The Problem with Ultrasonic Foggers

[Dankbudd]

Thank you so much oldmac...

-How often do you need too refill the 5 gal jugs? (aero/fog)

-I was thinking of reusing the water and changing it every 5 days... Is it personal preference to water to waste, or did you run into problems?

-You said that you have the aero off during lights out, why is that?

-I Was thinking of using the same tables for veg and flower and making a frame with wheels for the trays to move them from room to room. Do you think the misters and fog would be adequate to produce new roots for clones? I also plan on having misters from above running time to time, in veg and early flower.

Thanks again...

 

[Oldmac]

Yo Dankbudd, here's round 2 of answers,

Thank you so much oldmac...

-How often do you need too refill the 5 gal jugs? (aero/fog)
A jug lasts 2+ days (filled slightly over the 5 gal mark). The jugs have a cap that has a smaller opening that can be removed and I have one cap that has in place 2 small rigid plastic tubes that allow the 1/4" tubing to go to the bottom without curving. One line is the suction side for pump (with an a check valve on the bottom of tube so when changing jugs the line stays filled) the other is the return. I use multiple jugs so changing is a matter of changing caps from one jug to the next.

-I was thinking of reusing the water and changing it every 5 days... Is it personal preference to water to waste, or did you run into problems?
I've been doing hydro for 20+ years now, first major build was a NFT system using long narrow gutter trays. Many problems but very much a learning experience. Besides having problems with water/nute return when the plant's roots blocked trays causing the rez not to be big enough (had to modify trays) the rez casued two major porblems, heat and PH. The heat was still a problem even with an external pump, finnally figured out it was heat from the airation system, air from a compressor raises the ambient air intake temp. Plus constant monitoring and chasing of PH and PPM became a PIA. Next system was rockwool based and that's when I discovered the joy of drip to waste, I'd never go back to a rez based system again.

-You said that you have the aero off during lights out, why is that?
Mostly for stealth, the "fogfognugen" trays were designed for a partnered grow that is located in a hidden basement of a barn, and every time the pump cycled it sounded like a garage door opener. Very brief run times but occurs at precise intervals, so anybody in the barn noticed it and that something was going on. Lights out are durring the day when workers or others could be in the barn and that was not good, but when we realized the frapa fogger could handle the dark period well that became the answer. No more trying to kid people that the noise was the cooling system of the nuclear reactor in the barn. LOL
BTW the main reason for the two systems was for redundancy so if one stopped working the other would keep things alive. Insurance against the loss of high value crops. I should also note I've come across a quieter pump built by Aquatec for Duraclean and comes with a 200psi limit switch, you can dial in 180-190psi without removing the limit switch.

-I Was thinking of using the same tables for veg and flower and making a frame with wheels for the trays to move them from room to room. Do you think the misters and fog would be adequate to produce new roots for clones? I also plan on having misters from above running time to time, in veg and early flower.
Clonning in the same trays is very possible. In fact I've built smaller trays for people for small personal use and that is exactly what they do. It also eliminates aero droop and was the reason why I HAD to modify the 2- Ez-clonners to be aero, to have roots ready to accept aero at start of flowering. This is the one time I suggest recirculating the RO water, place drain line back to the RO jug so that the rooting hormones the cuttings make are not lost. Plus during clonning your cycle times need to be shorter, 5sec bursts followed 30sec off times. (that is just a starting point, you may need shorter/longer off times...trial and adjustments are in order)

Thanks again...
You are very welcome. I like that people are interested in aero or aero/fog and if you go in that direction I want you to succeed at it.

OM

 

[Dankbudd]

One more for you OM

How long do you have to veg, for them to get 8-10" tall?

 

[Oldmac]

It takes about 10-14 days from after roots are established. So, depending on strain and it's ability to root 2 weeks to 3 weeks tops.
Keep in mind your mileage my vary.
OM

 

[Dankbudd]

Hey OM,

- I use bud boosters in RW (Bud blood, Big bud, and Overdrive) do you think these are necessary in your setup?

- What kind of temps (air/water) do you like to have inside the trays/jugs?

- Is there any retailers for the frapaplas, or do I have to contact them directly to order?

Thanks...

 

[Oldmac]

Yo dankbudd,

IMHO they are not necessary. I don't believe in additives, I think that a good nutrient should have everything needed to grow and that includes calcium and magnesium. When you start to add anything you need to add the NPK numbers of all the additives to the nutrients and see what they total. Many times this is the source of over fertilizing with certian nutrients.

We shoot for abt 10-15 degrees less then canopy temps. (I was just discussing this on another thread). A root zone of 70F with a canopy temp of 85F seems to be our optimum.

