Tom Hill making me do research again..

[vonforne]

I could be wrong, but I think it's more a case of bored stoners looking for a good debate, even if it's redundant. I mean, we do have fun, don't we?

That is what our community is for. We make learning fun.

And to get Mr. Hills opinion and MM all in one is priceless.

V

 

[VerdantGreen]

yeah growing good organic weed isn't about flushing, its about adding enough ferts but not too much. any 'concentrated' fert like guano can produce very nasty smoking weed if you add too much. used just right it can be fantastic for taste and yield.

organics is pretty forgiving, but less is more when it comes to ferts. always try to use the minimum.

VG

 

[Tom Hill]

Hi Microbeman,

Once nonhumic substances (or 1rst stage humus - carbs, proteins etc) decay via microbes (in the proper environment) into humic acids and bases (2nd stage, which I didn't leave out, though was admittedly brief), the process is mostly chemical, not biological - nothing more than water is required to complete ionization from the above 2nd stage. Forms of humus can act as a colloid in the soil, binding other charged particles like nitrates in storage for later use, but this only accounts for a fraction over the short term - and the short term is exactly what plants/soils/microbes concern themselves with each and every day. This is my understanding anyway. -T

 

[guest2012y]

I could be wrong, but I think it's more a case of bored stoners looking for a good debate, even if it's redundant. I mean, we do have fun, don't we?

I think so. It's really the best place to learn and have fun from my "stoner" perspective. There's a lot of valuable information being presented here by all kinds of people. How far we take this info.,or how much we apply it,just depends on us.
In the end the quality of the product speaks louder than we do.
Cool stuff guys.

 

[xmobotx]

i think an important element of these "flush" discussions is distinguishing between water "flushing" where excess water is used to leach excess nutrients out of the medium & starving in late flower where nutrients are fed up to mid flower or so and then straight water (but not to overflow) is given till finish leaving the plant to cannibalize itself for nutes needed to finish flowering

i would never flush a healthy container plant for any reason -the only time i advise it is when imbalances lock out nutes and you need to clean up a little and feed a balanced formula - and then i will only water to runoff, not "flush" as by giving 3-4 times enough water -maybe 1.5x~ish

however, i feed my slow release P sources early even in veg and rely on faster releasing P sources to mid flower then, "starve" the plant through late flower (even watering less)

 

[Yankee Grower]

As someone once said...the last check you write in life should bounce. Also important, from what I understand, to pick a plant just before it experiences drought stress and that's hard to do with saturated medium and a plant that's been 'drowned' for a period.

 

[guest2012y]

i think an important element of these "flush" discussions is distinguishing between water "flushing" where excess water is used to leach excess nutrients out of the medium & starving in late flower where nutrients are fed up to mid flower or so and then straight water (but not to overflow) is given till finish leaving the plant to cannibalize itself for nutes needed to finish flowering

i would never flush a healthy container plant for any reason -the only time i advise it is when imbalances lock out nutes and you need to clean up a little and feed a balanced formula - and then i will only water to runoff, not "flush" as by giving 3-4 times enough water -maybe 1.5x~ish

however, i feed my slow release P sources early even in veg and rely on faster releasing P sources to mid flower then, "starve" the plant through late flower (even watering less)

Man......I do the best I can at adding amendments bearing in mind the fact that each one will be broken down at a different rate. Keeping track of what you added,when you added it,and how much you added to the soil mix that is being perptually re-used,is the most important thing I feel I need to keep track of.
This along with observing what the plant does in each new round gives me the indicators of what I may need to do (or not do) throughout the cycle,as well as when I go to reuse it.
I try to run a balanced indoor soil mix,it seems to be happy with me. I treat it well,and the life forms (soil mites,pill bugs,worms,etc,etc,) that exist in it seem to be an indicator of the overall condition of it. Like canaries in a gold mine.

I like the cannibalized analogy xmo.

 

[Microbeman]

Hi Microbeman,

Once nonhumic substances (or 1rst stage humus - carbs, proteins etc) decay via microbes (in the proper environment) into humic acids and bases (2nd stage, which I didn't leave out, though was admittedly brief), the process is mostly chemical, not biological - nothing more than water is required to complete ionization from the above 2nd stage. Forms of humus can act as a colloid in the soil, binding other charged particles like nitrates in storage for later use -but this only accounts for a fraction over the short term- and the short term is exactly what plants/soils/microbes concern themselves with each and every day. This is my understanding anyway. -T

