The Problem with Ultrasonic Foggers

[PetFlora]

Buyer beware

When you are growing via aeroponics you can push the ppms into the 2000 range. Imagine that growth versus 400 ppm (above which el cheapo foggers self destruct- including the power supply. This was told to me by the owner of Mainlandmart- a huge fog dealer- after I contacted him to complain.

 

[Oldmac]

Thanks for the heads up PetFlora I'm well aware of the limitations of pond foggers, I've used them before. In this particular case, I need to introduce fog into my EZ-Clonners so I can start to establish lateral and hair roots immediately so there is no wilt off when I put the rooted clones into a aero/fog grow tray. So at that stage nutrients are not really being used, just a little Hormex possibly.

BTW some nutrients are better then others for use in a pond foggers. There are people running Humbolts master, in the range of 800-1200ppm without too much crude build up. Still requires a toothbrush cleaning periodically but consider the cost of a 5 head, abt $100, to the Frapaplas at $600+....well most people are willing to clean the transducers. Interestingly Mainlandmart is where I have bought foggers before, lowest prices I've see on them.

 

[PetFlora]

OLMAC It would be nice if you had a thread or journal showing your roots and plants. If interested check out my journal. Lots of photos. The biggest addition (7 days ago) is a Sentinel MDT 1 timer. Lets me deep cycle feeding time of 2 seconds/4 minute pause 24/7. Combined with my high pressure pump ($90) and .9gph fog heads ($10-25) the next 4 weeks should be very interesting. Come pull up a chair

 

[Oldmac]

OLMAC It would be nice if you had a thread or journal showing your roots and plants. If interested check out my journal. Lots of photos. The biggest addition (7 days ago) is a Sentinel MDT 1 timer. Lets me deep cycle feeding time of 2 seconds/4 minute pause 24/7. Combined with my high pressure pump ($90) and .9gph fog heads ($10-25) the next 4 weeks should be very interesting. Come pull up a chair

Sorry to have been away for awhile, been in and out of the hospital, but I'm doing much better now.

Excellent timer solution, Sentinel's work great. Besides the MDT-1 which I use for the Frapa fogger, I also use a UTC-1 for temp control (for heat mostly, cooling and humidity is controlled by the ac thermostat) and a DRT-1 as a cycle timer for my high pressure pump. I also have a second DRT-1 that I use to cycle my EZ-clonners.

Most of my threads have been over at CanCom, but I'm going to make an effort to update my albums here, and do a thread or two while building my new LED light.....2100 watts nominal of LEDs to cover two trays or a 4'x8' area.

Here's a pic of my controls, plus root pics from the first experimental run, and results.

 

[Horsemanrocks]

Om Om om bring mi padre home

Om Om om bring mi padre home

It worked…..I chanted…..you’re back

Good to see you back on both forums…..always anxious for your pearls

Glad that you are recovering.

Sonnyboy.

 

[big ballin 88]

I never venture into the hydro forum, but i've been thinking about this lately. Nice to see it done and the results! Good work guys

 

[onegreenday]

I have built pond fogger based fog generators, and they can work pretty well. I call it a "bucket of fog" and it consists of a 5 head pond fogger, in a 5 gal bucket with a fan located on the lid blowing INTO the bucket and a pvc bulkhead fitting with a flexi hose attached for fog out.

In fact I may be building another one soon for myself, to introduce fog to my ez-clonners. When I do, I'll document the build and show here.

Total cost is less then $150 dollars and the fog output is pretty decent at abt 1500ml per hour. Ain't no Frapa, but pretty good.

I checked your album Oldmac and you r quite the craftsman; being sick and all it's a miracle you can craft and do all your stuff.
That's quality workmanship 4 sure;a sign of an 'old man's work'
thanks for posting your info & fine details.
Stay well brother.

 

[MediMary]

Hey mac its mimbresvalley, just trying to learn your art of fogging.

 

[PetFlora]

As mac said, it is ok for cloning, but you have a heat problem to deal with. I now use a shoe box size storage container with 2 @ 10" bubble stones for seedlings/clones. Works great, no fog hassles

 

[Oldmac]

Hey MediMary, (mimbresvalley),

Sorry I didn't see this sooner. You'll find a lot of great info here, at least a few more aero types here.

Hey PetFlora,

Long time no type.

I fixed my problem of clones comming out of the clonners and wilting off for awhile till they got more lateral roots. Instead of adding fog to the clonners I converted them to aero. Changed the original spray misters to small orifice inpingement misters and the results were more fine roots right from the clonner.

