T
treefrog
You see, towards the end of a cycle, the micro-herd gets all lathered up from all that hard work. They need a good hosing off. I guess some of us just care about our herd more than others..
Tom Hill making me do research again..
- Thread starter ocean_grown
- Start date
Capt.Cheeze
Actually boiling roots DOES work - big time. The deal is though that you have to use a particular water. Regular ol' water (even aerated) doesn't work.
Water must be collected under a full moon on the 10th day of Never and hauled back in a 15-year old Volvo. Boiling must be accomplished by burning cannabis branches from the grow.
Seriously! It really works! I wouldn't lie to you!
CC
Actually boiling roots DOES work - big time. The deal is though that you have to use a particular water. Regular ol' water (even aerated) doesn't work.
Water must be collected under a full moon on the 10th day of Never and hauled back in a 15-year old Volvo. Boiling must be accomplished by burning cannabis branches from the grow.
Seriously! It really works! I wouldn't lie to you!
CC
Oh hell no....no no no no no! I KNOW because I spent several years barefoot standing around cabins at undisclosed locations watching bikers and hippies spin in circles and run their hogs through the front doors and shoot mini-14's at the roots which were wrapped with the very burlap that the Colombian gold came in.
Flushing well cared for organic soil is nearly as debatable as something this silly. But yes,I saw all that crazy shit including the wrapped roots (minus the shooting at the roots).
Bass Akwards
Member
It Certainly Does Work ... ( but not what you think )
It Certainly Does Work ... ( but not what you think )
Here's the deal:
Back in the day, even Mexican seeds wouldn't reliably flower, much less bud up the way we now expect.
That meant that most domestic grow was mostly leaf ... and the real trick was to keep it from tasting like crap.
Sticking root balls in hot or boiling water shocks the leaves stomata closed tight. When the plants are hung upside down in a dim barn or shed, the combination of the large lower leaves hanging over most of the plant, and the closed stomata, slows down the drying process. The slower the cure, the better the weed tasted.
The better it tasted, the more you'd smoke, and the higher you'd get.
The outdoor guerilla grower anthem? ... "Flushing is for Fairies".
It Certainly Does Work ... ( but not what you think )
Here's the deal:
Back in the day, even Mexican seeds wouldn't reliably flower, much less bud up the way we now expect.
That meant that most domestic grow was mostly leaf ... and the real trick was to keep it from tasting like crap.
Sticking root balls in hot or boiling water shocks the leaves stomata closed tight. When the plants are hung upside down in a dim barn or shed, the combination of the large lower leaves hanging over most of the plant, and the closed stomata, slows down the drying process. The slower the cure, the better the weed tasted.
The better it tasted, the more you'd smoke, and the higher you'd get.
The outdoor guerilla grower anthem? ... "Flushing is for Fairies".
This is the FIRST time I've heard a believable reason this practice actually may make sense. Since I've never witnessed the stomata closing under a microscope as the root ball goes into boiling water ......I must remain in doubt. But there are people here who use microscopes. The trick is to convince them to try it and see if it holds any validation.....
Seeing is believing as they say....I'm just glad we have better stuff to work with these days.
Stoned Crow
Member
I must admit, one time after harvest I attempted to flush the trim down the toilet.....SC
NUG-JUG
Member
Dude!! I drive a 92 Volvo 740 Wagon It will fit a lot of water!
Now I just have to wait for the tenth day of never.
ocean_grown
Member
Wow this thread was hilarious, thanks for the jokes and snippets of solid info..
Hi you guys,
Let me clarify a few things regarding some of my thoughts on this and a brief rundown of my understanding of the organic soil cycle.
Enter organic matter (dead plants,animals,bugs etc). Providing conditions are met, bacteria, fungi etc, will break this matter down/decay into carbs, proteins, fats etc. Some of these conditions are proper moisture, oxygen, temps, and of course - pH. Mountains of research has been done (this is not theory, these are the facts) not only outlining tolerable ranges of environments for these organisms to exist, but also more specific ranges where they thrive and do their jobs most efficiently - so-called niche environments.
Anyway proteins, carbs, etc, further break down into simpler compounds - the end product is humic acids (nitric, carbonic, etc) and humic bases (calcium hydroxide etc). Acid + base = salts (calcium carbonate, potassium sulphate, etc). When salts dissolve in water their pos/neg charges break, then ionized elements are freed in solution to be utilized by plants.
It is the organic soil cycle itself that manufactures salts, there is just no getting around that. But too much is not good.
Because they are soluble, salts can be leached/flushed from the medium, but imo, it may be better to use them up, or tie them up. I don't like the idea of getting soil that wet, not with a plant in it. Taking water saturation to near 100% field capacity let alone beyond is not advised in anything but the very lightest of mediums. If I had to leach in the middle of a grow I probably did something very wrong along the way. It's (a heavy leaching anyway) is kind of a panicked out last resource move imo.