Hi Tom,

Sorry if I shortcut your explanation. As stated I do not disagree with your methods and 20 year old soil is great testimony to the microbial nutrient loop. In interests of clarity; in my school raw organic matter (such as falling plant matter) is utilized as a food source by one tier of microbes and is transformed into another food type known as humus which can be utilized by another tier of microbes. Humus (and in many regards compost) is a form of microbial food which is stable. [There may be (and probably is) an inbetween stage where raw organic matter is microbially mineralized and is directly available to plants but this likely occurs less frequently.] This stable humus is a source of food for the tier of microbes I described earlier which are responsible for feeding the plant. The ionization of the humus does take place microbially "(in the proper environment)" in the fashions described in my previous post but it is true that once in ionic form the nutrients are free flowing and carried to roots by water. Why don't the microbes just go to town and gobble down on all that good humus? Because the plant-life has some control over the microbial populations kinda like a farmer has control over livestock. When the plant is hungry for nitrogen she exudes carbon compounds with molecular bonds which feed a certain type of bacteria (or archaea) which then multiply like crazy [every 20 minutes] and in conjunction with fungi derive food from the stores of humus; this population explosion stimulates flagellate (or naked amoebae or bacterial feeding nematodes) to hatch out and divide like crazy [up to every 2 hours] and they begin consuming the bacteria/archaea. Not only does this control the bacterial/archaeal population (thereby conserving the humus) but they poo out ionized nutrients which directly feed the plant. There are many complexities involved but basically when the plant has had her fill she stops exuding bacterial food and sucks up any residual ionic nutrients which might get the bacteria going again, thereby starving out the bacterial (yes I mean archaeal too) population. This causes the bacteria to form dormant stages which in turn causes the flagellates, etc. and nematodes to also form dormant stages. In this way the humus is not all greedily gobbled up and the majority of nutrients are sequestered rather than being in ionic form where they could leach out.

Some good examples of humus like substances which sequester nutrients for years and years are sphagnum peat moss humus and Alaska humus. The nutrients are released when the substance comes in contact with living plants and the microbes come to life.

At least that's my take and I think it is logical to boot. I have posted citations regarding this stuff previously but I don't know where the heck they are. [google; Bonkowski & Clareholm & microbial loop]

Again, I cannot speak for feeding commercially over-processed amendments and mixing manures (besides worm manure that I know of) into your soil as these can confound the cycle because nature deals with these things on the surface.

 

[DARC MIND]

At least that's my take and I think it is logical to boot. I have posted citations regarding this stuff previously but I don't know where the heck they are. [google; Bonkowski & Clareholm & microbial loop]

was this it?
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3235047&postcount=218

 

[ocean_grown]

Oh wow! Thanks so much for your posts Tom.. While most of what you said went over my head I wonder if you might explain how one ensures that ionized salts are "tied up" by the end of harvest? The feeding schedule you posted sounded pretty similar to mine minus the catalysts or enzymes or whatever that earth juice stuff is, I might have to look into it for the next round..

 

[Microbeman]

was this it?
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3235047&postcount=218

Yes, that is one. Thanks Dark

 

[Microbeman]

I thought it would be helpful to point out that varying points of view on the assimilation factor of humus have a lot of influence on this discussion. Here are some links and excerpts;

This one from Rodale is well researched with boots in the field;

http://www.strauscom.com/rodale-whitepaper

Normal seasonal carbon dioxide fluctuations in the atmosphere demonstrate that plant growth governs major amounts of carbon dioxide, enough to change atmospheric concentration by up to 10 ppm. By increasing plant production, we can reduce carbon dioxide concentrations in the atmosphere. Carbon dioxide levels are minimized in summer when vegetation is lush, and maximized in winter when plants die or go dormant. The fluctuation of carbon dioxide from season to season (about 10 ppm) is about 7 times greater than the yearly average increase in atmospheric carbon from fossil fuel burning and deforestation (1.3 ppm). Plants serve as sinks for atmospheric carbon dioxide. Carbon stored in vegetation, soil, or the ocean, which is not readily released as carbon dioxide, is said to be sequestered. To balance the global carbon budget, we need to increase carbon sequestration and reduce carbon emissions. While carbon can cycle in and out of soil or biomass material, there are methods for building up what are called soil “humic” substances (also known as organic matter) that can remain as stable carbon compounds for thousands of years.



The presence of sequestered carbon in The Rodale Institute’s FST® organic field trials is an indicator of healthy soil because healthy soil is abundant in carbonaceous matter, in particular the organic material humus. It is humus that enables healthy soils to retain water during periods of drought; as well as retaining mobile nutrients found in soils such as phosphates and nitrates, that would otherwise be lost as runoff to streams and aquifers.

Parts of the text in this link appear to support Tom's presentation

http://www.fao.org/docrep/009/a0100e/a0100e05.htm

This I find most believable as it is presented and researched by farmers whose livlihood depends on its accuracy

http://www.ibiblio.org/steved/Luebke/Luebke-compost2.html

Humus is the end result of organic matter decomposition and recomposition by microbes. When fresh, undecomposed organic matter (green manures, animal manures, crop residues) is added to soil or placed in a compost pile, a rapid multiplication of soil microorganisms takes place.

