...

Ca is the key, N is the Clutch, and K is the Go go juice...

No the flip happens around the 2nd week of flowering. It happens right around the time you start to see thick pompom trick balls allover your plant. Usually by the end of the 3rd week you'll be in full on bud development. So you'll see it happen somewhere in that area, depending on the strain/nutrients/lighting schedule/hormones/etc.
But it is like a 24 hour event, once done, that is it. Low on the N as it will only be used sparingly and higher on the K as that is what the buds are using for building blocks.



The extra P is needed because higher K will lock it out and the accelerated speed at which they start to pack on weight the demand for more ATP (go go juice) is required.

Both P and Mg are a big part of that juice so there is an increased demand (hence the old Epsom Salts trick for soil and DWC).

Calcium is the big leveling feature here (unknown to most) and it is precisely at this point that there is usually none left in the solution. DM One counters this beautifully with a chelated Ca that stays around for the entire grow. An alternative is Cal/Mag Plus by Botanicare - same solution, just not as percise or specific as DM one. It helps stabilize and balance all the hormonal chaos of not getting impregnated but still needing to produce pods.

In other plants (say fruit or berry) this is the point where the flowers have been knocked up and are now going to flush out with juicy ripeness. All those Carbohydrates and Sugars pumped into the baby carriage for the trip. That is K baby the building blocks of fruit tissue. So the same demand is experienced by the cannabis plant as it should have been fertilized by that point and start to prepare seed pods with lots of sticky resin.

This is why you see the cannibalization of the lower leaves at the end. They just gorge themselves with K, even eating off their own toes and fingertips.

With experience and luck, this is minimized and the buds just continue to swell and swell. So a ramping up of the P/K around week 3 (but in TAG it can come on in 2 weeks or even less) is a sound investment. Just don't starve the N as it is needed and you can use the N as a Clutch to slow down your flowering and extend the length and development to grow even larger buds or let them catch up.

Good luck young Jedi. :wink:

 

[whycombinator]

Ok I'll be looking out for it then, thanks for the info. I'm using AN like 'hound and I know he's had some problems so I'm trying to understand this stuff.

 

[Pod Racer]

The reason I initially went to Botanicare was over roots. An old buddy of mine from the way back was running a true aero system and hipped me to the difference. The Botanicare line left his, and my own, roots pearly and pristine. So I tend to still stick with some of their products.

In any water environment it is best to use 'clear' nutrients. DM One is all transparent as is Ionic, you'll find those do the best when it comes to keeping foggers free and roots immaculate. The others tend to stain or clog a lot.

I.E., Never use Superthrive. If you want something like it, use TAR (Thrive Alive Red) as the Superthrive, in my and many experience, creates this horrible snot like mucus that clogs everything and wrecks havoc on your grow. Something in the accelerated and aerated environment I don't know, but it is a serious PITA.

Hence.. SM-90 a little oil for the gears.

 

[whycombinator]

Do you prefer 'clear' nutrients mostly for the aesthetics or because they cause less clogging? And what do you mean by 'clear' anyway, no color, or not cloudy? Personally I can appreciate some nice white roots, but I don't care all that much if they are stained. It seems to me a little dye in the nutes isn't going to have any effect on clogging. AN specifically says they add dye only to make it easier to distinguish the different parts, and they make 'original' versions of their grow and bloom that don't contain dye.

 

[Pod Racer]

No, clear as in transparent and not cloudy. Color isn't relevant, DM One Flower is Red like Cool Aid.

But I wouldn't use products like Liquid Karma for TAG as it will clog everything with a fine silt almost immediately and you'll have dried roots. The staining isn't a big issue, just that there is a difference between the two.
I am just really big on fish bones.

Enter Exhibit A:

This is a Bio-Slug that forms from LK under TAG in some rigs. (Most)

 

[whycombinator]

Gross, I'm using some AN benes but hopefully they don't cause any problems, I think 'hound used them and didn't have much trouble.