The health of the soil, how much salts it is producing, how much the plant can utilize those factors is governed by what we add to the soil, how healthy the plant is, where we fall in those environmental ranges etc, etc. Advice is difficult to give, except don't be afraid of meters, they are quite useful in making semi-educated decisions. Some of the sites I am working with this year have 20yrs+ old soil I built on site, and it is still very productive by every definition.
Here is a typical rundown of approximately where I want to be (again, in my typical set of environmental parameters, large volumes of soil, pH 6.7, 80f, no steeping or bubbling, etc). I will use the primal harvest (guano) as an example as it was mentioned, and I have ran and metered it. It seems to take about 5-7 days to reach its maximum output w/the recommended addition of earth juice catalyst (cat), 7-10 days w/out the catalyst - with gradually declining but lingering effects for 30days+/-.
About a week before flowering I use 1/2 recommended dose of the guano, and full strenth cat. I gradually work my way up to full strength guano about the 2nd week into flower (to be available in the 3rd), peaking out with a couple of consecutive 1 to 1.5x recommended doses in the 4th week to be available in the 5th - that's about where I want to max out, that 5th week or so. No more guano after the 4th week, but full strength cat continues through the 6th to help activate all remaining food and tie-up excess salts. Then water only for the 7,8, and 9th weeks. My goal is to be running on pretty much empty by the finish line. -T
Let me clarify a few things regarding some of my thoughts on this and a brief rundown of my understanding of the organic soil cycle.
Enter organic matter (dead plants,animals,bugs etc). Providing conditions are met, bacteria, fungi etc, will break this matter down/decay into carbs, proteins, fats etc. Some of these conditions are proper moisture, oxygen, temps, and of course - pH. Mountains of research has been done (this is not theory, these are the facts) not only outlining tolerable ranges of environments for these organisms to exist, but also more specific ranges where they thrive and do their jobs most efficiently - so-called niche environments.
Anyway proteins, carbs, etc, further break down into simpler compounds - the end product is humic acids (nitric, carbonic, etc) and humic bases (calcium hydroxide etc). Acid + base = salts (calcium carbonate, potassium sulphate, etc). When salts dissolve in water their pos/neg charges break, then ionized elements are freed in solution to be utilized by plants.
It is the organic soil cycle itself that manufactures salts, there is just no getting around that. But too much is not good.
Because they are soluble, salts can be leached/flushed from the medium, but imo, it may be better to use them up, or tie them up. I don't like the idea of getting soil that wet, not with a plant in it. Taking water saturation to near 100% field capacity let alone beyond is not advised in anything but the very lightest of mediums. If I had to leach in the middle of a grow I probably did something very wrong along the way. It's (a heavy leaching anyway) is kind of a panicked out last resource move imo.
The health of the soil, how much salts it is producing, how much the plant can utilize those factors is governed by what we add to the soil, how healthy the plant is, where we fall in those environmental ranges etc, etc. Advice is difficult to give, except don't be afraid of meters, they are quite useful in making semi-educated decisions. Some of the sites I am working with this year have 20yrs+ old soil I built on site, and it is still very productive by every definition.
Here is a typical rundown of approximately where I want to be (again, in my typical set of environmental parameters, large volumes of soil, pH 6.7, 80f, no steeping or bubbling, etc). I will use the primal harvest (guano) as an example as it was mentioned, and I have ran and metered it. It seems to take about 5-7 days to reach its maximum output w/the recommended addition of earth juice catalyst (cat), 7-10 days w/out the catalyst - with gradually declining but lingering effects for 30days+/-.
About a week before flowering I use 1/2 recommended dose of the guano, and full strenth cat. I gradually work my way up to full strength guano about the 2nd week into flower (to be available in the 3rd), peaking out with a couple of consecutive 1 to 1.5x recommended doses in the 4th week to be available in the 5th - that's about where I want to max out, that 5th week or so. No more guano after the 4th week, but full strength cat continues through the 6th to help activate all remaining food and tie-up excess salts. Then water only for the 7,8, and 9th weeks. My goal is to be running on pretty much empty by the finish line. -T
T
treefrog
Good stuff! I hope people note the difference between this and 'flushing' though..
V
vonforne
Hi Mr. Hill, Thanks for stopping in and giving us some insight into your growing style and experience.
I liked this the best out of what you have written.
That is why gang you must keep the soil Health and Happy. Generally, the micro organisms will sequester minerals and nutrients with in the soil but as Mr. Hill has stated that if that is not maintained (the soil health) that there will become a toxicity in the soil (excessive salts) that will require us to ´flush`it.
I keep my soil healthy so the only thing I need to flush is the toilet.
V
I liked this the best out of what you have written.
That is why gang you must keep the soil Health and Happy. Generally, the micro organisms will sequester minerals and nutrients with in the soil but as Mr. Hill has stated that if that is not maintained (the soil health) that there will become a toxicity in the soil (excessive salts) that will require us to ´flush`it.
I keep my soil healthy so the only thing I need to flush is the toilet.
V
Impressive Tom.....It's cool to see someone in your position taking it to this level.
