LoneWolf424
New member
So I ran across this. I think it sums it, but to note I LOVE great white and plant success, as he's kinda dogin' em. Havin trouble quoting from diferent forum Its from Spurr and its in the ammend w micro vs not.
Spurr:
I just wanted to drop in real fast and post up some facts about AM fungi ("Arbuscular Mycorrhizal" fungi, a type of endomycorrhizal fungi), formally called VAM ("Vesicular-Arbuscular Mycorrhiza"). I noticed quite of few misconceptions in this thread and I hope to help provide a few corrections and insight. AM fungi are greatly misunderstood and misrepresented by most companies selling AM fungi. I think some of the points below may affect this thread in a positive manner:
1. P at the level of > 30 ppm P (not P2O5) greatly hinders AM fungi. Once P exceeds ~30-35 ppm sporulation is greatly hindered (pretty much stops), as well as infection of host roots and growth of "mycosphere" (re "extraradical mycelium"). Thus, if a conventional grower is using the Lucas formula, or anything with > ~30 ppm P, or if the soilless solution accrues > 30-35 ppm, AM fungi are not going to help the plant.
2. Once P levels are high enough (i.e., sufficient, at least ~20-30 ppm), the plant will reduce the 'food' (sugars) it gives to the AM fungi. This is because the plant doesn't need the AM fungi any longer because the plant has sufficient P. When the plant stops feeding the AM fungi, the AM fungi are greatly hindered ...
3. AM fungi are "fungi imperfecti", not "fungi perfecti". That means AM fungi (and any endomycorrhizal fungi) do not form fruit bodies, that is, they do not form mushrooms. So, if a grower sees fungi fruiting (producing mushrooms) it isn't from any type of AM fungi or other endomycorrhizal fungi.
4. Many spores in a commercial freeze-dried spore product will not germinate, and in fact, Dr. David Douds Ph.D. (a renown AM fungi researcher) told me on the phone that many of the commercial AM fungi products he tested had little to no germination! (all AM fungi products one can by online or at a store are freeze dried spores)
5. Many AM fungi products also include Trichomera spp., another type of fungi. However, Trichoderma spp. is a parasitic fungi, and there is strong evidence it will 'consume' AM fungi as spores and young hyphae, as well as mycelium. This isn't so much of a problem if Trichodram spp. is added after AM fungi has started infecting the host roots. The moral is, do not buy AM fungi product that has Trichoderma spp., if it can be avoided.
6. It takes at least a couple of weeks for AM fungi spores to germinate and start infecting host roots. Thus, if a grower adds Plant Success, even *if* the spores germinate (which is far from guaranteed) it will be at least 3-4 weeks until the host has been infected to a sufficient degree (ex., > 15-20% of root biomass-length). I have grown AM fungi many times using Bahia grass as host and a vermiculte/compost or vermiclute/vermicompost medium; I have used my microscope to that end.
7. Increased Co2 in media will increase growth rates of many AM fungi ...
8. I dislike Dr. Mike Amaranthus Ph.D business practices, from http://www.mycorrhizae.com/. Dr. Amaranthus's company is the source of AM fungi for Great White (i.e., Plant Success), and other brands selling AM fungi products in hydro stores. I dislike Dr. Amaranthus's business because I believe he is being disingenuous with some products he is selling, e.g., inclusion of Trichoderma spp. while refusing to show me data proving their tests found Trichoderma spp. did not hinder AM fungi and instead help AM fungi. Not only that, but by inferring his company produces their own products, which is false according to a good friend of mine* he is further being disingenuous.
* My good friend told me a contact he has at Premier (the peat moss company), told him Premier sells Dr. Amaranthus all Dr. Amaranthus's AM fungi products wholesale, and Dr. Amaranthus simply re-packages.
9. Addition of humic acid, yucca, glycine, carbs, etc., to AM fungi products does not help AM fungi; it's not 'food' for AM fungi. It's just fluff to make a person think they are getting a 'better' product.
10. It's not possible to know if, and to what degree, AM fungi may have infected host roots without (slightly) complicated root staining and "arbuscule" identification inside said root(s). See the following pages for assay guides, the most common assay for root infection (aka "association") is MIP ("Mean Infection Percentage"). One method a grower could use to see if the host is infected is to look at the root(s) under a microscope to see if hyphae are extruding from the root; however, that isn't the best method because it doesn't identify arbuscles inside the roots:
(assay explanations) http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/methods/assays/assayindex.htm
http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/methods/myc...ycorrindex.htm
http://mycorrhizas.info/method.html
11. Here are a few good sources of sound science on AM fungi, further reading if anyone is interested:
International Culture Collection of (Vesicular) Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi: link (this is where I tend to get live cultures)
Mycorrhizal Associations: The Web Resource: link
Mycorrhiza Literature Exchange: link
12. Here are two worthwhile reads from INVAM:
"Culture methods and inoculum production: A reality check"
INVAM, Newsletter Vol. 4, No. 2; September, 1994
http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/otherinfo/a.../culturing.htm
"The relationship between colonization and sporulation as affected by environment and competition"
INVAM Newsletter Vol. 2, No. 2
http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/otherinfo/a...ompetition.htm
So, what does that all mean you may ask:
It means in most cases for indoor growers, especially for conventional growers, AM fungi is not going to infect host roots (or will not infect to a worthwhile degree). That means I highly doubt this side by side thread is going to give useful data or evidence, even though I commend SKAGITMAGIC on the thread idea. I think this side by side could/should be conducted differently to get useable data/results.