BTW, I recently came across a great pump for aero. Made by Aquatec for Durakleen it comes with a pressure switch of 200psi!
No more having to remove the pressure switch to get to 200psi, tho the SurFlo pump I've been using goes 205-210psi without it's switch. The Aquatec is quieter then the SurFlo, by a bunch.

Hope all is good by you.
OM

 

[Liam]

NO NO NO, ALL WRONG!

Everything stated in this thread wrong!

First of all, the entire point of using DRY FOG, which only an piezoelectric disk can make, is to avoid STANDING WATER, and considerably save on nutes.

I have NEVER seen anyone do a proper foggerponic grow, I alone seem to be the only guy who has a fucking clue about this shit. Blame the RCMP for shutting down Overgrow.com, where foggerponics was born. Someone may remember my thread on my foggerponic Coliseum:



Look at the fuzz on that root, unless all your roots look like that, you are not doing it right. See the water droplets? That is standing water, and it kills fuzzy roots, standing water also breeds bacteria. Those pics are from my first attempt to make a proper foggerponic grow, it didn't work well enough, and it took a couple years for me to get it right.

The end result, is a mass of fuzzy roots, and a plant that needs only a fraction of the nutes aeroponic requires, and is COMPLETELY sterile, NO ROOT ROT POSSIBLE.

The peizoelectric disk in the Shira frapa is exactly the same as one in an ultrasonic humidfier or pond fogger (not counting protective coating), I spoke with the creators and discovered their method to create smaller dry fog droplets is simply to funnel the fog through a hose. So it is a complete SCAM, dry fog molecules evaporate/shrink constantly, so just add time and you get smaller dry fog molecules. There is NO PROOF that one dry fog is superior to another.

I could spill the beans on my methods, but FUCK that, I'll give you all some hints though:

1. You have to cool the rootzone air, but not the nute solution or resulting dry fog.
2. You must manually clean the piezoelectric disk, I made an automated cleaning system, but a q-tip once a day works too.
3. You cannot let the humidity in the rootzone get too high, or standing water will form and run down the roots flattening them all.
4. The rootzone dry fog must be well contained, as it will burn your plant leaves.
5. You can foliar feed with dry fog, even during flowering, I lost a lot of crops learning how to properly do this.


I hate that you people don't know that foggerponics is about dry fog... that stupid TAG thread is a bunch of BS from an idiot. Wet roots are wet roots, the only effect of high pressure misting is better oxygenation (cant compete w/dry fog), and better dispersion (can't even compare to dry fog), and a loud expensive grow.

Maybe I should just create a new name for proper foggerponics... dryfoggerponics? Sorry if I sound like a dick, I'm just pissed that all my threads on this topic died with Overgrow, and years later foggerponics has turned into a bastardized version of aeroponics.

Oldmac, you're not the only one that was conned into buying the Shira Frapa, although it has features you can't buy elsewhere. I easily made a better version for a $100, with a self cleaning disk that uses gravity and not fans to move the fog, with a condensation sensor for automatic fog regulating.

Oh, you do not need to aerate or cool your dry fog nutes, but I still do to avoid nutes settling out and bacteria growing which messes up the nutrient ratio. I have not had any success with dry fogging organic nutes, I think the molecules are too large, and they settle out of the dry fog, I've never tried it with beneficial bacteria. Since my rootzone is sterile, and nutes in theory instantly absorbed, I havn't seen a reason todo so.

Lucas formula doesn't work to get the max dry fog PPM, but it works alright.

 

[zenoonez]

Liam by all means brother, tell us how it is done. I have always found fogponics/aeroponics to be very interesting but not necessarily practical so if you have the info cornered please do tell. We would all love a highly detailed thread on how to do it. Oh just remember, we love pictures Seriously man, send me a link and I will watch a show.

 

[Liam]

Long story short, I want to grow weed legally, and once I can, I will also manufacture and sell my rotary-garden invention commercially.

Until then, I need my invention to be secret, which means no pictures that link my system to me growing illegally for now. Plus some my ideas can easily be stolen from pictures by the current rotary manufacturers.

Trust me, I'm using all my will power to not post pictures and give away details, I really want to... I want to gloat and impress people... but I know that I need to restrain those feelings and guarantee my economic future.

There are merits to dry fogging to the point there is standing water... for cloning especially, anyone can easily just use RO water to add dry fog to their nft, or aeroponic system. It does help deliver oxygen, and also in the event your pumps die, it will extend their life for awhile.

So give that a shot first, designing your system to be free of standing water is completely dependent on your system, either a humidty sensor, or condensation sensor (easy enough to build) is really all you need to know, after that it is trial and error. I don't use fans to move the fog, as mine falls down onto the rotary garden exterior.