I like to think I exhaust the availability of food for the micro organisims by the end simply by ceasing to feed them somewhere around 3 to 4 weeks in(variety depending),except that some things like the P. guano and kelp take longer than a cycle to break down. I am far from a micro-herd cowboy in controlling what exactly happens at what time,yet I can slow the process and control the amount of food I make available.
20 year old productive soil is quite a reward for putting that amount of time and care into it. Cool
I like to think I exhaust the availability of food for the micro organisims by the end simply by ceasing to feed them somewhere around 3 to 4 weeks in(variety depending),except that some things like the P. guano and kelp take longer than a cycle to break down. I am far from a micro-herd cowboy in controlling what exactly happens at what time,yet I can slow the process and control the amount of food I make available.
20 year old productive soil is quite a reward for putting that amount of time and care into it. Cool
Hi Tom,
I do not wish to knock your growing style but you have left out a very big step. The microbial process you have described is the process by which organic matter is transformed into humus or compost. Once humus/compost is created nutrients are sequestered and not soluble/salts as you have stated. There are several microbial processes which transform humus/compost into ionic (soluble/salts) form so they can be uptaken by roots. In order of typical magnitude; 1/ bacteria are consumed by protozoa (primarily flagellates and naked amoebae) and bacterial feeding nematodes which eliminate up to 70% of what they consume in ionic form (plant available) nutrients 2/ certain types of fungal hyphae (primarily mycorrhizae) deliver ionic form nutrient directly to the roots 3/ certain bacteria and archaea are nutrient fixers and provide ionic form nutrients to the rhyzosphere. The large player in this cycle is the plant which through molecular feedback can determine and control to a large degree the ionic form nutrient available in the rhyzosphere. This is why it is called a cycle. This microbial-plant nutrient cycle is not a theory. " Mountains of research has been done (this is not theory, these are the facts)" [sic] The plant does not leave behind soluble nutrients of any significance and the nutrients unused remain sequestered in the humus. This is the whole point of nature doing it this way, I surmise.
A good example of this is that I can grow a plant in practically pure (vermi)compost (or humus) right through to harvest. It derives all the necessary nutrients for vegetation and flower, turning yellow, etc. I can then plant a rooted cutting in the same compost and the new plant will derive nitrogen for new growth. [BTW before someone says the obvious one would logically topdress new organic matter, etc. for the rest of the life of the second plant]
EDIT: I thought I better add that the above is dependent on completely natural growing processes and any additions of soluble nutrients can confuse things.
MM...you rock! Not above my comprehension,but clearly above my past perception of the matter.
When I start getting into this stuff combined with my elephant in the other room,my head hurts.....so I "KISS".
To all of us who think it's any other way,we clearly have some research to do if we are going to get on a canna-forum and debate this stuff.
When I start getting into this stuff combined with my elephant in the other room,my head hurts.....so I "KISS".
To all of us who think it's any other way,we clearly have some research to do if we are going to get on a canna-forum and debate this stuff.
Bass Akwards
Member
Don't forget ...
Don't forget ...
Don't forget to stir the water counterclockwise.
( and line your ball-cap with quilted aluminum foil )
Don't forget ...
Don't forget to stir the water counterclockwise.
( and line your ball-cap with quilted aluminum foil )
Depending on which hemisphere you live in. Also,from my experience the old WW 2 style helmets work much better at keeping out the......you know,the stuff from "them/they"
Y
Yankee Grower
That's pretty much how I feel. Nice post overall Tom...thx.
One thing I wanted to add is if you're focused on dealing with Na buildup/concentrations Tainio Technologies has a bacterial product which converts Na to K through biological transmutation. I recommend you at least check into it.
jdkronyk101
Active member
thanks tom
thanks tom
thanks tom for chiming in. and as was stated many times above many organic recipes will naturally be running on empty by harvest time. in that case no flushing/leaching needed as its already been done naturally. and the catylyst helps with that as well. im no microscientist so i appreciate the detailed explanation. but if it wasnt done right the 10-20 year beds used season after season wouldnt work right.
that was all i tried to convey, but i fell into a crowd of flush/leach conspiracy theorists...lol and wasnt aware that this is such a touchy subject. i appreciate all the input and thanks to mmman for his input. also thanks to all those antiflushers too without all of us , icmag truly wouldnt be a community.
regards
jd
thanks tom
thanks tom for chiming in. and as was stated many times above many organic recipes will naturally be running on empty by harvest time. in that case no flushing/leaching needed as its already been done naturally. and the catylyst helps with that as well. im no microscientist so i appreciate the detailed explanation. but if it wasnt done right the 10-20 year beds used season after season wouldnt work right.
that was all i tried to convey, but i fell into a crowd of flush/leach conspiracy theorists...lol and wasnt aware that this is such a touchy subject. i appreciate all the input and thanks to mmman for his input. also thanks to all those antiflushers too without all of us , icmag truly wouldnt be a community.
regards
jd
T
treefrog
I could be wrong, but I think it's more a case of bored stoners looking for a good debate, even if it's redundant. I mean, we do have fun, don't we?