None that I'm aware of. This might give you some concern, while Mr. Wolfe is very nice man to deal with you will have to fill out NAFTA paper work if you are located in the US. That means providing a federal ID # if you are a company or as an individual a Social Security number. I've bought 3 so far over the years and provided my personal info, but my shipping address is different from my grow address. Keep in mind tho that these things are used more for other purposes then growing and that buying a fogger is far from illegal or incriminating. Last price was $629cdn, and I used an international money order.

OM

 

[Dankbudd]

How you feel about the (K.I.S.S) method just using maxibloom? For your kind of setup...

 

[Oldmac]

I subscribe to the K.I.S.S. method.

I suppose that it would be OK, but I have no personal experience with it. So it is difficult for me to recomend or not recomend it.

OM

 

[Dankbudd]

Hey OM,

Few more for yea...

-On each 5 gal jug to last 2+ days, what are you running Aero and fog together or one out of one jug to last that long? Trying to figure out how much water is used each day per 4x4 tray with both aero/fog running...

-I'm thinking of running an accumulator tank, to keep the on/off cycles to a minimum for the pump. Do you run a tank on your setup?

-On each 4x4 tray do you only have two fog ports coming in, and do you use any screen mesh to keep roots from entering through the pipes? (besides the cover on the inside, that i see in your album) PS: What kind of cover is it?

Thank you....

 

[Me2]

By my reckoning OM`s hydraulic nozzles (8x PJ-12 @ 200psi) on a 5second 15minute cycle are using about 1.62gal per tray over 12hrs, a 5gal jug should last around 3 days.
Depending where you live. accumulators are commonly available upto 25-bar (367psi), given the choice i`d opt for a 16-bar (232psi) accumulator because 25-bar rated hardware is a lot more expensive.

 

[Dankbudd]

Thanks Me2 for the info....

 

[Oldmac]

I've been busy this past week, camping out as it were at a hospice patient's house trying to use (w/success) edibles and tintures to relieve his physical and mental pain.

@ Me2; while I have never tried to calculate the gal/hr thru the nozzles only, it seems to be much less then even 1/2 of your calculations. A 5gal jug (actually almost 6) lasts 2 days for 4 trays. Usage has gone up with the change in frequency from 1/2hr off times to 15mins (it doubled) and we are not sure it is justified....after more then 3 months it does not seem to add to finished plant mass. Thanks for trying to calculate it tho for Dankbudd.

Hey OM,

Few more for yea...

-On each 5 gal jug to last 2+ days, what are you running Aero and fog together or one out of one jug to last that long? Trying to figure out how much water is used each day per 4x4 tray with both aero/fog running...

The aero and fog systems draw from the same jug during lights on, there is a smaller tranfer pump set to 40psi that feeds the Frapper fogger. At lights off, the aero side is not used and the Frapaplas fogger switches over via solenoids to receiving RO water only, directly from the RO system output. There is a small (1 pint?) resivior on the fogger that gets used up during this time.

-I'm thinking of running an accumulator tank, to keep the on/off cycles to a minimum for the pump. Do you run a tank on your setup?

No, since it does not increase psi to the nozzles I did not bother. I had a concern about pump life, especially since I run the pump with out any pressure switch and well above it's psi rating. But 2 1/2 years later the spare pump has yet to be out of the box. Same for the fogger, we have a spare but it has not been needed.

-On each 4x4 tray do you only have two fog ports coming in, and do you use any screen mesh to keep roots from entering through the pipes? (besides the cover on the inside, that i see in your album) PS: What kind of cover is it?

The only covers are those spa covers. They are used in spa's and jacuzzi's. They are called "inlet bulkhead spa covers" and are a complete assembly of a bulhead fitting and cover. They are usually used on the suction side of spa's to keep debri, swimsuits or people parts out of the suction side of the pump. BTW one inlet per tray is probably enough, since adding another or more does not increase the amount of fog available.

Thank you....

As I mentioned above, even tho we have doubled the aero events, there does not appear to be any improvements in plant production. This indicates to me that we are "over watering" to some degree. We see this also in the waste jug that needs dumping more often.

Nozzle/pump and fogger times are a place for experimenting, trail and adjustment is the order of the day. Since the root zone is pretty air tight the humidity there does not decrease rapidly, just condensation takes place. So each next cycle does not take very much to increase humidity back to 98+%.

Hope this helps you out.

OM

 

[cyat]

hey Oldmac, how do the ti led's compare to your hps tables? I almost got some of those years ago, are they still cutting edge?