 

[Oldmac]

excuse me?

excuse me?

Wow, first post I've made in months seems to have set off a flammer! I really can't believe such a responce to a pretty benign post.

Liam, let me respond to some of your misconceptions, and excuse me for editing your quote to remove some of your infamatory shit, like the large bold red crap.

Everything stated in this thread wrong!
That is your opinion, I have shared factual info that is correct to the best of my knowledge.

First of all, the entire point of using DRY FOG, which only an piezoelectric disk can make, is to avoid STANDING WATER, and considerably save on nutes.
You can create a dry sterile fog using ultra-sonics that are not based on piezoelectric disks. Standing water or more correctly condensation is definately the point that indicates enough fog is present. But even that gets used at the bottom of a grow tray by the tap or water roots.

I have NEVER seen anyone do a proper foggerponic grow, I alone seem to be the only guy who has a fucking clue about this shit.
Apparently in your mind you are.

The peizoelectric disk in the Shira frapa is exactly the same as one in an ultrasonic humidfier or pond fogger (not counting protective coating), I spoke with the creators and discovered their method to create smaller dry fog droplets is simply to funnel the fog through a hose. So it is a complete SCAM, dry fog molecules evaporate/shrink constantly, so just add time and you get smaller dry fog molecules. There is NO PROOF that one dry fog is superior to another.
This is absolutely WRONG. While I'm not sure what the original Shira unit used even tho I saw one in action in Isreal abt 15 years ago. The FrapaPlas fogger uses a ultrasonic unit that looks like a small grenade, placed in the "torch" of the unit, it is not the same as a pond fogger peizoelectric disk! It does use a fan to move the fog, thru a PVC tube, but you need to get the fog from the unit and to a tray somehow. I didn't read anywhere a claim that one dry fog is superior to another, but we were discussing the problems associated with "pond foggers".

I could spill the beans on my methods, but FUCK that, I'll give you all some hints though:
I find this statement most very enlightening. Just before responding to this I saw a post of yours dealing with co2 extraction of oil; and there you stated something to the effect that there are better, purier solvents to use, but what fun would it be to tell everyone.
1. You have to cool the rootzone air, but not the nute solution or resulting dry fog.
Rootzone temps in my trays stay at or just below ambient room temps. It is a sealed room with AC so maybe that keeps the rootzone correct.
2. You must manually clean the piezoelectric disk, I made an automated cleaning system, but a q-tip once a day works too.
This is one of the problems associated with piezoelectric disks. In my fogfognugen set up I too have an automated cleaning system. When the lights go out, a photo cell detects that and switches 2 valves, one to cut off nutrient supply and another to turn on a direct RO water feed to the unit. Once the pint or so of nutrients is used up (during the beginning of the dark period) the unit is "cleaned" with RO untill lights on.
3. You cannot let the humidity in the rootzone get too high, or standing water will form and run down the roots flattening them all.
If you are losing fine lateral roots to simple condensation then something else is wrong.
4. The rootzone dry fog must be well contained, as it will burn your plant leaves.
Seems to be a given that what occurs above "ground" should be seperate to the root zone.
5. You can foliar feed with dry fog, even during flowering, I lost a lot of crops learning how to properly do this.
In my perticular setup that consists of 2 fogfognugen units (4- 4'x4' trays) each tray is on a different schedule, foliar feeding is a must. There is a base line nutrient level that is low so that no excess nutrients remain in the finished plant.

I hate that you people don't know that foggerponics is about dry fog... that stupid TAG thread is a bunch of BS from an idiot. Wet roots are wet roots, the only effect of high pressure misting is better oxygenation (cant compete w/dry fog), and better dispersion (can't even compare to dry fog), and a loud expensive grow.
I make a point to people that I use aero/fog in these trays, and I describe it as wet fog/dry fog for that very reason. But TAG is not that much different then fog; just the amount of sub 5 micron particules is less with TAG then with dry fog.

Maybe I should just create a new name for proper foggerponics... dryfoggerponics? Sorry if I sound like a dick, I'm just pissed that all my threads on this topic died with Overgrow, and years later foggerponics has turned into a bastardized version of aeroponics.
How about drydickfoggerponics? Sorry for the loss of your old threads....now suck it up and act like a man.