 

[KinBudz]

Fish bones are sweet.. hehe. Thats some wicked goo in your filter to.. lol.

Dutch Master has been recommended to me before so I think I'm gona have to give that a try, appreciate all the info Pod Racer, you are strong with the force. :wink: hehe...

Noticed the other day Dutch Master has this other product called Liquid Light, anyone ever tried that stuff? They "claim" that it can increase the amount of light energy your plants can absourb.

Speaking of lights, has anyone done a good comparison between all the lights out there with one of these rigs? I mean if this method provides as efficient of a respiratory system at the root level as I think it will, a little expermintation could go a very long way...

In the past I have noticed considerable elongation between the nodes when using HPS, I did a seperate test with MH and the distance between nodes decreased to nearly half if not more. More than likely because of the more usable light spectrum emitted by the MH light. Now I hear good things about the new T5's but I'm not convinced the power is there... we shall see...

 

[whycombinator]

I'm using a tek light 44 for vegging and it's doing a good job so far. Here's a pic from today, they aren't looking perfect because my pump died yesterday and they got a bit too dried out, but they're looking much better than they did.

 

[gmanwho]

In light of whycominators post of his pump shitting the bed, then roots drying out abit. I was running a magdrive pump in a rubbermaid 35gal aerocloner setup, 396gph eco with 6 green misters, 1/2 pvc tubing. My dumb ass forgot to plug the pump back in after i cleaned the system, next day i went down to find wilting plants.

About the size of whycombinators in his above pic. They all recovered, but the once light tan & bright white roots have turned brown. root tips began to exhibit new bright white growth and plants have fully covered, lost some fan leaves, but growth is picking back up and white tips are forming from the darker brown roots. No slime or root rot evident.

Will these dark roots pose a problem later on ? the centers of the roots seem to be alive sense there had been new white growth at the tips, and horzontal root development.

running cann aqua, with some rhiztonic and cannazyme. Im hoping the cannazyme will working on any dead matter.

Just wondering if anyone experienced something similar from having roots almost die to relive. would hate to have the brown areas cause problems 1 to 2 months from now.


On the tag theory, using a 35 gal rubbermaid. 6-8 plants. how many misters. And whats a good pump for a tag newbie. above 50 psi atleast is what i gathered sofar,above 100psi is better. thinking of converting one of my diy aerocloners.

Is it possible to keep my green misters, and just replace my pump with a higher PSI pump runned external?

Any pumps at the depot that may work for a small systems to start. if im gonna spend $200 on a smaller pump, and a larger one with future expansion is 270, im going for the $270

Very interested in converting one of my 35 gal rubbermaids to see where it may lead me.

How about those "arizona misters" with pumps? not the brass misters, but the pumps.

Any experience with canna agua nutes.

How about running them in 5 gal buckets?

Great stuff here, great stuff. PoD, im hooked,Now i can stop thinking about setting up a similar system. Damn this site ))))))) Im gonna loose sleep.


B-safe

 

[Pod Racer]

It's All about the Root Zone baby!

It's All about the Root Zone baby!

Best for the DIY cheappy is to use the 1/2" black poly hose and punch style foggers. All you can find at Home Depots in the Southern States. I don't see shit up here in the Heartland, but I've got about 150 now. Great for small pods and you can clean them.

Also they aren't brass. You are using a high pressure acid spray. I've often considered the AZ fogger lines, have a couple, but never got to it as I found much better alternatives.

Meanwhile, yes, you could just add a Diaphragm pump if you wanted too at the least. It would help breakdown your droplets by sending your spinners into hyperdrive. But if you wanted to swap out I'd go with the foggers.

Small spaces are a PITA, look for root volume where you can get it. Its very important to have the roots above all hanging freely in the void.

Speaking of which, it is sort of like the light issue.

I have found that vegging and flowering under a 1K HPS Full Spectrum results in very short fat swat plants. Such as:

Whereas I find I like a little stretch with my new 600 digi first, then the 1K comes out.