 

[Me2]

@ Me2; while I have never tried to calculate the gal/hr thru the nozzles only, it seems to be much less then even 1/2 of your calculations. A 5gal jug (actually almost 6) lasts 2 days for 4 trays. Usage has gone up with the change in frequency from 1/2hr off times to 15mins (it doubled) and we are not sure it is justified....after more then 3 months it does not seem to add to finished plant mass. Thanks for trying to calculate it tho for Dankbudd.



As I mentioned above, even tho we have doubled the aero events, there does not appear to be any improvements in plant production. This indicates to me that we are "over watering" to some degree. We see this also in the waste jug that needs dumping more often.

Nozzle/pump and fogger times are a place for experimenting, trail and adjustment is the order of the day. Since the root zone is pretty air tight the humidity there does not decrease rapidly, just condensation takes place. So each next cycle does not take very much to increase humidity back to 98+%.

Hope this helps you out.

OM

Hi OM
I used the bete spec sheet.
http://www.bete.com/pdfs/BETE_PJ.pdf
It says the PJ-12`s are 3.06gph @ 200psi but i guess if they are seeing significantly less than 200psi at the nozzle that would account for the reduced consumption. I always test the real flowrate of nozzles by weighing a dry poly bag and then firing a misting pulse into it of known duration. Its just a case of re-weighing the wet bag to find the amount of water delivered in the misting pulse. I use digital scales with a resolution of 0.001g

Using relative humidity as a yardstick for root moisture isnt much use as RH measures water in a gaseous state rather than liquid. My chamber stays around the mid-nineties pretty constantly, i haven`t seen any correlation of the RH versus the roots appearing slightly too wet or slightly too dry. I make timing adjustments based on how many droplets are sitting on the roots just before the next mist pulse.. the ideal number is none

 

[Oldmac]

Hey all, I've been busy spending a lot of time with a certian hospice patient. It is the first time I've been able to work with edibiles and tinture's with a patient and that has envolved my being with the patient much more then usual.

@ Me2, like I said I never did do calculations for water consumption but charted it when setting up the first tray. I am not involved with the day to day running of "fogfognugen" so I need to be carefull what I say, since sometimes things change that I am not aware of. Over the next few days when I get the chance I will go check it out. Your answer has me curious about nozzle pressure, especially if it is less at some point then others. The pressure guage is mounted at the pump outlet....I'm now curious to see what it is at nozzles.

@ cyat, next month will mark 4 years since I bought the first pair of TIs problooms. Hard to say that they are still cutting edge, I have not seen too many LED lights tho that compare. I have a friend using a small aero/fog tray I built that is using a Lumigrow 330 that works very much like the TI, plus has the added advantage of adjustable red/blue. Since he is using the tray from cuttings thru flower this is a major advantage.
I had plans to build a 1000w (nominal) LED 4 bar light, but after designing it and ready to build LedEngines discontinued the 15w 660nm diodes. I had been told they would make 100pce runs but I found they would not. So that design fell by the wayside.

OM

 

[PetFlora]

OM/Me2. Nice to see you both still contributing. I have run journals on other mj sites. Currently prepping for my next grow. Instead of getting a bigger LED I opted for a Quantum Bad Boy T 5 HO (8 bulb- ~ 400 watts) but with Aquarium bulbs which are not only brighter but are available in LED spectrums. The beauty here is user ability to replace, adjust, experiment. There is a thread titled something like LEDs without LEDs- My T 5 Grow. Worth a look.

Nute Question: I used DM Gold full line last grow (solved a lot of problems I had previously) and will finish them off but after studying threads on making your own nutes I decided to replace all the bottles (not that it's a big deal to mix) and go with DM Gold ONE Grow for both cycles, but during flower to add DM Potash+. Will still use Silica, Zone and for FF Saturator and Pentrator. Any thoughts?

 

[Dankbudd]

Hey Old Mac,

Was wondering If you could go into more detail on how you hooked up the solenoid to change from nutes to R/O water, and what solenoid you used?

Hope all is well...

Thanks...

 

[Dankbudd]

OldMac.... glad to see your back

 

[Dankbudd]

Hey Old Mac,

Was wondering If you could go into more detail on how you hooked up the solenoid to change from nutes to R/O water, and what solenoid you used?

Thanks...

 

[Oldmac]

Hey Old Mac,

Was wondering If you could go into more detail on how you hooked up the solenoid to change from nutes to R/O water, and what solenoid you used?

Thanks...

Hello Dankbudd, I got your PM the other day, but it would not let the reply thru....so here goes.

I got inexpensive (cheap) soleniods off Ebay from valves4projects.
They were 1/2" brass 110v, one N/C (common) and one N/O (more expensive, fewer choices) and were hooked up to a Intermatic 110v Photo Control switch. When the photo eye "sees" darkness the ckt is energized and the soleniods reverse.

Hope this helps,
OM