Oldmac, you're not the only one that was conned into buying the Shira Frapa, although it has features you can't buy elsewhere. I easily made a better version for a $100, with a self cleaning disk that uses gravity and not fans to move the fog, with a condensation sensor for automatic fog regulating.
Conned??? Sorry but I had experimented with pond foggers, did my homework and decided to go with the Frapaplas fogger. Glad I did, much less BS then pond foggers. Oh, I was so conned I have bought 2 more, one for a build for someone else and decided since we lean so heavy on the Frapa that a spare unit should be on hand. Over two years on that first one and NO problems but one day it could stop and it would be nice to have a spare on hand.

Oh, you do not need to aerate or cool your dry fog nutes, but I still do to avoid nutes settling out and bacteria growing which messes up the nutrient ratio. I have not had any success with dry fogging organic nutes, I think the molecules are too large, and they settle out of the dry fog, I've never tried it with beneficial bacteria. Since my rootzone is sterile, and nutes in theory instantly absorbed, I havn't seen a reason todo so.
Please re-read this paragraph it seems perplexed. On one hand you talk about bacteria growing but you repeat that the rootzone is sterile.
BTW the best why I've found not to mess up nutrient ratios is to aero/fog to waste. I do not believe in recirculating nutrients....in any system.

Lucas formula doesn't work to get the max dry fog PPM, but it works alright.
I have no clue about Lucas formula, I use DutchMasters.

Just to update what I do with fogfognugen;

The TAG side runs 205-210psi and is on for 5 SECONDS every 1/2 hr during lights on.
The Frapaplas fogger runs 15 minute cycles, abt half way between the TAG cycle, 24 hours a day.

One fogfognugen uses 4-TI Probloom LED lights (1320w total) and the other uses 2- 1000w PSMH (2080w total w/ballasts) using 3k bulbs for most of the time and last 10 days or so uses 10K bulb.

While I don't like to talk about weights, each tray produces 2-2 1/2 pounds (depending on strain) dry finished bud. Plus one tray finishes every 2 weeks.

I'm quite pleased (so's my partner in that grow) with the results of a bastardized aero/fog set-up. It's a producer.

OM

I hope when you can grow legal that plant count doesn't enter in to it. SOG growers seem to be not wanted in the legal states or provinces.

 

[Liam]

The rootzone is sterile, but the nutrient solution may not be, as water rarely is. I shouldn't say sterile though, you can never truly achieve 100% sterile with water. I just mean root rot won't occur because there isn't standing water for it to multiple in. If you have standing water, it is not sterile.. even tap water with chlorine isnt 100% sterile. You can make if almost sterile... but time plus standing water equals bacteria growth, even milk that is pasteurized is loaded with new bacteria by the time its in your fridge.

Root rot isn't hard to solve though, didn't mean to make it sound like only dry fog can beat root rot.


The ShiraFrapa has good features, but there is NOTHING special about its piezoelectric disk, we will just have to agree to disagree.

I love that you used blue text, if I wasn't heading back home today I'd respond properly to all your points because I respect people that put effort into their posts. If you check my post history, you'll see I haven't posted here in about 2 years... I live off the grid, and only have internet at this moment because I'm home for the Holidays, unfortunately I'm leaving very soon.

I want you to try dry fog, try to get those fuzzy roots... that is all I'm getting at.

Oh, and when I come back online, maybe in 2011 sometime... I'll totally name my method 'drydickfoggerponics', I like how you roll.

Someone messaged me asking what solvents I was talking about, I told him about MEK... also there are new refrigerants that might work, but I've never tried. People are scared of MEK, but do a residue test and see for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanone


My big red text was hyperbole btw, I'd rather people be insulted and interested than bored. k thnx bye

 

[Rednick]

Someone messaged me asking what solvents I was talking about, I told him about MEK... also there are new refrigerants that might work, but I've never tried. People are scared of MEK, but do a residue test and see for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanone

Maybe if you are making fucking drugs.

Fuck it, lets use Freon.

No, I think CO2 is still the best (or butane, b/c of it's atmospheric critical points). Plus there is plenty of literature on it regarding the decaffination of coffee beans.

Or, more recently, the decontamination of soil.

 

[Rednick]

Don't use MEK!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't use MEK!!!!!!!!!!!

"Part of the reason you may get dirty looks about MEK and a number of other products is some less-than-legal use. MEK was very popular in the clandestine drug manufacturing world for a while and made it to the DEA watch list. There are other products that will accomplish your needs without some of the hazards and fewer raised eyebrows. "
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3684353/anchors_3684353/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#3684353

DO NOT USE METHYL ETHYL KETONE!!!!!

 

[Dankbudd]

Oldmac:
- Do you add any nutes to the fogger?

-What EC/CF do you run, and what ph?