Spurr:
I just wanted to drop in real fast and post up some facts about AM fungi ("Arbuscular Mycorrhizal" fungi, a type of endomycorrhizal fungi), formally called VAM ("Vesicular-Arbuscular Mycorrhiza"). I noticed quite of few misconceptions in this thread and I hope to help provide a few corrections and insight. AM fungi are greatly misunderstood and misrepresented by most companies selling AM fungi. I think some of the points below may affect this thread in a positive manner:
1. P at the level of > 30 ppm P (not P2O5) greatly hinders AM fungi. Once P exceeds ~30-35 ppm sporulation is greatly hindered (pretty much stops), as well as infection of host roots and growth of "mycosphere" (re "extraradical mycelium"). Thus, if a conventional grower is using the Lucas formula, or anything with > ~30 ppm P, or if the soilless solution accrues > 30-35 ppm, AM fungi are not going to help the plant.
2. Once P levels are high enough (i.e., sufficient, at least ~20-30 ppm), the plant will reduce the 'food' (sugars) it gives to the AM fungi. This is because the plant doesn't need the AM fungi any longer because the plant has sufficient P. When the plant stops feeding the AM fungi, the AM fungi are greatly hindered ...
3. AM fungi are "fungi imperfecti", not "fungi perfecti". That means AM fungi (and any endomycorrhizal fungi) do not form fruit bodies, that is, they do not form mushrooms. So, if a grower sees fungi fruiting (producing mushrooms) it isn't from any type of AM fungi or other endomycorrhizal fungi.
4. Many spores in a commercial freeze-dried spore product will not germinate, and in fact, Dr. David Douds Ph.D. (a renown AM fungi researcher) told me on the phone that many of the commercial AM fungi products he tested had little to no germination! (all AM fungi products one can by online or at a store are freeze dried spores)
5. Many AM fungi products also include Trichomera spp., another type of fungi. However, Trichoderma spp. is a parasitic fungi, and there is strong evidence it will 'consume' AM fungi as spores and young hyphae, as well as mycelium. This isn't so much of a problem if Trichodram spp. is added after AM fungi has started infecting the host roots. The moral is, do not buy AM fungi product that has Trichoderma spp., if it can be avoided.
6. It takes at least a couple of weeks for AM fungi spores to germinate and start infecting host roots. Thus, if a grower adds Plant Success, even *if* the spores germinate (which is far from guaranteed) it will be at least 3-4 weeks until the host has been infected to a sufficient degree (ex., > 15-20% of root biomass-length). I have grown AM fungi many times using Bahia grass as host and a vermiculte/compost or vermiclute/vermicompost medium; I have used my microscope to that end.
7. Increased Co2 in media will increase growth rates of many AM fungi ...
8. I dislike Dr. Mike Amaranthus Ph.D business practices, from http://www.mycorrhizae.com/. Dr. Amaranthus's company is the source of AM fungi for Great White (i.e., Plant Success), and other brands selling AM fungi products in hydro stores. I dislike Dr. Amaranthus's business because I believe he is being disingenuous with some products he is selling, e.g., inclusion of Trichoderma spp. while refusing to show me data proving their tests found Trichoderma spp. did not hinder AM fungi and instead help AM fungi. Not only that, but by inferring his company produces their own products, which is false according to a good friend of mine* he is further being disingenuous.
* My good friend told me a contact he has at Premier (the peat moss company), told him Premier sells Dr. Amaranthus all Dr. Amaranthus's AM fungi products wholesale, and Dr. Amaranthus simply re-packages.
9. Addition of humic acid, yucca, glycine, carbs, etc., to AM fungi products does not help AM fungi; it's not 'food' for AM fungi. It's just fluff to make a person think they are getting a 'better' product.
10. It's not possible to know if, and to what degree, AM fungi may have infected host roots without (slightly) complicated root staining and "arbuscule" identification inside said root(s). See the following pages for assay guides, the most common assay for root infection (aka "association") is MIP ("Mean Infection Percentage"). One method a grower could use to see if the host is infected is to look at the root(s) under a microscope to see if hyphae are extruding from the root; however, that isn't the best method because it doesn't identify arbuscles inside the roots:
(assay explanations) http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/methods/assays/assayindex.htm
http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/methods/myc...ycorrindex.htm
http://mycorrhizas.info/method.html
11. Here are a few good sources of sound science on AM fungi, further reading if anyone is interested:
International Culture Collection of (Vesicular) Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi: link (this is where I tend to get live cultures)
Mycorrhizal Associations: The Web Resource: link
Mycorrhiza Literature Exchange: link
12. Here are two worthwhile reads from INVAM:
"Culture methods and inoculum production: A reality check"
INVAM, Newsletter Vol. 4, No. 2; September, 1994
http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/otherinfo/a.../culturing.htm
"The relationship between colonization and sporulation as affected by environment and competition"
INVAM Newsletter Vol. 2, No. 2
http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/otherinfo/a...ompetition.htm
So, what does that all mean you may ask:
It means in most cases for indoor growers, especially for conventional growers, AM fungi is not going to infect host roots (or will not infect to a worthwhile degree). That means I highly doubt this side by side thread is going to give useful data or evidence, even though I commend SKAGITMAGIC on the thread idea. I think this side by side could/should be conducted differently to get useable data/results.