The same can be thought of for the roots. The first period of growth is to establish long healthy tap roots that feed the structure of the plant. Then, the hairy laterals (Fish Bones) pop out at the same time as your buds set up. See the co-relation? So those hairy laterals feed the buds, this is the beauty of True Aero verse all others. All others can get you to the long thick braids of tap roots, but few can truly ventilate the laterals.

Example:

and

Bam!

Others can only offer you this:

Which is why I refer to those as NFT systems, as those are Tap Roots not Lateral bud roots.

However you can grow your roots the same as your canopy, short and squat, long and lush, it is entirely up to the TAG Master.

 

[KinBudz]

Intresting Pod Racer, I'm very impressed to see such good results from your HPS, I will have to retest my theroy once I get these rigs up. Hey Pod, have I ever told you, you have sexy roots.. lol

gmanwho - I think the best cheap 65psi pump you can get is the shurflow 5.7 ac version.. usually get em for about 150 bux, check your rv stores. Just make sure it's got five bolts on the front and not four. I to would like to go to above 100 psi but, I'm gona let some other peeps guinnea pig that first.. lol..

...and so the weekend begins...

 

[Pod Racer]

Confessions and Penance

Confessions and Penance

Well, I have just discovered I have been leading you all astray on my pump advice. I was incorrect I am not using an Aquatec as originally stated, but an AquaJet.



Aquajet ES "Effiecient Series" Variable Speed Water Pump to be precise, the 110 A/C version. No wonder I couldn't find it online.

Something like this, and yeah, I paid like $278 for mine 2 years ago.
the pump

To make matters worse I purchased the 7800 booster pump, that doesn't work worth shit! Do not use Booster pumps. I have found the uptake has got to have a positive pressure for them to work at all and they don't move enough volume. I didn't realize that the .5 gallons to 1 gallon per minute was not going to be enough.

So, I paid 100 bucks for a sad lesson (Number One)

Then I ran, not walked as I have rooted clones sitting in a cloner for like 3 weeks now, to get an $82 utility pump from HD thinking that would suffice until I could get a VSD again. Suffice to say about $100 later (now $200) and several fittings to redo my new rig's plumbing to have it not have enough juice to do anything but dribble. Useless!

Lesson Two

Then, I ran out to my garage to grab my sprinkler pump Flotec to have it run once (again refitting pvc and hoses) to have the same inability to suck the water from the rig to the pump for the second cycle.

Shit.. Lesson Three... I quit.



So, I'm going to have to rig something for the clones until I can get my fucking Carbon Copy pump ...cause it has been sweet for 2 years now.

Get one of Dim, or that 5.7 VSD version...fuck the boosters and pantie waste sprinklers. DIA Pump is where it is at, no doubt.

Lesson Four.

I'm done.

 

[gmanwho]

PR: Pumps and more pumps. Sorry to hear about your troubles there. There are alot of pumps out there. I myself am trying to pick out a pump for my 35 gal rubbremaid, with possible idea of future expansion. Trying to pick one is rather difficult. I found a 115v shur flow, 1.6gph with max 100psi. @ 100psi it is rated at only .8 gpm. $145.

No sprinkler or booster pumps. Understood.
Only problem above is its 3/8 inlet outlet, i know if i put a 3/8 to 1/2 fitting it will drop my pressure greatly on the output PSI.

Dont think there is readily available 3/8 pvc either.

Humm, so i think i should stick to 1/2 outlet? What do u think? This way I know it can produce ??psi with th 1/2outlet.

want 115v, i less transformer to buy, plus 1 less thing to go wrong.

Any thoughts..

B-safe

 

[Pod Racer]

Well that is just it, by the time you get all the shit together to make the other ones work as well, you've spent nearly 200 bucks and might as well just bit the bullet and gotten the Variable speed version.

Lord knows I have no desire to rig a regulator, solenoid valve and accum. tank...christ! So, back to the search for the ES Aquatec model in some carnation.

 

[KinBudz]

Pumps Pumps and more Pumps...