-How many 4x8 tray can I run on one frapaplas fogger? Did you ever find out how many jets per 4x4 trays you could run under 200psi?

-How big is your res for your 4 4x4 trays?

-Somewhere I read the fogger needs to run a clean cycle??? Is this a built into a mechanism on the frapaplas? How often does it need to be cleaned?

-How tall do you let the plants get in veg?

Sorry for all the questions.... Im sure ill have alot more

Thank you so much if you can answer anything...

 

[Oldmac]

Hello Dankbudd, I'll try to answer all your questions.

Oldmac:
- Do you add any nutes to the fogger?
Yes, both the aero misters and Frapa fogger run nutrient solution.

-What EC/CF do you run, and what ph?
I use RO water that's PHed to 5.5 and has 50ppm of well water added. Not sure what the EC is but I never go above 40% solution. I mix my nutrients (DutchMaster Gold) for 2 gallons, but use 5+ gallons of water.

-How many 4x8 tray can I run on one frapaplas fogger? Did you ever find out how many jets per 4x4 trays you could run under 200psi?
The MDFD-1 Frapa puts out .5 liters per hour. There is a formula (I'll try and find) that calculates how long it needs to run to raise relative humidity at certian temperatures for a certian amount of cubic meters of space. This is something that I've dialed back in the last year or so, I was getting too much condensation. The Frapa fogger is capable of filling a 10'x10'x6' room if left to run long enough.

-How big is your res for your 4 4x4 trays?
I don't use a rez, I mix nutrients (and use plain RO water) from 5 gal plastic jugs. The pump draws directly from these plus I do not recirculate nutes, I aero/fog to waste. If you check out my album on the building of "fogfognugen" you'll see the jugs are even color coded for thier use.

-Somewhere I read the fogger needs to run a clean cycle??? Is this a built into a mechanism on the frapaplas? How often does it need to be cleaned?
It should be cleaned periodically with CLR by removing the large ultrsonic head from the "torch". In my setup, I have a automated system that when the lights go off soleniods change and RO water goes directly to the fogger. Once it uses the pint or so of nutes (in it's rez) it sees nothing but RO water till the lights come back on. This helps to keep the fogger clean, tho about once a year I remove the part from the troch for cleaning.

-How tall do you let the plants get in veg?
I veg in EZ-clonners that have been modified with an external pump, some misters replaced with smaller impingement nozzles others blocked off and that have had the plant holes enlarged to hold 2" net pots with collars (it was too hard to get roots into net pots when using just collars in the clonner). I did these modifications to develope fine air roots right from the beginning of cuttings to avoid "aero droop" trying to go from hydro culture to aero/fog. I veg till the plants are abt 8" to 10"

Sorry for all the questions.... Im sure ill have alot more

No problem, I still probably need to flesh out some things here.

Thank you so much if you can answer anything...

Since I have 4 trays and doing a perpetual grow, I try to stick to 8 week flowering times with a tray finishing every 2 weeks. Each tray has just one strain from one (grand)mother, to ensure uniform growth. Since I harvest every two weeks, I run nutes one week then RO water the next, to help clean out the plants to be harvested. During the off week (RO only) the other 3 trays are foliar fed using DM Liquid Light. My current cycle times are; for aero side 5sec on (takes abt 1+sec to come up to full pressure) then 15 min off. 5 minutes after the aero burst, the Frapa fogger runs for 5 min then is off another 5 mins, then aero burst again. I use a Sentinel MDT-1 to control fogger (plus main lights) and a DMT-1 to control pump for the aero side. The fogger is on a 24hr cycle and the aero pump is on during lights on only, the timers synchronize with each other at lights on.

OK that's a bunch of it, hope it's clear.
OM

I'll post the frapa run chart, when I can get it.

 

[Oldmac]

Hey Dankbudd,

I realized I missed one question. I run 8 mister nozzles (.012 impingment type) per tray. That's 32 misters off one pump a SurFlo 8030 that I think was a 160psi, but with the limit switch removed it got to 240psi on one tray for the first experimental runs. Dialed it back to abt 200psi and ran nice. With the 32 misters it runs flat out at 205-210psi.

I've come across a pump made by Aquatec for Duraclean that has a limit switch of 200psi, it's much quieter then the SurFlo.

Here's the pdf from FrapaPlas for calculating run times for the fogger. There is a mistake in the example for coefficent, tho the math is correct, must be a typo. It is correct in the chart 20C (68F) = .0171. Hmmm won't let me upload so here it is: www.frapaplas.com then look around, MDFD-1 info there, it's a pdf.

OM