Certain microbes (bacteria, fungi, and actinomycetes) break this raw organic matter down into smaller particles (gums, waxes, lignins) resistant to further decay and simple organic compounds (sugars, amino acids) that are water soluble. Following the breakdown phase, a second group of microbes bind these materials together, especially lignins and microbial biomass, into more stable humic substances (fulvic acid, humic acid, humins) in the buildup phase.

The physical, chemical, and biological transfomation of raw organic matter into a complex humic substance is known as humification. Friable humus (also known as effective humus or nutritive humus), which supplies slow-release nutrients over a period of weeks or months, is a short-chain humic compound. Stable humus (also known as permanent humus), which has a half-life of years and may be viewed as the soil humus bank, is a long-chain humic compound.

When conditions are optimal, microbes attach these long-chain humic compounds to the clay fraction, resulting in clay-humus crumb. These clay-humus crumbs are full of "nooks and crannies" which provide shelter for soil microorganisms. The enormous surface area and negative charge associated with clay-humus provides exchange sites for cations, and building soil humus is one of the few ways farmers can actually increase the cation exchange capacity (CEC) of soils. Clay-humus crumbs are highly desirable in building soil tilth and maintaining good soil structure and water holding capacity.

The goal of humus management is to arrive at an active, high-quality humus that is insoluble in water and therefore resists leaching of nutrients.

Instead, nutrients are released through mineralization, a process driven by secretion of weak acids from plant roots and microbial action. In a healthy soil system, the Luebkes propose an interactive feedback loop exists whereby plants secrete root exudates that tell soil microbes what they need. In response, soil microbes regulate mineralization and feeding of crop plants.

 

[NUG-JUG]

The feeding schedule you posted sounded pretty similar to mine minus the catalysts or enzymes or whatever that earth juice stuff is, I might have to look into it for the next round..

It's bottled crack, just buy blackstrap molasses, but the good stuff. It's the same thing minus some feathermeal or whatever stupid drop of magic they add.

 

[NUG-JUG]

The plant does not leave behind soluble nutrients of any significance and the nutrients unused remain sequestered in the humus. This is the whole point of nature doing it this way, I surmise.

These are vegging in re-used soil with some lime added. The harvested plants finished yellow in the same soil. It's obviously not humus, but I'm sure full of life. It's the first time I've re-used any. The long term cycling of it is what concerns me.

 

[xmobotx]

As someone once said...the last check you write in life should bounce. Also important, from what I understand, to pick a plant just before it experiences drought stress and that's hard to do with saturated medium and a plant that's been 'drowned' for a period.

my thinking as well and a good analogy - precisely why i mentioned water "starving"

Man......I do the best I can at adding amendments bearing in mind the fact that each one will be broken down at a different rate. Keeping track of what you added,when you added it,and how much you added to the soil mix that is being perptually re-used,is the most important thing I feel I need to keep track of.
This along with observing what the plant does in each new round gives me the indicators of what I may need to do (or not do) throughout the cycle,as well as when I go to reuse it.
I try to run a balanced indoor soil mix,it seems to be happy with me. I treat it well,and the life forms (soil mites,pill bugs,worms,etc,etc,) that exist in it seem to be an indicator of the overall condition of it. Like canaries in a gold mine.

I like the cannibalized analogy xmo.

the most recent evolution of thought went: bat guano @ early flower, then flower tea and molasses, and another flower tea then water only to finish (maybe a later dose of molasses for sweetness?)
i figured do feed every time and water for last few waterings instead of every other (feed/water/feed/water) -maybe only really dropping the final watering (not just drought the plant to death)

edit* -i meant to add something about using up the nutes giving you a more stable "starter mix" when recycling soil

 

[Microbeman]

The long term cycling of it is what concerns me.

That's what topdressing is for.

(maybe a later dose of molasses for sweetness?)

sweetness? carbs maybe.

i figured do feed every time and water for last few waterings instead of every other (feed/water/feed/water) -maybe only really dropping the final watering (not just drought the plant to death)

There is a saying; 'Anyone who knows beans about chilly, knows there ain't no beans in chilly'

I was trying to compose something similar about organic growing 'Anybody who knows anything about organics knows you feed the microbes, not the plants' ??

 

[OrganicMonkey]

Salts just means acids, I don't even know how many different forms of NPK salts there are. I've had great results never flushing organics, the PPM's usually get knocked back around harvest anyhow. Not going to have a zero TDS reading with soil plants and not have problems. With hydro, a 'true flush' is more possible but I wouldn't want to run to many days at a zero ppm.

 

[xmobotx]

I was trying to compose something similar about organic growing 'Anybody who knows anything about organics knows you feed the microbes, not the plants' ??

dammit you're right - i keep forgetting that when these things start going through my mind - good balanced (living) soil just works