Pumps Pumps and more Pumps...

hey Pod, the Aquajet ES is made by aquatec.. hehe... confusing I know...

http://www.aquatec.com/rvpump.htm

the specs for the one I think you have are..

ES-AQUAJET
A) 3.4 GPH @ 0 PSI
B) 3 GPM @ 10 PSI
C) 1.6 GPM @ 40 PSI
D) 1 GPM @ 50 PSI
E) 0.6 GPM @ 65 PSI
MAX LIQUID TEMP. 140 F
MAX MOTOR TEMP. 145 F
RUN DRY CAPABLE YES
SELF PRIMING 10 FT


Now the one I have been eyeing for a while, but I think your saying is not worth the money is this one...

http://www.aquatec.com/delivery.htm

the 7800 series.. it's specs are...
A) .61 GPM @ 40 PSI
B) .48 GPM @ 80 PSI
C) .24 GPM @ 130 PSI
MAX LIQUID TEMP. 170 F
MAX MOTOR TEMP. 145 F
OPEN FLOW .79 GPM
RUN DRY CAPABLE YES
SELF PRIMING UP TO 4.5 FT


Now if I'm doing the math correctly.. I come up with this...

The white misters your recommended are

0.9 GPH@100 PSI

most high pressure pumps are rated in GPM so...

.9 GPH would be .015 GPM

so say you wanted 12 misters, you would multiply 12 x .015 = .18

okay so if the specs on the above pumps are correct then the aquatec 7800 should run 12 misters at above 130 psi.. if the specs are right then I would think you would have to run even more misters than 12 to keep the pump from exceding 130 psi.

However, I have not been able to find out if the 7800 series pump requires pressure in order to operate at those high psi's. Is says self priming up to 4.5 ft, so I would think it would not need pressure.... blah...

Anyway so is this the same 7800 pump your talking about Pod Racer? And if so then are the ES-Aquajet's the best pump you have found so far?

Thanks guys.. I just want to find a good pump that works right and stop wasting money.... lol.. l8

 

[Pod Racer]

I'm running like 21 foggers, and what I found was that the 'booster' pumps draw the water up 3 feet and pressurize the line just enough to let the water trickle through the entire system. Apparently needing a lot more volume to hit the true spray I'm looking for.
I just realized that the Aquajet ES I'm running is a 3.3 version, it seems all the 'Variable Speed' 'Smart pumps' are around that volume 3.3 per minute or up to 5.7 on the 12 VDC Shurflo.

However there are the 'park models' which already have the AC plug and are rated 110.

There is a 550 version that goes upwards of 130 psi at 3.3 you can locate online for about $100. If you are not using less than 20 foggers, and maybe if you are, that version should suffice.

You only need to be at, or around, 50 psi. 100 is great, but not necessary as the 50 seems to hit the sweet spot. It just sucks all the Variables are still in the $200 range. Yikes!

Good luck.

 

[whereisbrianV.]

Stay away from Accumulator Tanks and solenoid valves unless you have a undersized pump for your misters. I ran a tank and valve on the TT-TAG and it gave me nothing but trouble. A tank full of 75psi water is DANGEROUS, if you valve goes bad and you have to get in to the lines you are going to take fire hose like spraying up the nose . I now prefer to keep pressure off my lines by cycling the power to the pump. If something starts to leak it only leaks when the pump is on instead of until the res is drained.

BTW- The tank went bad within 4 months and the valve followed a few weeks later. So if you do not HAVE to have them leave them out.

 

[whycombinator]

There's a shurflo 4.0 but it looks like it's just as expensive as the 5.7. I got two 5.7s for $320 and the 4.0s are $130-$170 right now on ebay.

 

[Pod Racer]

I ended up getting a 3.3 Flojet that will do 165 psi, no 'smart deal', but it was only 100 bucks and I've got 22 misters to run on this rig.

No desire to do the accum and sel valve, sort of like Ebb And Blow, just no need if there is a more practical and simpler solution.